Europe should we stay in or get out?

The rights of the criminal are not greater than the rights of the victim; we can deport neither if it infringes on their human rights.

Where violent crime is involved they should have no rights. The safety of the UK people should be paramount. If the criminals wife or kids suffer then that's the fault of the criminal, and nobody else's. We are too soft on crime in the UK.

ps. I'm pushing the posts because I want to be able to include quotes and links.
 
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No reference to her opinion, but to the fact that this is (I think and hoped?) a business forum and little of what she said had any bearing on business. I value ANY opinion at least as much as my own, otherwise my opinion will go stale


Well this part is called "Time out" and probably attracts people who are older / wiser and know there are far more important things than business.:)
 
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Scott-Copywriter

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This is a deeply fundamental problem, as the Napoleonic Code mainly used in EU countries is very different to our Common Law system, in particular no Habeas Corpus. So expect, if we remain, for our criminal justice system to be replaced with some EU code. I find that deeply worrying.

No one has to expect that at all.

We have an opt-out from the EU's Area of Freedom, Security and Justice policies, with the possibility of opting-in on a case-by-case basis if we wish to do so.

That gives our "democratic" Government complete control.
 
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Scott-Copywriter

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1000s more have built their businesses selling to us though eh. Who even cares, even if we'd have to stop drinking champagne,eating brie and driving BMWs and unfortunately we'd have to stop selling...what do we even sell to them? Hopefully the guys without the BMWs can buy it instead seeing as there'd be more money available than in the first place.

What do we even sell? Well there's about £370billion of combined import/export trade with the EU every year, so I'd say quite a bit. They are our largest trading partner by a huge margin.

The ramifications of disrupted economic trade with the EU don't just stop with the companies which directly do the importing and exporting. It ripples through vast supply chains spanning many thousands of businesses and jobs.

The point is you cannot just disrupt this and expect British businesses to work it out without some serious damage along the way. We all run businesses, so we all know what it's like. A rise in import costs can wipe out a huge chunk of the profit margin for many businesses whilst making them less competitive on the world stage.

And we also all know that it's just not that easy to immediately switch to different suppliers in other countries, or to find new clients in other countries either. It has little knock-on effects everywhere which can accumulate into hundreds of billions of pounds worth of economic losses.

That's why you have the majority of SMEs, large businesses, multi-nationals, business bodies, trade unions and economists all believing that Brexit is a bad choice which will cause damage. Across all groups combined, they are HUGELY in favour of remain.

No idea on how it would affect trade deals and couldn't personally care less but I'm fairly certain China would be happy to wipe import duty off if we did the same, surely countries approach a trade deal based on who's selling the most to eachother rather than just who has the biggest economy.

It's partly to do with existing trade, and partly to do with the potential for encouraging and increasing trade with new partners.

You could have said the same about Switzerland and China. Wouldn't China be happy to wipe import duty off if Switzerland did the same? Why not? Both countries benefit. No big deal, right?

Except the FTA Switzerland has agreed is that they will remove all tariffs for China now, and in exchange, China will remove tariffs for Switzerland in 15 years time. Plus, this includes some indefinite tariffs and quotas for certain products and services.

That's the thing about trade deals. The best case scenario for any country is to actually be allowed free trade in another country without the other country being able to trade in theirs. This allows the country to bring in external revenue without losing internal revenue when businesses start to spend more abroad.

Obviously, this cannot happen. FTAs are not a case of "let's find the fairest and best deal for both of us". FTAs are about concessions and compromises to reach a middle ground where both countries feel they have got the best deal for themselves.

This is why China demanded free access now in exchange for free access to their economy in 15 years time. China would have much preferred to give nothing if they could, but obviously Switzerland must get something in exchange eventually.

And Switzerland accepted that. Why? Because they need China more than China needs them, and with the largest economy by far, they have the leverage to dictate the terms.

If we leave the EU, and leave the world's second largest economy, China, the United States and many other large economies will do the exact same thing to us.

And if we leave with uncertainty over single market access, and years of potential negotiations to have to get through, we will not be in a position to just walk away. We will be pressured to accept what we can get.
 
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No problem. The WTO will help prevent any huge tariffs being placed upon us, but even if it did happen it will encourage people to buy British and that will stimulate the economy. We do still have a manufacturing base, and businesses are usually pretty quick to fill any gap in the market.
 
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Trade to and from the EU would not stop. The myth that a trade deal is needed for us to trade with other countries is heavily played on - but it is just a myth.

Businesses will adapt. But at least we wouldn't have other struggling economies piggy backing ours.
 
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The vote will come down to whether you want to be in a franchise, or do you want the freedom to run your own business as you see fit.


Do you want to continue to pay franchise fees for little or no return whilst other franchisees benefit from your contribution?


Do you want to be told how you can and can’t run your business?


Do you want other franchisees being able to come into your area without any restrictions?
 
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Scott-Copywriter

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No problem. The WTO will help prevent any huge tariffs being placed upon us, but even if it did happen it will encourage people to buy British and that will stimulate the economy. We do still have a manufacturing base, and businesses are usually pretty quick to fill any gap in the market.

Huge tariffs and quotas are not the problem. Any tariffs, quotas or additional re-structuring costs are a problem in world competition.

Even if the cost of trade increased by a measly 5%, that's a £18.5billion. This is more than double the UK's net contribution to the EU every year.

The fact you say "no problem" is really quite alarming. Why do you think that almost 90% of over 650 economists have agreed that Brexit will damage the UK's economy?

Once you have that initial damage and years of continuing uncertainty, spending drops further, costs go higher, and it's just a downward spiral from there.

Of course, you don't need an FTA to trade, but the point is that this is the first time ever where there's a risk of thousands of our businesses trading within a huge single market where this is pulled from under their feet. This has never happened before on such a grand scale in world history.

It's not whether you can trade. It's how well you can trade. It's how cheap, free and easy it is. In a time of this current global economic downturn, we will be the only developed nation in the world making trading conditions less favourable for our businesses.

This is the problem with nationalists. The selfishness doesn't just extend to the country, it extends to the individuals. None of you appear to care, at all, that many fellow British people will have to close their businesses, lose their jobs and go through further hardship for this.

Some collateral damage seems to be just fine providing that it doesn't affect you personally.
 
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simon field

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In fairness Scott, (and I speak as someone without a nationalistic bone in his body), for many people the threat of losing a bit of money pales into insignificance compared to the other things (such as self-determination) that are on the table before us.

Would you like to be branded 'selfish' for forcing other people's children to give up more of their ability to be governed by their own government?
 
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This is the problem with nationalists. The selfishness doesn't just extend to the country, it extends to the individuals. None of you appear to care, at all, that many fellow British people will have to close their businesses, lose their jobs and go through further hardship for this.

Here's a fun fact:

It is possible to engage in debate without resorting to pettiness and b itchy digs.

That entire post was assumptions. Nobody can say with any certainty what would happen after a Brexit.

If there are less jobs, and the EU prospers, perhaps a large chunk of the economic migrants residing here will go back home. That would save us quite a bit in housing benefits, child benefits, education, healthcare etc.
 
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I really don't listen to anyone on the EU payroll or who is EU grant funded, is open to 'persuasion' by our government or the EU, or has a personal gain from Remain.

The economic argument has not been won by the Remain campaign, and rightly so.

Yes, if the EU want to play silly beggars and cut off their nose to spite their face, then we may lose jobs, but the EU will lose far more, and quite frankly many EU countries are in a worse mess than we are.
 
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In fairness Scott, (and I speak as someone without a nationalistic bone in his body), for many people the threat of losing a bit of money pales into insignificance compared to the other things (such as self-determination) that are on the table before us.

Agreed. Brexit will be short term pain for long term gain. If there is any scaremongering, it is the knowledge (not opinion) of what will happen if we Remain. That thought is far more scary than the Brexit. I've read the treaties and the Five Presidents Report, and I do not like the way the EU is heading. The referendum is my chance to tell the UK government I want independence from the EU.
 
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Cobby

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And the problem there is that we are not training in sufficient numbers.
Hmm, interesting that the foundation for your argument sounds like a government funding and policy issue rather than an immigration issue.

surely countries approach a trade deal based on who's selling the most to eachother rather than just who has the biggest economy.
One dictates the other, these aren't two wholly separate attributes.

Please don't make it personal @evdstap. I don't agree with your opinion, but I respect your right to have one, and hope you will respect my right too.
In fairness, you have posted one Farage sound-bite after another, whereas evdstap has been offering arguments and answers complete with actual facts and figures.
 
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evdstap

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1000s more have built their businesses selling to us though eh. Who even cares, even if we'd have to stop drinking champagne,eating brie and driving BMWs and unfortunately we'd have to stop selling...what do we even sell to them? Hopefully the guys without the BMWs can buy it instead seeing as there'd be more money available than in the first place.

No idea on how it would affect trade deals and couldn't personally care less but I'm fairly certain China would be happy to wipe import duty off if we did the same, surely countries approach a trade deal based on who's selling the most to eachother rather than just who has the biggest economy.

Yes, that's how we lost our steel industry. This is precisely what Patrick Minford wants and the core hardline group of Tories. Complete free trade. Never mind the manufacturing jobs it costs; it's worth it
 
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evdstap

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In fairness Scott, (and I speak as someone without a nationalistic bone in his body), for many people the threat of losing a bit of money pales into insignificance compared to the other things (such as self-determination) that are on the table before us.

Agreed. Brexit will be short term pain for long term gain. If there is any scaremongering, it is the knowledge (not opinion) of what will happen if we Remain. That thought is far more scary than the Brexit. I've read the treaties and the Five Presidents Report, and I do not like the way the EU is heading. The referendum is my chance to tell the UK government I want independence from the EU.

Trouble is: the short term pain is likely to be very severe. Many businesses are just showing green shoots after the crash and this will push them back under. The long term gain is yet to be seen, but let's be optimistic and follow your assumption. What is that magic self-determination you are all so craving for. If you share power you share sovereignty. You can argue about the scale, but whether you do that in Marsham in the greater context of Yorkshire, In Yorkshire in the greater context of England, in England in the greater context of the Great Britain, GB in the context of the UK, or the UK in the context of the EU does not make much difference. If you don't consider the UK to be a victim, but instead an active and leading participant in the club, the benefits become clear immediately. And please don't funnel that back to the migration issue again.
 
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TODonnell

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It's Economy Vs. Sovereignty.

The economic arguments are weak, while the sovereignty arguments are absolute; England has given up its independence.

The smart move is to not belong to a block of a few tired, post-Christian, low-growth ex-enemies, with a bunch of other second-rate countries making up the numbers.

It's ironic Germany now rules Europe, at the third time of trying. Don't believe me? Hmm, well what EU regulation will passed which Germany strongly doesn't approve of? Answer: none. So you know who's in charge.

Meanwhile, Dave C. goes to Brussels and niggles for Britain. Ha ha ha.
 
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evdstap

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The rights of the criminal are not greater than the rights of the victim; we can deport neither if it infringes on their human rights.

Where violent crime is involved they should have no rights. The safety of the UK people should be paramount. If the criminals wife or kids suffer then that's the fault of the criminal, and nobody else's. We are too soft on crime in the UK.

ps. I'm pushing the posts because I want to be able to include quotes and links.

Every human being has human rights, irrespective of who they are and what they have done. That's not being soft on crime, that just basics and trying to avoid lynch mob mentality
 
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Cobby

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That entire post was assumptions. Nobody can say with any certainty what would happen after a Brexit.
There's no certainty the planet won't be struck by a meteor tomorrow. However we have plenty of information and experience about what we are looking at to be fairly sure that won't happen.

It's disingenuous to keep peddling the myth that nobody can be sure what's going to happen either way!

If there are less jobs, and the EU prospers, perhaps a large chunk of the economic migrants residing here will go back home. That would save us quite a bit in housing benefits, child benefits, education, healthcare etc.
What you are imagining here is some strange, discrete model where you can remove workers and residents (almost all of whom are contributing to the economy) and simply cross out any social cost for them, and their loss to the economy has no other effect at all.

It's always strange to hear that argument laid out as if it has actually been given genuine thought.
 
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Cobby

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If the criminals wife or kids suffer then that's the fault of the criminal, and nobody else's.
In other words, "I don't care if innocent people suffer, as long as my sense of mob-justice has been satisfied."

Cool.

I really don't listen to anyone on the EU payroll or who is EU grant funded, is open to 'persuasion' by our government or the EU, or has a personal gain from Remain.
Ironically that's pretty much everyone voting Leave.
 
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There's no certainty the planet won't be struck by a meteor tomorrow. However we have plenty of information and experience about what we are looking at to be fairly sure that won't happen.

It's disingenuous to keep peddling the myth that nobody can be sure what's going to happen either way!


What you are imagining here is some strange, discrete model where you can remove workers and residents (almost all of whom are contributing to the economy) and simply cross out any social cost for them, and their loss to the economy has no other effect at all.

It's always strange to hear that argument laid out as if it has actually been given genuine thought.

There’s no certainty that this thread will encounter rational people engaging in sensible debate without resorting to sly digs and putdowns.


Surely if the economy struggles, and their home country prospers under the EU, there is no removing needed because they would want to freely go back home.
 
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evdstap

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What do we even sell? Well there's about £370billion of combined import/export trade with the EU every year, so I'd say quite a bit. They are our largest trading partner by a huge margin.

The ramifications of disrupted economic trade with the EU don't just stop with the companies which directly do the importing and exporting. It ripples through vast supply chains spanning many thousands of businesses and jobs.

The point is you cannot just disrupt this and expect British businesses to work it out without some serious damage along the way. We all run businesses, so we all know what it's like. A rise in import costs can wipe out a huge chunk of the profit margin for many businesses whilst making them less competitive on the world stage.

And we also all know that it's just not that easy to immediately switch to different suppliers in other countries, or to find new clients in other countries either. It has little knock-on effects everywhere which can accumulate into hundreds of billions of pounds worth of economic losses.

That's why you have the majority of SMEs, large businesses, multi-nationals, business bodies, trade unions and economists all believing that Brexit is a bad choice which will cause damage. Across all groups combined, they are HUGELY in favour of remain.



It's partly to do with existing trade, and partly to do with the potential for encouraging and increasing trade with new partners.

You could have said the same about Switzerland and China. Wouldn't China be happy to wipe import duty off if Switzerland did the same? Why not? Both countries benefit. No big deal, right?

Except the FTA Switzerland has agreed is that they will remove all tariffs for China now, and in exchange, China will remove tariffs for Switzerland in 15 years time. Plus, this includes some indefinite tariffs and quotas for certain products and services.

That's the thing about trade deals. The best case scenario for any country is to actually be allowed free trade in another country without the other country being able to trade in theirs. This allows the country to bring in external revenue without losing internal revenue when businesses start to spend more abroad.

Obviously, this cannot happen. FTAs are not a case of "let's find the fairest and best deal for both of us". FTAs are about concessions and compromises to reach a middle ground where both countries feel they have got the best deal for themselves.

This is why China demanded free access now in exchange for free access to their economy in 15 years time. China would have much preferred to give nothing if they could, but obviously Switzerland must get something in exchange eventually.

And Switzerland accepted that. Why? Because they need China more than China needs them, and with the largest economy by far, they have the leverage to dictate the terms.

If we leave the EU, and leave the world's second largest economy, China, the United States and many other large economies will do the exact same thing to us.

And if we leave with uncertainty over single market access, and years of potential negotiations to have to get through, we will not be in a position to just walk away. We will be pressured to accept what we can get.

I could not agree more.

I must say I congratulate the Leave campaign on the success of their campaign. Apparently 2/3 of voters think there will be negative economic effects, but that these won't affect them. How extraordinary.

Selfishly, as I run a business and I can see this putting us into real difficulties with many jobs to go, I am therefore in favour of Remaining in the EU.

I have a lot of sympathy for some of the arguments of the Leave camp, but what I am really struggling with is the fact that it is crystal clear to me that the Out-voters will not get a bit of what they actually expect in return for their enormous sacrifice. After Brexit there will be a god almighty struggle within the Tory party for power. Dave will leave and a Leave figurehead will take over, probably Boris, and many Euro-sceptic Tories will be brought into the cabinet. So the old Tory leave alliance will have what it always wanted and can get back to business as usual, which means that they will probably try to implement their Flexcit strategy - Leave the EU, re-join the EEA, accept all the terms and conditions and therefore minimise the damage to our economy. Everything will be almost exactly like it was before, free movement of migrants and all. Any changes will be mostly political and almost imperceptible to the public. But that damage will have already been done.

So here we are, several groups campaigning for the same cause:
UKIP - they want out altogether and massively reduce migration: They won't get what they want
Labour - On low pay and suffering from austerity measure with no real increase in living standards for years; they have been made to believe that migrants are to blame, who have nicked their jobs, lowered their wages and put pressure on the NHS, schools and housing: They will see nothing change either - public services will continue to suffer from lack of funding and probably even more so, as we will suffer economically, migrants no change, complete deception
Tories (the voters, not the politicians) - Apart from a few who understand and subscribe to the Flexcit strategy, they will get nothing in return either, at least not for a decade or so.

So everyone bar a few ends up very disillusioned and we'll have paid a very heavy financial price for that, with many more years of austerity to follow as a result - that's not scaremongering, that's just realism.

How did Dave ever fall into this trap? Why are we happy to self harm for the glory of a few ancient Tories? I do not know, but I despair
 
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evdstap

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No problem. The WTO will help prevent any huge tariffs being placed upon us, but even if it did happen it will encourage people to buy British and that will stimulate the economy. We do still have a manufacturing base, and businesses are usually pretty quick to fill any gap in the market.

That is such a simplistic view, it is hardly believable that someone would hold it (less still an accountant). Tariffs are only one part of the problem, and not one to be taken lightly. Technical barriers are far more damaging that tariffs. Simply saying that people will then buy British is just not realistic.
 
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Newchodge

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    There’s no certainty that this thread will encounter rational people engaging in sensible debate without resorting to sly digs and putdowns.


    Surely if the economy struggles, and their home country prospers under the EU, there is no removing needed because they would want to freely go back home.

    And such a scenario will benefit the people of the UK how, exactly?
     
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    evdstap

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    Trade to and from the EU would not stop. The myth that a trade deal is needed for us to trade with other countries is heavily played on - but it is just a myth.

    Businesses will adapt. But at least we wouldn't have other struggling economies piggy backing ours.

    Trade will not stop, but trade will decrease and that is part of the enormous cost that will hit us.
    Of course businesses will adapt, but if you believe that after an exit nothing really changes, business as usual, you are really naive I'm afraid. Trade deals are not a necessity, but they stimulate sales, so inversely, losing one will hurt sales.
     
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    evdstap

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    Indeed. We do pretty well with trade and investment with the USA with nothing in place.

    It is businesses that trade, not countries.

    It's businesses that trade, but countries can facilitate this. That's what Trade Deals do, and if you don;t have them trade is more difficult, more expensive and more limited. We do pretty well with the US with nothing in place, but could do a lot better with a deal in place. Conversely, we do very well with the EU with a deal in place and it will harm us significantly if that deal ends.
    Why do you think countries are continuously trying to negotiate trade agreements with each other, just to keep themselves busy?
     
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    In fairness, you have posted one Farage sound-bite after another, whereas evdstap has been offering arguments and answers complete with actual facts and figures.

    In fairness, I am not the one making ad hominem attacks, and I will back up with facts and figures as soon as I can post links.

    Would it be more acceptable to you if I posted Cameron's sound bites one after the other, like @evdstap?
     
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    Newchodge

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    I think the remain have missed something.

    The Brexit might be a dramatic change, but being in the EU has made many changes. It's just that t has gone mainly unnoticed over a period of many years.

    Well that would be because it happened over a number of years, rather than in one big lump which is what Brexit will be. Change can usually be accommodated if it is gradual. Sudden catastrophic change like Brexit would be more problematic.
     
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    TODonnell

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    It depends on how solid the Uk economy is. What's the national debt now? Would a small thing trigger another recession?

    And is that enough to give away your freedom to govern yourself as a nation?

    Also: How many of the famous faces promoting Stay benefit directly from EU money and likely future preferment (committee seats, grants etc)?

    The thing about the EU is, it's rotten.

    It proceeds on stealth and hasn't filed proper accounts in 20(?) years.

    Ridiculous!
     
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