The End Of UKIP

[quikshop]

The Leave campaign seized upon the one expert opinion that agreed with them, in amongst the sea of expertise that opposed them, it's hardly a surprise they'll clamour around a story that isn't bad news in amongst all of the stories which are.

Well that felt like a 'slap' across my face with a velvet glove

Merv King gave a very calm and measured interview on Bloomberg during the referendum in which he simply stated that yes there probably would be a short term downturn but over a longer term we would probably recover.

It was not pro-Brexit or pro-Remain, just an expert voicing his actual unselective opinion. Constrast that with Osbourne claiming every family would be £4,300 worse off - only for Andrew Neil to rip him to pieces on his selective statements http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/transcript-george-osborne-vs-andrew-neil-brexit/ - also read the 'Airbus' moment

It will be interesting to hear what Mark Carney has to say, https://www.theguardian.com/busines...rling-mark-carney-brexit-speech-business-live.

 

[Cobby]

Well that felt like a 'slap' across my face with a velvet glove

Merv King gave a very calm and measured interview on Bloomberg during the referendum in which he simply stated that yes there probably would be a short term downturn but over a longer term we would probably recover.

My apologies.

Now we've voted to leave, the discussion is no longer seem to be between predicting the damage from the uncertainty of a Leave vote, versus Leave's misinformation about the stability of the EU. Instead it's "It'll be bad" vs. "it'll be bad but then okay" and I still don't think it's a great argument when people use terms like "recover" instead of "prosper".

 

[quikshop]

I suppose the better informed Brexiteers (yes there are some ) have taken a calculated risk, and as most of us on this forum are in business then that should be a familiar thought process.

As a casual market trader I'm used to placing a stop-loss on my share positions and will accept a fixed %age loss on a position as a consequence of trying to predict a reasonable upside.

Until Europe reforms its institutions and moves away from a one size fits all (which Mr Hollande also got elected on by promising this change), then I will accept a short term loss because the upside eventually will be beneficial for all across Europe.

Yes it is a risky play, no getting away from that.

 

[Chris34]

I've spoken to quite a few remain voters now who are now seeming to be quite comfortable with the idea we are leaving the EU and are actually quite happy about it. It seems that they believed all the scaremongering but now they realise that the sky hasn't fallen down, they are starting to see the benefits of not being in the EU and that the country could be better off.

I believe we will be miles better off which is why I voted to leave. I think having full control over all our own decisions is vital to put our own countries interests first.

I think I heard Nigel Farage say something about reforming the house of lords is next on their agenda, don't quote me on that but it would make sense and I for one would be definitely up for that. I don't think UKIP needs to be in charge, they just need to be there to force those in charge to change what they are doing.

So exports booming, what's bad about that? I thought we needed higher exports because of the massive trade imbalance we have had? And the FTSE seems to be going higher, how is that bad for business? Am I missing something here because it all looks pretty good to me.


Chris.

 

[DishonestDave]

UKIP are the only party in the UK (at least major one) that are for direct democracy. I've talked about this with quite a lot of young people and it is very appealing to them, regardless of their political leanings.

I'd like to see UKIP pursue this and other reforms like getting rid of The Lords, but it will be tough, particularly to sell the party to young people who see it as racist.

Aaron Banks of Leave.eu is floating the idea of a new party to replace UKIP. That could be interesting.

 

[Newchodge]

Please explain UKIP are the only party in the UK (at least major one)

Under what assessment is UKIP a major party>

 

[KM-Tiger]

Under what assessment is UKIP a major party

3.8 M votes at the last GE, third largest vote.

 

[DishonestDave]

Please explain UKIP are the only party in the UK (at least major one)

Under what assessment is UKIP a major party>

I guess that is subjective. But I would class getting 13% in the last GE and about 25% of MEPs a major party. If you are going by Commons seats they are obviously not.

The amount of news coverage Nigel Farage gets would also suggest being major; and increasingly Nuttall and Wolfe.

If you disagree with their status as major then so be it.

 

[Newchodge]

and increasingly Nuttall and Wolfe.

I don't understand what that means, please explain.

 

[DishonestDave]

I don't understand what that means, please explain.

UKIP get a lot of media coverage. Farage is on mainstream media channels all over the world. UKIP members are regularly on QuestionTime.

As for Nuttall and Wolfe, they are two members who have been getting increasing media coverage.

Steve Woolfe, former Labour, now UKIP MEP and ecconomic spokesman

Paul Nuttall, UKIP MEP and Chairman

I've not quantified it, but I would guess they get more mainstream coverage than the Lib Dems, who I would also class as a major party, despite only having 8 MPs.

 

[Newchodge]

UKIP get a lot of media coverage. Farage is on mainstream media channels all over the world. UKIP members are regularly on QuestionTime.

As for Nuttall and Wolfe, they are two members who have been getting increasing media coverage.

Steve Woolfe, former Labour, now UKIP MEP and ecconomic spokesman

Paul Nuttall, UKIP MEP and Chairman

I've not quantified it, but I would guess they get more mainstream coverage than the Lib Dems, who I would also class as a major party, despite only having 8 MPs.

I have never heard of neither Nuttall or Wolfe. Shows how much coverage they get.

Also.I cannot think of any reason someone would refer to those nonentities unless they are UKIP trolls.

 

[DishonestDave]

I have never heard of neither Nuttall or Wolfe. Shows how much coverage they get.

My statement was that UKIP are a major party. If you wan't to disagree with that subjective statement, that is fine with me.

I am not particularly fussed about how much media coverage Paul Nuttall gets, but if you want to make an argument on it, that you do not know of Nuttall or Wolfe is anecdotal. Some hard facts:

YouTube videos (in quotes):

Paul Nuttall: 15,700
Tim Farron: 6,740

From the results you will see his coverage has been quite extensive: multiple BBC, Multiple Question Time, RT, LBC, Andrew Niel, Labour Leave, ITV, Euro Parl. ...

Also.I cannot think of any reason someone would refer to those nonentities unless they are UKIP trolls.

I referred to them to back up my subjective statement that UKIP are a major party. That you cannot think of any reason I would bring them up is not an argument.

 

[Newchodge]

As I said.

Nonentities.

 

[KM-Tiger]

As I said.

Nonentities.

Nuttall was on Any Questions this evening.

 

[Cobby]

Please explain UKIP are the only party in the UK (at least major one)

Under what assessment is UKIP a major party>

They got almost 4 million votes at the GE. They are a major party now, and as much as I dislike them, it's unjust that they only got one MP. It would be good for the nation and their supporters to see exactly how competent and effectual their representatives would be when charged with actual government work rather than Dad-coaching from the sidelines.

They don't meet the general perception of being a 'proper' party perhaps because of their nature; they are a one-issue party that campaigns with lies, misinformation and appeals to people's bigotry; they are represented by members who draw large salaries without attending their jobs, act like spoilt children, fail to beneficially represent their nation, and are led by someone who defends racial slurs in interviews, uses phrases like "well, you know what I mean" to defend his own xenophobic smears, and thinks doctors are wrong about smoking being harmful.

They perhaps aren't seen as a 'proper' party because they are the "I'm not racist, but..." Party.

 

[Cobby]

... it will be tough, particularly to sell the party to young people who see it as racist.

It wouldn't be so tough if they didn't take on racist candidates, weren't led by someone who actively displays racist behaviour, and they didn't campaign with racist dogwhistle tactics specifically for appealing to bigots.

So basically if they stop being so UKIP-ey, it'll be easy to convince youngsters they aren't a racist party

I thought we needed higher exports because of the massive trade imbalance we have had? And the FTSE seems to be going higher, how is that bad for business? Am I missing something here because it all looks pretty good to me.

There is no 'massive trade imbalance', the FTSE has been quite turbulent, the pound is *still* depressed, huge amounts of wealth have been withdrawn from the UK (not necessarily a bad thing depending on your ideology) and we are *still* making the markets nervous with our indecision and uncertainty.

If it looks "all good" to you, I can only suggest that it's because that is all you wish to see.

 

[ShirleyM]

They perhaps aren't seen as a 'proper' party because they are the "I'm not racist, but..." Party.

That is just propaganda from the frightened establishment. UKIP has lots of minorities as both members and representatives. There may be some racist members, but I'll be willing to bet all the other parties have them too. Try listening to what is actually said, rather than what the establishment want you to hear. Farage is not racist, UKIP isn't racist, and he doesn't promote racism.

 

[KM-Tiger]

Yes, look at all those racist UKIP members.

 

[Cobby]

Oh they did a diversity photo? Oh, then yes absolutely;

- none of UKIP's policies have been driven by racism or xenophobia (there's a whole bunch of this but let's stick with this one:it's the immigrants stretching the NHS!)
- Farage has never defended the use of racial epithets ("chinky" isn't racist!)
- defended his own prejudice views with racist undertones in interviews("You wouldn't want them living next door...you know what I mean")
- they've had no councillors using racist or misogynist language (oh, Godfrey, you card!)
- or any outright saying they don't like black people (remember Ms Duncan?)
- and they've never gone for the xenophobic or dogwhistle tactics in their campaigns (I'm not even going to link their recent nazi-esque propoganda, because everybody remembers that)

The list goes on, these are just some highlights off the top of my head. And of course there's the argument that anyone who thinks only white people can be xenophobic...well, *that's* racist, isn't it?

So, yes, good argument, well made. Now, let's bring on the tip-toe excuses...

 

[Cobby]

That is just propaganda from the frightened establishment. <snip ramblings and memes>

It's not. It's real, it's obvious to anyone who makes even a slight attempt at being objective or thinking critically. If you want to make an impassioned defence of them (and you seem like you do), go for it but you'd be the first to manage it successfully. Maybe throw up some more about "political correctness"?

Although most of the time I hear the term "Political Correctness" bandied about, it's usually by someone frustrated that society doesn't tolerate them openly expressing their prejudices anymore. "Political correctness gone made!" is usually the exclamation that means "it sucks I can't be openly racist these days! I'm being oppressed!"

I'm sure that's not you, btw, but them's murky waters...

 

[Cobby]

double post

 

[DishonestDave]

Some UKIPers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Woolfe
http://www.ukiptelfordandwrekin.org.uk/shropshire/councillors/mohammed-richard-choudhary/
https://twitter.com/harj_singh_ppc
http://www.ukip-bradford.org.uk/owais

http://www.ukip-bradford.org.uk/harry_boota_reaches_out_for_unity_in_bradford
https://twitter.com/davidkurten
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/ukip-switch-former-labour-councillor-7962582
https://electionleaflets.org/leaflets/10381/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_McKenzie

http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news...pakistani-politician-entrepreneur-new-7879983
http://www.kirkintilloch-herald.co....debate-hots-up-at-business-hustings-1-3760673
http://nevillewatsonukip.uk/
http://data.electionleaflets.org/cache/29/03/290369f1f3acabf2a55b9b226402a51e.png
https://whocanivotefor.co.uk/person/6874/mohammed-ali-bhatti
http://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2015/03/19/interviewing-ukips-andrew-michael-gogglebox-and-politics/
http://www.barnetbugle.com/journal/...-at-hendon-ukip-farewell-jeremy-zeid-wel.html
http://www.tottenhamjournal.co.uk/s...e_to_stamp_out_racists_in_the_party_1_4006256
http://brightonandhoveindependent.co.uk/kevin-smith-new-face-ukip/
https://www.asianexpress.co.uk/2014/05/meet-ukips-latest-mep-amjad-bashir/
http://www.ilfordrecorder.co.uk/seasonal/election/amjad_khan_1_4046010
http://www.ipswichstar.co.uk/news/ukip_selects_candidate_to_fight_ipswich_at_election_1_3911196
http://www.desiblitz.com/content/sergi-singh-made-ukip-candidate-for-hull-north
http://yasinrehman.org.uk/
http://mylespowerukip.co.uk/post/113730820956/with-louise-bours-mep-phil-eckersley-ukip-ppc-for
http://www.idhamramadi.london/

https://twitter.com/waqasukip
https://twitter.com/tariqukip
http://www.theenquirer.co.uk/muslim-councillor-defends-ukip-switch/
http://www.torquayheraldexpress.co.uk/running-MP-Totnes/story-26424538-detail/story.html
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/13/ukip-black-candidates-ethnic-minority-vote-croydon
https://twitter.com/ukip_rbwm/status/574264293509722115
http://www.ukipbirmingham.org/parli...-green-constituency/rashpal-mondair-dec-2014/
http://ukiprt.org/index.php/candidates/

 

[Newchodge]

So?

 

[ShirleyM]

Some UKIPers:

Good work, Dave.

 

[Newchodge]

No one cares who the UKIP supporters are. They can be as deluded as they want to be.

What matters is UKIP policies and pronouncements. Which right thinking people would not touch with a barge-pole.

 

[KM-Tiger]

What matters is UKIP policies

You mean like the 2015 manifesto?

Do tell us which policies right thinking (or did you mean left thinking?) people would not touch with a bargepole.

 

[DishonestDave]

No one cares who the UKIP supporters are. They can be as deluded as they want to be.

What matters is UKIP policies and pronouncements. Which right thinking people would not touch with a barge-pole.

Hi,

Sorry, I don't have time to get back to you and Cobby today. But I will come back and join in later if you are still here.

I read UKIP's manifesto and I didn't see anything that would get the barge-pole treatment from most people.

Personally, I don't actually have much in common with them. The only real overlap is immigration and the EU. In the case of immigration, reduction is a land-slide issue:

http://uk.isidewith.com/poll/420444767

 

[ShirleyM]

No one cares who the UKIP supporters are. They can be as deluded as they want to be.

What matters is UKIP policies and pronouncements. Which right thinking people would not touch with a barge-pole.

That is a broad insult, and tells much about you, ie. anyone who doesn't agree with you is automatically deluded and not 'right-minded'.

Tell us which policies that you object to. I am sure many people will find some Labour policies they object to. I'm sure there will be some Labour policies that you yourself also object to. Nobody ever agrees 100% with the whole manifesto of any party. You can only choose the promises that you put the most value on, and compromise on the rest.

 

[Newchodge]

That is a broad insult, and tells much about you, ie. anyone who doesn't agree with you is automatically deluded and not 'right-minded'.

Tell us which policies that you object to. I am sure many people will find some Labour policies they object to. I'm sure there will be some Labour policies that you yourself also object to. Nobody ever agrees 100% with the whole manifesto of any party. You can only choose the promises that you put the most value on, and compromise on the rest.

Why do you always start off with a personal attack? Is this training fro the Farrage schoolof politics?

 

[ShirleyM]

Why do you always start off with a personal attack? Is this training fro the Farrage schoolof politics?

You mean your comments about people being deluded and 'not right minded' wasn't a personal attack? What was my 'personal attack'? I didn't spot it.

 

[Newchodge]

You mean your comments about people being deluded and 'not right minded' wasn't a personal attack? What was my 'personal attack'? I didn't spot it.

I was talking about people generally. You were talking about me. That is a personal attack.

If I were now to ask whether english is your first language, given your difficulty in understanding it, that would be a personal attack from me. As I haven't asked that question, I haven't made a personal attack

 

[ShirleyM]

I was talking about people generally. You were talking about me. That is a personal attack.

Thanks for explaining your view. I still don't see where my personal attack was. I was just commenting on your insult saying more about you than the mere words you used.

 

[Newchodge]

I rest my case

 

[Cobby]

You mean like the 2015 manifesto?

Much like the irrelevant list of links about supporters above, what ukip write down is not what they seem to do, and so is hardly a relevant defence of them. I mean sure, it's the defence they want their supporters to pipe up with, as you so dutifully have, but their behaviour and actions absolutely do not reflect that.

I was pleased to see Farage repeat what I had only once heard as a passing remark, about how he thinks we should all have guns, like Americans do; how sensible and right-minded.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

"If you believe that in this year, the 800th anniversary of Magna Carta, we should seize the opportunity for real change in our politics, rebalancing power from large corporations and big government institutions and putting it back into the hands of the people of this country, then there really is only one choice.
– NIGEL FARAGE MEP

And this 'man of the people' spends his time at parties with Rupert Murdoch and Evegny lebedev 2 of the UKs biggest Oligarchs who happen to really run things.

 

[Cobby]

You mean your comments about people being deluded and 'not right minded' wasn't a personal attack? What was my 'personal attack'? I didn't spot it.

She was generalising about UKIP supporters, you technically called her a bigot. Hope that helps.

"If you believe that in this year, the 800th anniversary of Magna Carta, we should seize the opportunity for real change in our politics, rebalancing power from large corporations and big government institutions and putting it back into the hands of the people of this country, then there really is only one choice.
– NIGEL FARAGE MEP

And this 'man of the people' spends his time at parties with Rupert Murdoch and Evegny lebedev 2 of the UKs biggest Oligarchs who happen to really run things.

No, but you see, their manifesto!

 

[ShirleyM]

She was generalising about UKIP supporters, you technically called her a bigot. Hope that helps.

No, that doesn't help. You appear to be saying that it is ok to to make personal attacks on UKIP, but it is not ok to say that the attack is an insult, because saying it is an insult amounts to a personal attack on the insulter Your logic is back to front.

 

[Newchodge]

No, that doesn't help. You appear to be saying that it is ok to to make personal attacks on UKIP, but it is not ok to say that the attack is an insult, because saying it is an insult amounts to a personal attack on the insulter Your logic is back to front.

Right I understand the problem now. You see UKIP is not a person. It is therefore impossible to make a personal attack on it. Personal attacks are made on people, or, if you like, persons. Like yours.

 

[ShirleyM]

Right I understand the problem now. You see UKIP is not a person. It is therefore impossible to make a personal attack on it. Personal attacks are made on people, or, if you like, persons. Like yours.

I pointed out that your comment was insulting. Since when is that considered to be a personal attack?

UKIP is a bunch of people, not an inanimate object. If I said that all Remainers were deluded and were not right thinking, as you did with UKIP, wouldn't you consider that to be an insult?

 

[Newchodge]

Right, let's try again.

You said: That is a broad insult, and tells much about you, ie. anyone who doesn't agree with you is automatically deluded and not 'right-minded'.

You attacked me personally because I commented on UKIP generally. Do you not understand the diference?