Europe should we stay in or get out?

[Root 66 Woodshop]

As far as I can tell - ye all a bit daft what with the name calling and negativity... no one really knows what lies ahead for the UK and until anything is set up, no one will... the only people that deserve to receive negativity are the callous and ignorant murdering scumbags from ISIS.

With all due respect to all, the last thing that should be on anyone's mind right now is what Brexit is going to mean for us in what... 2 years time? - We should be thinking about those innocent people that are being butchered now... I honestly thought that we wouldn't be seeing such atrocities in my lifetime - I'm far from racist, but I honestly believe now that religion should be eradicated for good.

That's my political stance right now - whether you like it or not - tough... No good has ever come from religion.

 

[john1989]

As far as I can tell - ye all a bit daft what with the name calling and negativity... no one really knows what lies ahead for the UK and until anything is set up, no one will... the only people that deserve to receive negativity are the callous and ignorant murdering scumbags from ISIS.

With all due respect to all, the last thing that should be on anyone's mind right now is what Brexit is going to mean for us in what... 2 years time? - We should be thinking about those innocent people that are being butchered now... I honestly thought that we wouldn't be seeing such atrocities in my lifetime - I'm far from racist, but I honestly believe now that religion should be eradicated for good.

That's my political stance right now - whether you like it or not - tough... No good has ever come from religion.

Eradicating religion will not eradicate nutcases.

Given that all religions condemn murder, even terrorists that carry out these acts in the name of religion can't be very religious.

 

[Ian J]

We should be thinking about those innocent people that are being butchered now... I honestly thought that we wouldn't be seeing such atrocities in my lifetime - I'm far from racist, but I honestly believe now that religion should be eradicated for good.

Surely if religion was banned the brainwashed would just find some other reason to murder innocent people after all the Ku Klux Klan and Mau Mau hate and killed people just for being a different colour whilst the Hutu and Tutsi are happy to murder just for being from a different tribe

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

Sorry Ian,

KKK killed under the banner of Christianity - stupid is as stupid does.

Mau Mau was all due to British soldiers - British Christian Soldiers attempting to take over the world i.e. "oh look a poor decrepit country - let's fool them into thinking we're here to help when in actual fact - let's claim the land! of course they were p****d off - it's exactly the same as the thousands of ignorant people in the UK with regards to the immigrants in this country... "they're only here to take our money - our medical supplies blah blah blah* ) - At the end of the day Britain had no right to go into a foreign country, claiming the land as their own and then teaching Christianity to the natives.


Hutu and Tutsi - get a grip Ian, seriously a civil war that had nothing to do with "just because they're from a different tribe"... it is well known that the Hutu and Tutsi were originally the same tribe which was split by again, foreigners taking over the country... i.e. French, Belgium and Britain.

 

[Ian J]

Sorry Ian,

KKK killed under the banner of Christianity - stupid is as stupid does.

Mau Mau was all due to British soldiers - British Christian Soldiers attempting to take over the world i.e. "oh look a poor decrepit country - let's fool them into thinking we're here to help when in actual fact - let's claim the land! of course they were p****d off - it's exactly the same as the thousands of ignorant people in the UK with regards to the immigrants in this country... "they're only here to take our money - our medical supplies blah blah blah* ) - At the end of the day Britain had no right to go into a foreign country, claiming the land as their own and then teaching Christianity to the natives.

Hutu and Tutsi - get a grip Ian, seriously a civil war that had nothing to do with "just because they're from a different tribe"... it is well known that the Hutu and Tutsi were originally the same tribe which was split by again, foreigners taking over the country... i.e. French, Belgium and Britain.

As I said " if religion was banned the brainwashed would just find some other reason to murder innocent people"

 

[Newchodge]

As I said " if religion was banned the brainwashed would just find some other reason to murder innocent people"

I think you mean that those who lust after power would find some other way of controlling the masses.

 

[Ian J]

I think you mean that those who lust after power would find some other way of controlling the masses.

No. I don't mean that at all

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

Every "brain-washed" person out there Ian is "brain-washed" because of religion.

People kill under the banner that they fight for... e.g. Christianity.

Remove the religion - what are they fighting for exactly? Freedom of what? the prosperity of what? the continuation of what?

nothing really - other than survival of the fittest.

I'm watching a series at the moment called The Last Ship... quite interesting to say the least... American's being portrayed as the "Saviours" - yet al qaeda and Russians are the bad dudes? (I'm only up to chapter 4)... these are only segmented into categories because of what our history has taught us and them and continue to teach the children of tomorrow's world.

Look at Kim Jong Un... he's got the power to push that button... not because of Relgious views... but because he can do! He couldn't give two hoots whether you were Indian, Pakistani, English or the tooth fairy... if he decides to push it... it's Go bye bye time.

 

[MBE1]

It's a shame business people cannot at least be respectful of each other on threads, as mentioned no-one has a clue regarding the future, all anyone can do is have belief they will overcome future problems on way or another.

 

[Cobby]

And that's what makes it impossible to have a reasoned debate with you.

You used a (frankly unbelievable) anecdote about your own behaviour as justification to tell people they shouldn't still be commenting on or arguing about leaving the EU. If you don't know why that's not a valid reason or argument, then I honestly don't know what to tell you.

 

[Toby Willows]

You used a (frankly unbelievable) anecdote about your own behaviour as justification to tell people they shouldn't still be commenting on or arguing about leaving the EU. If you don't know why that's not a valid reason or argument, then I honestly don't know what to tell you.

You still don't get it.

Move on, I always do. You can debate how we move forward, what may or may not happen. Yes we all do that with politics. But you don't keep debating the actually friggin, unchangeable outcome for months after.

 

[Cobby]

As far as I can tell - ye all a bit daft what with the name calling and negativity... no one really knows what lies ahead for the UK

You're arguing with a tautology. Of course no-one will know anything - they can't until it has already happened. We can and do make a number of predictions of varying degrees of accuracy using historical data for presumptions. Using this historical data very strongly suggests bad things for the economy but the specifics of how bad are difficult because there is no historical data for a country leaving the EU after being integrated with it for 40 years. People getting upset about the lack of fine-detail on a generally downward curve seem to be somewhat missing the point.

With all due respect to all, the last thing that should be on anyone's mind right now is what Brexit is going to mean for us in what... 2 years time? - We should be thinking about those innocent people that are being butchered now... I honestly thought that we wouldn't be seeing such atrocities in my lifetime - I'm far from racist, but I honestly believe now that religion should be eradicated for good.

These aren't mutually exclusive. I can feel sympathy for the victims of these atrocities, as I do for similar atrocities all over the world including the developing nations (have a read about the Antibalaka in central africa), and *still* be concerned about the economy in 2 years time - life and businesses continue on.
Oh and don't worry, it's not racist to dislike religion, religions are a lifestyle choice not an ethnicity.

 

[Cobby]

Eradicating religion will not eradicate nutcases.

Given that all religions condemn murder, even terrorists that carry out these acts in the name of religion can't be very religious.

Religions generally condemn murder and condone it in equal measure.

Surely if religion was banned the brainwashed would just find some other reason to murder innocent people after all the Ku Klux Klan and Mau Mau hate and killed people just for being a different colour whilst the Hutu and Tutsi are happy to murder just for being from a different tribe

That's true to an extent - religious labels are used for actions driven by other causes - e.g. anger, frustration, mental health issues.

However, it's also fair to say religion has a good track record of amplifying these tendencies and of course it's also the cause of millennia of hatred and wars. I think the world would be better off without religion but the cure for religion is education and we're a long way off having reasonably acceptable levels of education world-wide.

But this is a politics thread, not a religious one, so I'm wary of straying any further from the point.

 

[Cobby]

Move on, I always do. You can debate how we move forward, what may or may not happen. Yes we all do that with politics. But you don't keep debating the actually friggin, unchangeable outcome for months after.

Why not?

 

[Toby Willows]

Why not?

Grief.

Because it's unproductive and backward thinking. In business, life and leisure you play the cards you have NOW. Not those you wish you had. Sure, debate it for a few days or maybe a week, but no longer. As I said in the past I've lost a vote or two in the boardroom (that's overselling it a bit, it was usually a function room at the local Toby Carvery), if I'd returned two weeks later, let alone months, still moaning on about the results I would have been voted off the board. You get on with it and move forward.

Unless you are studying politics in school, college or uni'.

 

[WebFixer]

- Christianity, especially Catholicism, forbids killing humans, except in special circumstances e.g. the Just War doctrine. Islam allows the conquest, killing and expropriation of non-Muslims as a matter of doctrine, AFAIK.

- To say "all religions are evil/stupid/insert patronising phrase here" or "all/most politicians are corrupt" is just facile. And untrue.

- UK democracy is pretty sound. It's weaker in other EU states. You want some public decision to go your way? Better have a few brown envelopes handy.

- 'Ireland' didn't re-run the referendums because 'it' wanted to. Errrrr ... what's the point of re-running a public vote, which is supposed to decide something, except you want to throw public money and scare tactics to swing it the other way next time around.

- If the deficits of being in the EU outweigh the benefits, then we should leave. Simple logic. At the time of writing, the dire consequences trumpeted about Brexit haven't manifested. It greatly undermines the Remainers arguments.

- What negotiators should do with the EU is play hardball and expect no quarter from the other side. Ireland and Greece are examples of what happens when Germany say nein. These people are not the detached, intellectual, moral gentlefolk ye seem to assume.

[Side note: The EU: redistributing wealth, while keeping a good wodge for the staff and no real accountability for the guy in the middle. Beautiful! You can see why they might get testy if you question this.]

 

[Newchodge]

Christianity, especially Catholicism, forbids killing humans

It may forbid it, but look at the history of this country. People burnt at the stake because they supported the wrong version of christianity.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

At the time of writing, the dire consequences trumpeted about Brexit haven't manifested. It greatly undermines the Remainers arguments..]

Its worse.

I find that I have woken up in a country which is rabidly right wing and racist. We have a government who also don't care about our reputation abroad. Our prime Minister only yesterday equated the Brexit vote as being 100% anti immigration in a speech in a foreign country.

We have millions of people who openly say they don't care if a hundred thousand people lose their jobs because it was "worth it to get democracy back". That so-called democracy was funded by some very undesirable people and encouraged by some very undesirable newspaper editors. A hard core of about 20 very rich people decided the referendum result. Some of those like Murdoch and Rothermere don't even live in the country for tax purposes.

Our democracy still has an unelected head of state and an unelected House of Lords.

On a personal level my savings/pension have taken a massive hit. Workers pensions have seen the pension deficit rise by well over £1 Billion in a month.

The pound has dropped dramatically which will increase prices in the long term. Just one company, Easyjet, had their costs rise by £40million in a month because of the low pound.

And that is just after a few weeks. Give it a couple of years.

 

[john1989]

Its worse.

I find that I have woken up in a country which is rabidly right wing and racist. We have a government who also don't care about our reputation abroad. Our prime Minister only yesterday equated the Brexit vote as being 100% anti immigration in a speech in a foreign country.

We have millions of people who openly say they don't care if a hundred thousand people lose their jobs because it was "worth it to get democracy back". That so-called democracy was funded by some very undesirable people and encouraged by some very undesirable newspaper editors. A hard core of about 20 very rich people decided the referendum result. Some of those like Murdoch and Rothermere don't even live in the country for tax purposes.

Our democracy still has an unelected head of state and an unelected House of Lords.

On a personal level my savings/pension have taken a massive hit. Workers pensions have seen the pension deficit rise by well over £1 Billion in a month.

The pound has dropped dramatically which will increase prices in the long term. Just one company, Easyjet, had their costs rise by £40million in a month because of the low pound.

And that is just after a few weeks. Give it a couple of years.

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...ance/2016/jul/21/brexit-eu-referendum-easyjet

 

[simon field]

He's also ignoring the positives again, investments, plans etc..

Just business as usual

 

[KM-Tiger]

Give it a couple of years.

Yes, two years of a concerted effort by the BBC and MSM to talk down the UK could well do the trick.

Meanwhile in other news ...

 

[Newchodge]

Yes, two years of a concerted effort by the BBC and MSM to talk down the UK could well do the trick.

Meanwhile in other news ...

Am I just being slow? What is MSM?

 

[KM-Tiger]

Main stream media.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...ance/2016/jul/21/brexit-eu-referendum-easyjet

Not sure what a link to a story totally unconnected to Easyjet's exchange control costs has to do with it.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Meanwhile in other news ...

Countries nearly all on the other side of the world who want to sell to us. Can you give a list of countries who want to BUY from us who are nearby and easy to ship to?

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Main stream media.

That would be the media owned by arch anti EU billionaires, Rupert Murdoch, Lord Rothermere and Richard Desmond.

 

[Toby Willows]

Countries nearly all on the other side of the world who want to sell to us. Can you give a list of countries who want to BUY from us who are nearby and easy to ship to?

What do you mean? Man with a van type shipping within mainland UK easy? Or world wide shipping which is just as simple be it to France, China or the USA. Just takes a bit longer to get to some countries. We already trade with these countries anyway, so shipping has long been sorted and efficient, so nothing to worry about there Bob.

 

[Newchodge]

Main stream media.

Thank you

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

It may forbid it, but look at the history of this country. People burnt at the stake because they supported the wrong version of christianity.

Or for being completely different such as Pagan.

I've done a family tree - unfortunately my great great great great great great great Grandpappy was murdered for being a warlock...

 

[Newchodge]

Or for being completely different such as Pagan.

I've done a family tree - unfortunately my great great great great great great great Grandpappy was murdered for being a warlock...

Have you inherited his powers? Hang on, just remembered your name, EEEEEK

 

[Ian J]

Yes, two years of a concerted effort by the BBC and MSM to talk down the UK could well do the trick.

I see that Foxtons the estate agency group had a 42% fall in profits for the half year ended June 2016 and have jumped on the bandwagon and blamed uncertainty surrounding the referendum which naturally the good Beeb have jumped on and made it the headline.

Foxtons own annual report states that London property sales have fallen due to the property tax introduced in 2015 and that the market was especially buoyant early last year as buyers bought early to beat the tax which is why income was down this year but blaming it on Brexit makes for a juicier headline

 

[Deleted member 59730]

What do you mean? Man with a van type shipping within mainland UK easy? Or world wide shipping which is just as simple be it to France, China or the USA. Just takes a bit longer to get to some countries. We already trade with these countries anyway, so shipping has long been sorted and efficient, so nothing to worry about there Bob.

I'm guessing you are someone, like Shirley, who has no direct experience of exporting.

As someone who has exported my services to Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Australia and many European countries I can assure you that it is a lot easier dealing with clients nearer to home.

 

[Cobby]

Grief.

Because it's unproductive and backward thinking. In business, life and leisure you play the cards you have NOW. Not those you wish you had. Sure, debate it for a few days or maybe a week, but no longer. As I said in the past I've lost a vote or two in the boardroom (that's overselling it a bit, it was usually a function room at the local Toby Carvery), if I'd returned two weeks later, let alone months, still moaning on about the results I would have been voted off the board. You get on with it and move forward.

Okay, so you're mixing up business and politics, but the biggest point you're missing is that we aren't simply 'complaining' or 'moaning' about it, nor are we 'having a tantrum'. It's a political discussion - a conversation - about a non-legally binding, advisory referendum result. A conversation about a thing that happened and how we all think the country should move forwards.

There are absolutely legitimate concerns over the nature, the execution, the result, the leadership, and the legality of the referendum, and of what actions come next.

If you genuinely can't see that then I'm not surprised you think this is the same as your 'vote' between Jammy Dodgers or Custard Creams in the Tuesday morning meeting with Marget and Steve about advertising.

 

[Cobby]

- Christianity, especially Catholicism, forbids killing humans, except in special circumstances e.g. the Just War doctrine. Islam allows the conquest, killing and expropriation of non-Muslims as a matter of doctrine, AFAIK.

- To say "all religions are evil/stupid/insert patronising phrase here" or "all/most politicians are corrupt" is just facile. And untrue.

Not really. All religions are stupid and/or evil. Religion itself is a seemingly benign structure with a philosophy, the major religions have ambiguous central texts deliberately ambiguous so that the followers of the religion can be given different instructions depending on circumstance. Remember that when these religions came about pretty much the only people who could read were the priests and when you can't police the entire nation what better idea that someone they can't see is policing them all the time? People are inherently corrupt and religion is a structure that allows that to play out, and why they have become what they are.

But if you think Christianity is a 'good' religion, ask yourself why you have to get halfway down the Ten Commandments before hitting "Thou shalt not kill."

- If the deficits of being in the EU outweigh the benefits, then we should leave. Simple logic. At the time of writing, the dire consequences trumpeted about Brexit haven't manifested. It greatly undermines the Remainers arguments.

Decades of economic depression haven't manifested yet? Now, there's a reason for that and I can't...quite...put my finger on it...

 

[Toby Willows]

Okay, so you're mixing up business and politics, but the biggest point you're missing is that we aren't simply 'complaining' or 'moaning' about it, nor are we 'having a tantrum'. It's a political discussion - a conversation - about a non-legally binding, advisory referendum result. A conversation about a thing that happened and how we all think the country should move forwards.

There are absolutely legitimate concerns over the nature, the execution, the result, the leadership, and the legality of the referendum, and of what actions come next.

If you genuinely can't see that then I'm not surprised you think this is the same as your 'vote' between Jammy Dodgers or Custard Creams in the Tuesday morning meeting with Marget and Steve about advertising.

It's called a analogy, Google it if it helps you understand. No confusion on my part.

Once again you either haven't read, or understood, what I posted. It's like trying to have a conversation with a know-it-all teenager.

I've given up responding to your posts on this thread simply because you haven't added anything new since the 24th June . But thanks anyway.

Oh Cobby, this may interest you, did you know referendum is legally binding?

 

[Newchodge]

Oh Cobby, this may interest you, did you know referendum is legally binding?

I didn't know that. What is your source?

 

[Toby Willows]

I didn't know that. What is your source?

Flip, that was mean't to be "isn't" Darn predictive text.

 

[Newchodge]

Flip, that was mean't to be "isn't" Darn predictive text.

LOL

 

[Cobby]

It's called a analogy, Google it if it helps you understand. No confusion on my part.

analogy
əˈnalədʒi/
noun
noun: analogy; plural noun: analogies
a comparison between one thing and another, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification.
* a thing which is comparable to something else in significant respects.

The debate around the referendum is hardly analogous to your argument over choice of biscuits. Think about that next time you're trying to call me a child because you didn't frame an argument properly.

I've given up responding to your posts on this thread simply because you haven't added anything new since the 24th June .

I'm surprised you've had time to read anything at all given the time you spend telling people to shut up, accept it and stop complaining about it.

Oh Cobby, this may interest you, did you know referendum is legally binding?

Ooh, what do you know, something of potential substance. Go on.

 

[Toby Willows]

The debate around the referendum is hardly analogous to your argument over choice of biscuits. Think about that next time you're trying to call me a child because you didn't frame an argument properly.


I'm surprised you've had time to read anything at all given the time you spend telling people to shut up, accept it and stop complaining about it.


Ooh, what do you know, something of potential substance. Go on.

OK, one last response to you on this thread. Thank you for just proving you don't read the posts but just jump in to disagree. Nuff said.