We're out - what does it mean to you?

[ShirleyM]

Personally, I really don't buy all that Sovereignty and Democracy garbage. What I do buy, is that it Nations i.e. People, working together make change happen.

It's sovereignty and patriotism that saves a nation. I can see why that is unappealing to the EU who wants to meld our country into a homogenous Europe, but without sovereignty and patriotism we would have been under German rule many years ago.

Who would fight for Britain now? I would, but I doubt many would. Do we just meekly hand over our country to whoever wants to take it, be that the EU, Russia, or even France or Germany? It's much better to offer friendship and cooperation than be dominated into submission. That way everyone is reasonable happy.

 

[threenine]

And the Godwin point gets scored, and on that basis I'm out

irony is a wonderful thing

 

[Chris Ashdown]

This makes it sound as if Britain is the only country in the world that allegedly fought for democracy. I think this is a really warped sense of what democracy actually means. Europeans on the whole have had a shared desire of democracy.

I don't think this in any shape or form in the aid of democracy , rather a nasty concoction of nationalism and patriotism.

If you read history you will find we were probably the first country in the known civilised world to have democracy in any form
Yes its something to be proud of and though many have tried over the centuries to remove tribal ism they have all failed, even the United States has Irish Americans, Italian Americans etc each in many cases living in quite close net groups

There is nothing wrong in countries getting together to make life easy like for instance a common market with extra items like passport free travel, but when this grows to a federal state with countries that are totally different it just will not work and the Euro is the perfect example of different countries with different standards and expectations making a failing Euro in some countries and being controlled by a big brother and their friends,

What is wrong with the British people electing their own parliament made up of their own people and charging them to run the country a method which has worked for many centuries rather than giving all the real power to 29 now 28 unelected few all coming with various levels on how their decisions may effect other countries they probably know little about

 

[threenine]

If you read history you will find we were probably the first country in the known civilised world to have democracy in any form

Wonderfully distorted view of history there, which I feel provides an ill informed view of the future.

The concept of a democratic society, such as the one our country enjoys today, began in the Greek capital some 8,000 years ago.

The magna carta was not the birth of democracy, rather the start of the re-institution of the ideals from a British viewpoint.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

8000years ago!!!

May I help you

Ancient Greece - The Greek Timeline
776BC

776BC was the year of the 1st Olympic games. The games were held every 4 years in Olympia, in honour of the god Zeus. Some of the sports included wrestling, jumping, javelin and chariot racing. A crown of olive branches was awarded to the winner.

650BC During 650BC to 580BC the 'city-state' Corinth (named after the word 'currant'!) was taken over by Kypselos and he made himself the ruler. This kind of leader is called a tyrant. When Kypselos died, his son Periander took over the role of tyrant.
508BC In 508BC 'democracy' began in Athens. We still use this term today meaning 'ruled by the people'. Male citizens were given the chance to vote in order to decide how the city-state should be run. This is often said to be one of their greatest ideas.
500BC 500BC was the start of the 'Classical Period' in Greece. At this time there was a lot of interest in arts, imagination and buildings especially in the city-state Athens. This period continued until 323BC
490BC In 490 and 480BC the Greeks defeated Persian invaders at the battles of Marathon (490BC) and Salamis (480BC). The Greek victories kept the growing Persian Empire in check.
472BC In 472BC Greek theatres first became popular in Athens. Greeks found entertainment by visiting theatres to see magicians, jugglers and plays. The actors often wore masks to show the audience if they were happy or sad.
432BC In 432BC the Parthenon in Athens was finished. This huge temple was built to house a statue of the Goddess Athena. She was put there to look over and protect the city-state.

 

[threenine]

There is nothing wrong with British people wanting to make laws and regulations and have their own parliament, and the last I checked there was no direct charter from the EU stopping us from having this.

We still had and remain to have our own Houses of Parliament, pass our own legislation and govern ourselves. We had and still have our own currency. None of these things changed under the EU, and they will not change without the EU.

The price we paid for a common market and the free movement of people, which is a right and value I personally cherish. Was to comply with some directives.

If anything we probably had the best relationship with Europe than any other of the European nations.

Nationalism in my view is not a wholesome one.

I am proud to be British, but I am not for the reasons that some people are clearly displaying.

I am proud of Britain and British peoples contributions to world of Science, Technology, Litrature, and Art. I am least proud of our war faring and Imperialistic past. Although I accept under circumstances in those times, having not been alive or any real direct experience of it, can only assume that it was right. However, I don't condone that behaviour for the future.

I like everyone else am concerned about the influx of "illegal immigrants" but I am not concerned over all immigration. One the whole, I think immigration and emigration are vital for all societies.

I really don't buy and still don't buy that EU were inflicting any on our Democratic process or society.

Yes, the EU needs reform, yes it is far from Ideal. it's currently under some stress, but I feel it will progress. I am a champion of progress.

 

[threenine]

508BC In 508BC 'democracy' began in Athens. We still use this term today meaning 'ruled by the people'. Male citizens were given the chance to vote in order to decide how the city-state should be run. This is often said to be one of their greatest ideas

Thanks just proves my point

 

[KM-Tiger]

I really don't buy and still don't buy that EU were inflicting any on our Democratic process or society.

Can only suggest you read the Lisbon Treaty. That passes what in treaty speak is called "competence" for virtually all areas of govt to the EU. That includes Criminal Justice, Defence, Foreign Policy. If you want to see the full list Google "Lisbon Treaty 43 competences" should find it.

So that means in almost all areas our elected govt has to do what the unelected Commissioners tell them. That's a far cry from the "complying with a few directives" you suggest.

 

[threenine]

That includes Criminal Justice, Defence, Foreign Policy. If you want to see the full list Google "Lisbon Treaty 43 competences" should find it.

Oh I read that, in fact I read that years ago. My views were the same then as they are now.
I never felt British sovereignty was impaired.

This is why I have stated all along I have never bought the argument of sovereignty. I don't agree with the argument for nationalism.

I am not disputing the outcome, all I am searching for are for the valid reasons other than sovereignty, nationalism or immigration. As yet not one person has provided anything.

 

[Pish_Pash]

I am not disputing the outcome, all I am searching for are for the valid reasons other than sovereignty, nationalism or immigration. As yet not one person has provided anything.

Nobody needs to ...the referendum has past & we're leaving - let loose the pigeons.

 

[Carl "Excel-Expert" Nixon]

I can't imagine the medium term effects of the economic turmoil having a great deal of effect on my business. I'm not exactly an international player, most my customers are not either. As with most of these crisis, it sort of bypasses Wales. Never gets the good times, nor much of the bad.
Deeply ironic how Wales has taken so, so, much, delivered so little back, and still it's populace voted out. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.

It wasnt just Wales it was also the North and the South West - All of the places where EU money pours in, and I think there is a very good reason for this. (I havent been to the North for ages so I'm just speaking from the Welsh point of view here).

Right across Wales there are numerous EU funded projects, they are normally trading estates, shiny office buildings, road widening projects and every now and again some money will go to the arts or building a park - but that is just the odd million here and there. The rest of the £4b we are rumoured to have received goes on these show boat projects. Look at us we are building you a trading estate to encourage new business etc. Almost without fail they sit empty because they are un-needed. So the money spent here has next to zero impacts on peoples day to day lives. If you asked anyone here to name something the EU did to make their lives better they would struggle to mention anything above a public park.

This is against a backdrop of 1 in 3 closed schools, libraries, hospitals, youth unemployment at over 20% and other vital services. Start ups struggle to find funding and existing businesses desperately miss services like the WDA. The pensioner two doors from us has a weekend of sandwiches delivered by meals on every Friday because meals on wheels can no longer afford weekend deliveries. Our councils are being cut to the bone and are hugely under funded. These are all things that do impact on all of our day to day lives. So when we see £8b of UK money being used to give us £4b of stuff we dont need, when we have so much we do need, the EU money stops making sense.

The EU money coming here is just wasteful and the people of Wales know it. I'm guessing it is similar in the north and the south west.

Now if that £4b came in to the Welsh government and they were allowed to distribute it to solve the above problems, then the vote would have been very different.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Thanks just proves my point

Your point was 8000 years ago not 2500 years ago

8000 years ago was the copper age, men lived in caves and mud huts

Maybe you need to read your history a bit more and then argue about wars and democracy in modern times as your knowledge is rather lacking especially about the EC which you voted on without understanding it

 

[Rekkovitch]

For me personally I changed my business model dramatically a few years back and now work less hours for more money. I took this decision to fit in better with home life and cut out 'dead wood' clients.

I'm lucky that the business is not affected directly , some of my clients are winners , some losers from the Out result so the revenue will be largely the same.

The more 'doom and gloom' news and actions has just spurred me on to work more efficiently and less often.

Work to live for me !

 

[Newchodge]

Your point was 8000 years ago not 2500 years ago

8000 years ago was the copper age, men lived in caves and mud huts

Maybe you need to read your history a bit more and then argue about wars and democracy in modern times as your knowledge is rather lacking especially about the EC which you voted on without understanding it

We never really had a copper age in Britain.

We had a stone age, a bronze age and an iron age.

The 'copper age' in mainland Europe came between the late stone age and the bronze age and it was roughly 7,000 to 5,0000 years ago. 8,000 years ago was the Neolithic.

Yes you are right in principle, but wrong in detail. As was @threenine. He got the facts right but the dates wrong. Democracy, as we know it, started in Greece about 2,500 years ago. Sadly the Greek slaves did not seem to be included in the concept.

And men (and women) still live in caves and mud huts. To deny that seems a little bit UKcentric.

Cyndy Hodgson BA(Hons)Dunelm Archaeology and Anthropology

 

[threenine]

Maybe you need to read your history a bit more and then argue about wars and democracy in modern times as your knowledge is rather lacking especially about the EC which you voted on without understanding it

Irony is a wonderful thing! After you've made a historically incorrect statement, my statement may be technically incorrect by years but it was factually correct. Now you're trying to tell me that I am blatantly wrong. All I said was you had a distorted view of history. We can discuss the birth democracy ad infinitum, and to be honest we probably could trace it back to the bronze age.

But lets revert back to your statement that birth of democracy could be traced back to only the magna carta. Which is blatantly wrong.

I may be wrong by years, but at least I am correct that it predates the magna carta regardless

 

[Chris Ashdown]

We never really had a copper age in Britain.

We had a stone age, a bronze age and an iron age.

The 'copper age' in mainland Europe came between the late stone age and the bronze age and it was roughly 7,000 to 5,0000 years ago. 8,000 years ago was the Neolithic.

Yes you are right in principle, but wrong in detail. As was @threenine. He got the facts right but the dates wrong. Democracy, as we know it, started in Greece about 2,500 years ago. Sadly the Greek slaves did not seem to be included in the concept.

And men (and women) still live in caves and mud huts. To deny that seems a little bit UKcentric.

Cyndy Hodgson BA(Hons)Dunelm Archaeology and Anthropology

As we were talking about Greece and not the Uk you agree the copper age was a fact thank you

As someone who has worked around the world for many years including the Far East, Middle East, India, Africa, North & South America I do understand many still live in mud huts and caves, but again we were talking about Greece 8000 years ago with no implications at all about the UK,

Maybe your research into this post was not as good as your BA(Hons)

 

[KM-Tiger]

We never really had a copper age in Britain.

We did. It was the time of £ s d when pennies and halfpennies (and yes can just remember farthings) were called 'coppers'. Not to be confused with policemen.

But to come back on topic, isn't everyone really talking about parliamentary democracy? We did invent that did we not? And just voted to get it back.

 

[japancool]

Small businesses would also need this to attend conferences, cross borders to find suppliers ...

We don't need free movement of labour for that. I was in Japan looking for suppliers last week. Many companies do business with China and have the same issues, yet we're able to do it.

 

[japancool]

Your point was 8000 years ago not 2500 years ago

8000 years ago was the copper age, men lived in caves and mud huts

Maybe you need to read your history a bit more and then argue about wars and democracy in modern times as your knowledge is rather lacking especially about the EC which you voted on without understanding it

Right, but the point came up because you asserted that Britain was the first country to have democracy in any form, which obviously isn't the case from your research.

You said:

If you read history you will find we were probably the first country in the known civilised world to have democracy in any form

 

[japancool]

Am i missing something, just looked at the pound v euro & dollar and it is at a higher level than it has been for most of the year, the FTSE 100 is almost at a high for the year. Yet reading the comments above, listening to the news i thought everyone's bank account had been erased overnight. You shouldn't look at the markets and make a major decision based on a singe days trading. But what do i know i lost my shirt a few years ago...... Just don't listen to the hype and just look yourself. (its probably totally collapsed since i started to write this.....)

The pound/yen exchange rate is currently 139/£, and that's the rate that matters to me. In November, it was 190/£. On Wednesday, it was 157/£.

 

[Mr A P Davies]

It wasnt just Wales it was also the North and the South West - All of the places where EU money pours in, and I think there is a very good reason for this. (I havent been to the North for ages so I'm just speaking from the Welsh point of view here).

Right across Wales there are numerous EU funded projects, they are normally trading estates, shiny office buildings, road widening projects and every now and again some money will go to the arts or building a park - but that is just the odd million here and there. The rest of the £4b we are rumoured to have received goes on these show boat projects. Look at us we are building you a trading estate to encourage new business etc. Almost without fail they sit empty because they are un-needed. So the money spent here has next to zero impacts on peoples day to day lives. If you asked anyone here to name something the EU did to make their lives better they would struggle to mention anything above a public park.

This is against a backdrop of 1 in 3 closed schools, libraries, hospitals, youth unemployment at over 20% and other vital services. Start ups struggle to find funding and existing businesses desperately miss services like the WDA. The pensioner two doors from us has a weekend of sandwiches delivered by meals on every Friday because meals on wheels can no longer afford weekend deliveries. Our councils are being cut to the bone and are hugely under funded. These are all things that do impact on all of our day to day lives. So when we see £8b of UK money being used to give us £4b of stuff we dont need, when we have so much we do need, the EU money stops making sense.

The EU money coming here is just wasteful and the people of Wales know it. I'm guessing it is similar in the north and the south west.

Now if that £4b came in to the Welsh government and they were allowed to distribute it to solve the above problems, then the vote would have been very different.

Which part of Wales are you living in?
A few years ago, millions of pounds, (Euros?) of EU money was spent resurfacing roads in Mid Powys, after a particularity hard winter. 8 Million IIRC. They'd be dirt tracks by now, without that money.
Add that to the Farm Subsidies, which I know basically fall into a black hole, but some leaks out to the wiser community.
The councils are bankrupt because of pure bad management and corruption.
Believe me, I'm related to a couple of County Councillors (and civil servants). The incompetence and pure criminality would be astounding, if it it wasn't for the fact that I know it's perfectly normal.
This area is crying out for better roads, and more trading estates, has been for years.
Some work has been done, not nearly enough.
That EU money isn't going to be replaced with money from another source, there's no knight in shining armour coming to sort the place out, just a bunch of crooks, laughing their heads off.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

The Leader of Cornwall Council has written to ask the government to continue the £60 million funding that can from the EU. Did he not hear the news? Cornwall voted quite clearly that they did not want the money or anything else to do with the EU.

 

[KM-Tiger]

The Leader of Cornwall Council has written to ask the government to continue the £60 million funding that can from the EU.

There are going to be lots of cases where the taxpayers money recycled via Brussels could and should continue directly. The difference might be the recipients having more say in how it is spent.

And pigs might fly you are probably thinking, but who knows? This is work the govt needs to do.

 

[ShirleyM]

There are going to be lots of cases where the taxpayers money recycled via Brussels could and should continue directly. The difference might be the recipients having more say in how it is spent.

I, for one, am positive that the taxpayers money returned from Brussels can be spent more wisely. and it won't have those goddamn awful signs saying 'Funded by the EU'.

At the end of the day, if our government doesn't spend the money wisely we can kick them out, unlike the EU elite who currently make those decisions, and we will also have the portion that the EU currently keeps to fund it's gravy train.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

I, for one, am positive that the taxpayers money returned from Brussels can be spent more wisely. and it won't have those goddamn awful signs saying 'Funded by the EU'

You are unbelievably naive! Cornwall got EU funding because the UK government neglected the county for decades. Cornwall became the poorest area of the whole country and the gap became wider every year for 25 years before the EU stepped in.

I suppose you also believe that £350 a week extra is going to the NHS.

 

[john1989]

You are unbelievably naive! Cornwall got EU funding because the UK government neglected the county for decades. Cornwall became the poorest area of the whole country and the gap became wider every year for 25 years before the EU stepped in.

I suppose you also believe that £350 a week extra is going to the NHS.

£350 per week isn't unrealistic. I reckon we could raise it if each contributor to this thread chips in a few quid.

 

[simon field]

I'll paypal a tenner across if you like?

 

[john1989]

I'll paypal a tenner across if you like?

Before or after PP fees? We need to keep the NHS going you know!

 

[ShirleyM]

I suppose you also believe that £350 a week extra is going to the NHS.

You suppose wrong, I know exactly what the £350m is, and what promises were made. You don't need to make personal attacks to get my attention.

You are one of the most arrogant and offensive people I have ever had the displeasure to share a forum with. Has it EVER occurred to your giant size ego that you may be WRONG? Just once, even?

Edit: It costs nothing to be polite to people, and I apologise for my outburst, but you would test the patience of a Saint.

 

[threenine]

I, for one, am positive that the taxpayers money returned from Brussels can be spent more wisely. and it won't have those goddamn awful signs saying 'Funded by the EU'.

At the end of the day, if our government doesn't spend the money wisely we can kick them out, unlike the EU elite who currently make those decisions, and we will also have the portion that the EU currently keeps to fund it's gravy train.

You really should do a stint as a stand up comic! Some of the funniest stuff 've read in years!

anyways people. lets see what the future holds. I am still in doubt whether this is good or bad . I am yet to remain convinced by either side.

The next few weeks are going to be entertaining to say the least.

 

[Newchodge]

You suppose wrong, I know exactly what the £350m is, and what promises were made. You don't need to make personal attacks to get my attention.

You are one of the most arrogant and offensive people I have ever had the displeasure to share a forum with. Has it EVER occurred to your giant size ego that you may be WRONG? Just once, even?

Pot? Kettle?

 

[ShirleyM]

Pot? Kettle?

You jumped the gun. I had already apologised although I now regret it.

 

[japancool]

Well, the raw figures basically say that the UK pays £6 billion more to the EU than it receives back - so in theory, we should be able to replace all of the lost EU funding *and* have £115 million a week left over to do what we like with - including some of it to go to the NHS.

 

[Newchodge]

Well, the raw figures basically say that the UK pays £6 billion more to the EU than it receives back - so in theory, we should be able to replace all of the lost EU funding *and* have £115 million a week left over to do what we like with - including some of it to go to the NHS.

Provided nothing else changes in our economy, like losing revenue, like paying more for imports, like paying more in benefits as more people are unemployed etc. etc..etc..

 

[japancool]

Provided nothing else changes in our economy, like losing revenue, like paying more for imports, like paying more in benefits as more people are unemployed etc. etc..etc..

That's true, but it's not a given that will happen.

 

[Newchodge]

I can't imagine why, but I keep thinking about a scene in that classic film 'The Life of Brian'. The Crack Suicide Squad attacks the crucifixion site, frightens away all the roman guards, finds Brian where he is hanging on his cross and, on command, commits suicide. Leaving Brian, hanging from his cross, shaking his head and saying 'you silly, silly bastards'.

I may have some of the details a bit wrong, but is anyone else thinking of that scene? or is it just me?

 

[john1989]

Pessimism isn't a good look.

 

[Newchodge]

Pessimism isn't a good look.

There is a reason theer is no picture on my profile ))

 

[bharris]

What does this mean to me. Before the democratic vote disappointment remain camp for basically making stuff up, the media for actually going along with the lies and then then disappointment with the leave camp for joining in with the distorted stories. Then the result disappointment in the Government for not embracing the decision that the people they serve have made, disappointment in the media for creating hysteria but MAJOR disappointment in the public for their behaviour on a result of a vote that didn't go there way and actually calling it undemocratic and demanding a re-vote.
We as a country need to show solidarity, conviction and drive. Very difficult when the PM has jumped ship and a complete waste of space chancellor who seems to have completely vanished.
This pussyfooting about will cause problems short-term of the financial exchange rates as very easy to make money betting against quick fluctuations.

Well, the raw figures basically say that the UK pays £6 billion more to the EU than it receives back - so in theory, we should be able to replace all of the lost EU funding *and* have £115 million a week left over to do what we like with - including some of it to go to the NHS.

This is what we should be discussing how can we best spend the massive additional

 

[Newchodge]

What does this mean to me. Before the democratic vote disappointment remain camp for basically making stuff up, the media for actually going along with the lies and then then disappointment with the leave camp for joining in with the distorted stories. Then the result disappointment in the Government for not embracing the decision that the people they serve have made, disappointment in the media for creating hysteria but MAJOR disappointment in the public for their behaviour on a result of a vote that didn't go there way and actually calling it undemocratic and demanding a re-vote.
We as a country need to show solidarity, conviction and drive. Very difficult when the PM has jumped ship and a complete waste of space chancellor who seems to have completely vanished.
This pussyfooting about will cause problems short-term of the financial exchange rates as very easy to make money betting against quick fluctuations.

This is what we should be discussing how can we best spend the massive additional

Right. Any financial problems that result from the referendum result are because of politicians not taking control. Absolutely nothing to do with the result itself. Course not.

Does it not occur to you that those politicians fighting (and lying) for Brexit have a responsibility now to act? Which they are not doing.