It's not over yet - EU

[KM-Tiger]

Surely it's not this easy to pull the wool over the eyes of the public?

I don't think so. It was only one of the leave campaigns that made what is obviously an exaggerated claim.

What we know is that there is £350M a week to gain. Some of that will have to be used to maintain EU grants and subsidies. For the rest I think there is general agreement from the public that more should be given to the NHS.

 

[simon field]

That's great. Really good news, except we can't start to negotiate with them until we have left the EU.

Who's gonna know though!

And what's anyone going to do about it anyway?

 

[john1989]

'Jet2 are in talks to move its legal HQ'.
So basically they're moving a plaque.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Whatever happens, whatever the budget is spent on etc, is all out of our hands.

There's no point losing sleep over it.

I don't understand how leave supporters were so passionate in fighting for this change, and have now become so complacent over what the outcome of this change will be.

People were fighting as though they were taking personal control of this country back, but now it's more like "let the politicians get on with it, let's see what happens, there's nothing we can do about it now".

There are currently organised protests around Westminster arranged by remain supporters. If anything, there should be far more leave supporters continuing to fight for their cause to pressure the Government into fulfilling what they promised.

Many leave supporters (not all), especially from the lower social classes which voted heavily in favour of leaving, have always been some of the most politically disengaged. It seems as though they came to life just for this referendum and then faded away again.

 

[KM-Tiger]

"let the politicians get on with it, let's see what happens, there's nothing we can do about it now"

Nothing is happening right now, and it won't until we get a new PM. It's unfortunate, but right now we don't really have a govt.

Beyond that if we don't like what the govt is doing, or want to change direction then we have a vote to use. That was the whole point.

 

[ShirleyM]

Welcome to politics. If we can misinterpret what you say and use it for and against you. We will ;-)

Tell me news, not history!

 

[john1989]

I don't understand how leave supporters were so passionate in fighting for this change, and have now become so complacent over what the outcome of this change will be.

People were fighting as though they were taking personal control of this country back, but now it's more like "let the politicians get on with it, let's see what happens, there's nothing we can do about it now".

There are currently organised protests around Westminster arranged by remain supporters. If anything, there should be far more leave supporters continuing to fight for their cause to pressure the Government into fulfilling what they promised.

Many leave supporters (not all), especially from the lower social classes which voted heavily in favour of leaving, have always been some of the most politically disengaged. It seems as though they came to life just for this referendum and then faded away again.

What do you expect voters to do now, Scott?

 

[boring-friday]

I don't understand how leave supporters were so passionate in fighting for this change, and have now become so complacent over what the outcome of this change will be.

People were fighting as though they were taking personal control of this country back, but now it's more like "let the politicians get on with it, let's see what happens, there's nothing we can do about it now".

There are currently organised protests around Westminster arranged by remain supporters. If anything, there should be far more leave supporters continuing to fight for their cause to pressure the Government into fulfilling what they promised.

Many leave supporters (not all), especially from the lower social classes which voted heavily in favour of leaving, have always been some of the most politically disengaged. It seems as though they came to life just for this referendum and then faded away again.

People don't generally protest when they've won something. I think most understand its going to be slower than expected seeing as Dave quit.
Expect you'll see a lot bigger protests from the lower social classes if we don't end up leaving or still have free movement

 

[bharris]

There are currently organised protests around Westminster arranged by remain supporters. If anything, there should be far more leave supporters continuing to fight for their cause to pressure the Government into fulfilling what they promised.

Many leave supporters (not all), especially from the lower social classes which voted heavily in favour of leaving, have always been some of the most politically disengaged. It seems as though they came to life just for this referendum and then faded away again.

You really need to get your head out of your arse if you think the lower social classes have just crawled back under there stones. Perhaps they aren't winging on outside parliament because they believe they have won and they are now waiting for the people who's job it is to deliver. They are also busy working many with 2-3 jobs just so they can put some food one a plate. How are they supposed to organise a fun day out in London? You need to take yourself out of the bubble you are surrounded in and just look how dissatisfied people outside of London are. All this mudslinging is only increasing the division.

 

[Ian J]

I don't understand how leave supporters were so passionate in fighting for this change, and have now become so complacent over what the outcome of this change will be.

Perhaps the "leave" supporters don't see the need for the jerking of the knees every fifteen minutes like you seem to want.

There is absolutely no point in squawking incessantly until we know exactly what the plans are for the future.

 

[Toby Willows]

This is getting boring now. Round and round in circles with the remain (aka Scott and Cobby) refusing to accept democracy or that maybe, just maybe, they could be wrong. The USA are backtracking (always a empty threat that one), and many EU countries are backtracking and want their own referendum.

How this pans out waits to be seen. But at the moment for the out voters it really does look like we made the right choice (we being the majority). Just need our political parties to grow up and get on with it.

 

[DishonestDave]

The EU has little room to maneuver in if they want to dish out economic punishment. When it comes down to it, those with money are likely to have the most influence, and the way their influence has been going for decades - freer trade. It's highly unlikely that will go out the window now.

As for Scottish Independence, in response to the question:

If a majority of people in the UK voted for the UK to leave the EU, how would you vote in another Scottish independence referendum?

Only 38% said Yes in May 2016.

I saw a poll in a Scottish newspaper that put it at 45% after the vote.

There has been a lot of hot air from remainers making up things on issues they know nothing about, such as an iron curtain going down between NIR and Eire, despite their being free movement of people in the entirety of the British Isles since 1923 and effectively before then as far back a you can go.

 

[benjaminjones]

The problem is people need to realise it was a fair vote . Those who say we didn't wan this blah blah we have ha a democratic vote and leave was the result .

Scotland need to stop wining to as they voted to remain in the uk with us. It would be different if we remained but because we left everyone wants a second chance which isn't ping to happen

 

[Newchodge]

Nothing is happening right now, and it won't until we get a new PM. It's unfortunate, but right now we don't really have a govt.

Beyond that if we don't like what the govt is doing, or want to change direction then we have a vote to use. That was the whole point.

Sorry, what vote is that?

 

[KM-Tiger]

Sorry, what vote is that?

Next GE.

 

[Newchodge]

the next General Election will not take place until after we leave the EU. How can that possibly change the direction of what will already have happened?

 

[pjperez]

What we know is that there is £350M a week to gain.

That's just not true. I'm not sure where do you get your information from, but it was clear even before the 24th that those numbers were absolutely wrong. It is around a third of that, so poof! there you go £250M/week less than what you've been promised and actually not going to the NHS. Only the Pound devaluation has eaten that for decades to come.

Congratulations. Murdoch has his country back.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

This is a good video summing up the UK's position by a constitutional lawyer and EU law professor:

Thoughts, anyone?

 

[Pish_Pash]

That's just not true. I'm not sure where do you get your information from, but it was clear even before the 24th that those numbers were absolutely wrong. It is around a third of that, so poof! there you go £250M/week less than what you've been promised and actually not going to the NHS. Only the Pound devaluation has eaten that for decades to come..

Put it this way, we now have full control over the whole £350M we were obliged to give to the EU.....each & every week. Yep, post Brexit *we* can decide where the dosh should be spent....that's £18.2 Billion per annum for the UK to decide on its own 'spend' priorities. I'm confounded why anyone would think that's not a better position to be in.

This" b-b-b-but we only send XXx but get yy back" melarkey.....frankly, it's festival of suckage.

 

[KM-Tiger]

Thoughts, anyone?

Monnet professor = EU funded.

Didn't bother to watch.

 

[pjperez]

Put it this way, we now have full control over the whole £350M we were obliged to give to the EU.....each & every week. Yep, post Brexit *we* can decide where the dosh should be spent....that's £18.2 Billion per annum for the UK to decide on its own 'spend' priorities. I'm confounded why anyone would think that's not a better position to be in.

This" b-b-b-but we only send XXx but get yy back" melarkey.....frankly, it's festival of suckage.

Mate. There are no £350M - it was a lie. Recognised already by Farage, Gove and BoJo. Most of what the UK was supposedly "sending" to the EU never left the country - there were rebates and other stuff. The amount the UK gave the EU was way lower than that. The final sum is relatively so tiny that it would disappear due to all the business lost.

I hate to be the one breaking it to you, you made a terrible and uninformed decision. Now we all have to work even harder to fix it.

 

[Ian J]

I hate to be the one breaking it to you, you made a terrible and uninformed decision. Now we all have to work even harder to fix it.

"Uninformed" It's not uninformed if it's based on information later found to be untrue. It's wonderful being wise after the event but we can't all be hindsight engineers

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Put it this way, we now have full control over the whole £350M we were obliged to give to the EU.....each & every week. Yep, post Brexit *we* can decide where the dosh should be spent....that's £18.2 Billion per annum for the UK to decide on its own 'spend' priorities.

And you really believe that this amount of money will be spent how you want? The most likely place will be more tax cuts for the rich.

 

[DishonestDave]

And you really believe that this amount of money will be spent how you want? The most likely place will be more tax cuts for the rich.

I may have missed something, so correct me if I am wrong: the current Conservative government has not made any tax cuts for the rich; unless you want to count putting the top rate up to 50 and back down to 45.

If anything they have cut them for the poor by pushing up the income tax threshold by by about £6k, with the plan to take minimum wage earners out of tax altogether; and then push the minimum wage up to £9.

 

[ShirleyM]

And you really believe that this amount of money will be spent how you want? The most likely place will be more tax cuts for the rich.

Even that would be better than squandering it on overpaid, over-perked, over-indulged EU politicians and their lackeys, but if it does happen we can kick them out at the next GE and hopefully get those tax laws repealed.

 

[KM-Tiger]

If anything they have cut them for the poor by pushing up the income tax threshold by by about £6k, with the plan to take minimum wage earners out of tax altogether; and then push the minimum wage up to £9.

In fairness I think it was the LibDems who started that when they were part of the coalition.

It is an excellent policy and very glad to see it continued. We really should be doing everything we can to help the lower paid, not by hand outs, but by allowing them to retain more of what they earn.

 

[boring-friday]

And you really believe that this amount of money will be spent how you want? The most likely place will be more tax cuts for the rich.

Behave I'm rich compared to 99% of people and George just wacked up my tax bill. That dividends shit is nasty

 

[pjperez]

"Uninformed" It's not uninformed if it's based on information later found to be untrue. It's wonderful being wise after the event but we can't all be hindsight engineers

I'm not intending to offend anyone, but the information was there all the time. The problem is that some people believed that "this country is tired of experts" was actually clever and decided to ignore facts and call them "Project Fear".

Don't worry, we'll get out of this crap situation.

 

[Pish_Pash]

I hate to be the one breaking it to you, you made a terrible and uninformed decision. Now we all have to work even harder to fix it.

Less of the patronising.

The £350M was a 'gross' amount (Boris & Gove fessed up to this), like I say it was the amount that technically we were obligated to contribute..... I never said we physically sent £350m, because with rebates & redistribution (i.e. some coming back in subsidies), the net amount was obviously way less....but you still can't deny that technically £350M was the gross amount we were technically obligated to send. End of.

Actually, I made a very informed decision (I've seen it written many a time, that basically leave voters are all uneducated 'pond life' - FFS, catch a grip of yourself will you?!).

Frankly, I don't care whether the £350M was a lie or not ....I have other very strong reasons for leaving & - alas - making you work harder.

Thankfully, my vote paid off....the leave camp - won, which even now is still a wonderful "I have exorcised the demons, this house is cleeeeean" type feeling..

Hey, perhaps you could go along to a rally to vent your spleen - oops, too bad, that's been done (& bearing in mind how many voted to remain, it wasn't a great turnout)...so, how about a petition? Hmm, I forgot....that's old news now - perhaps you could just hang around here bitter & twisted eh?

 

[Newchodge]

It is certainly true that we have 350million gross to spend on what the government of the day wants to spend it on.

The EU spent some of that on farmers' subsidies, grant support for poorer regions, science funding, and many other things.

Do you trust a Tory government to replicate that funding, or will they just use it to continue their plan to withdraw the government from most peoples' lives and trust to market forces?

 

[KM-Tiger]

Do you trust a Tory government to replicate that funding, or will they just use it to continue their plan to withdraw the government from most peoples' lives and trust to market forces?

Depends who leads it. Andrea Leadsom is saying that existing EU funding will be replicated. And she is someone who cares about poorer people.

 

[ShirleyM]

I heard, and hope it is correct, that the £350m will be reduced by 1/24th in each month of the 2 yr notice period. Is that correct?

What about the rebate in the final year? As it is (normally) recovered 12 month in arrears will we lose that, or do you think it will be brought forward, as was the case when Cameron paid the extra £1.7bn less rebate.

 

[Newchodge]

I heard, and hope it is correct, that the £350m will be reduced by 1/24th in each month of the 2 yr notice period. Is that correct?

What about the rebate in the final year? As it is (normally) recovered 12 month in arrears will we lose that, or do you think it will be brought forward, as was the case when Cameron paid the extra £1.7bn less rebate.

Never heard that. I understood it was business as usual until exit.

I f you are right, presumably all the EU grants and fundings that we receive would be reduced i the same way?

 

[pjperez]

Less of the patronising.

The £350M was a 'gross' amount (Boris & Gove fessed up to this), like I say it was the amount that technically we were obligated to contribute..... I never said we physically sent £350m, because with rebates & redistribution (i.e. some coming back in subsidies), the net amount was obviously way less....but you still can't deny that technically £350M was the gross amount we were technically obligated to send. End of.

You could have said £1Bn and it would be the same lie. We don't magically have an extra billion by saying it. It's basic maths, not even economy (which will make this point even less important).

It's difficult to not sound patronising to someone that refuses to accept facts. It's not my intention to offend or sound like that, but it's really difficult on a written medium (and I'm not a native English speaker).

Actually, I made a very informed decision (I've seen it written many a time, that basically leave voters are all uneducated 'pond life' - FFS, catch a grip of yourself will you?!).

You didn't on this point - you might have done on other valid points.

Frankly, I don't care whether the £350M was a lie or not ....I have other very strong reasons for leaving & - alas - making you work harder.

Fair enough for voting Leave for other reasons, but the £350M where a blatant lie.

Thankfully, my vote paid off....the leave camp - won, which even now is still a wonderful "I have exorcised the demons, this house is cleeeeean" type feeling..

Hey, perhaps you could go along to a rally to vent your spleen - oops, too bad, that's been done (& bearing in mind how many voted to remain, it wasn't a great turnout)...so, how about a petition? Hmm, I forgot....that's old news now - perhaps you could just hang around here bitter & twisted eh?

Whether you understand it or not, the fact that the £350M a week for the NHS was a lie doesn't make me less democratic. I haven't signed any petition and I don't think I should rally against leaving the EU. The country has made a decision - wrong but democratic. Now we all have to put up with it.

 

[Pish_Pash]

Fair enough for voting Leave for other reasons, but the £350M where a blatant lie..

You do understand the difference between gross & net don't you?

We (the UK) signed up to funding the EU to the tune of £350M per week gross. Whether we then sign a £350M cheque & post it to them via Royal Mail's International Signed for postal service or not is mute.

It's not much different to saying you earn £50k a year ...but you don't actually trouser that due to taxation & NI contributions (incidentally, I don't know many who speak of salaries in net terms! i.e. "I've just bagged a great job, it pays £27,200 after taxes & NI contributions" - does that make those speaking in gross salary terms, liars? Because they'll never receive the gross amount)

 

[pjperez]

You do understand the difference between gross & net don't you? We (the UK) signed up to funding the EU to the tune of £350M per week gross.

It's not much different to saying you earn £50k a year ...but you don't trouser that due to taxes (I don't know many who speak of salaries in net terms)

I guess you're one of those people that see an article for sale at 20% it's supposed RRP (which has never been sold at that price) and think they're saving big money by buying it because the "gross" was so much higher.

 

[Pish_Pash]

I guess you're one of those people that see an article for sale at 20% it's supposed RRP (which has never been sold at that price) and think they're saving big money by buying it because the "gross" was so much higher.

I'm not & the fact that you've used a recommended retail price to equal gross, tells me all I need to know about your grasp.

It's not my intention to offend or sound like that, but it's really difficult on a written medium (and I'm not a native English speaker).

Your anti leave fervour is now beginning to make perfect sense ...I hope you can accrue sufficient points to stay

 

[pjperez]

I'm not & the fact that you've used a recommended retail price to equal gross, tells me all I need to know about your grasp.



Your anti leave fervour is now beginning to make perfect sense ...I hope you can accrue sufficient points to stay

It's going to be so hard to swallow when a few years in, we're not better off, we didn't have £350M per week extra and so many other lies. Apart from still having freedom of labour and a Norway-style deal, where we will be paying even more and have to abide by EU rules, but can't vote nor veto them.

After our conversation I understand you will never publicly accept any facts that contradict your beliefs, so I'm here just hoping we can get outside this hole rather sooner than later.

 

[KM-Tiger]

Apart from still having freedom of labour and a Norway-style deal, where we will be paying even more and have to abide by EU rules, but can't vote nor veto them.

It won't be a Norway style deal. That suits the Norwegians as they make a stonking profit on it and enjoy a rich and happy lifestyle. We need something quite different, and will get it.

And the Lisbon Treaty removed nearly all vetos in favour of QMV, where our vote share is 3.6%. Not a lot of "influence" that.

 

[Newchodge]

@KM-Tiger can you comment on Shirley's belief above that our gross contribution to the EU will reduce by 1/24th every month until exit? Ever heard of that?