Europe should we stay in or get out?
- Thread starter Funding for Communities
- Start date
If so many people flood here in their thousands, then that tells you one thing.
It tells you that this country is a good place to be.
If you reach a point where you don't like it because 'foreigners' are moving in, then you still have the choice of either being tolerant about it, or moving to just about anywhere you like on the planet.
Is that so bad?
It tells you that this country is a good place to be.
If you reach a point where you don't like it because 'foreigners' are moving in, then you still have the choice of either being tolerant about it, or moving to just about anywhere you like on the planet.
Is that so bad?
Upvote
0
In! Some of us are old enough to remember how much of a pain it used to be trying to buy and sell from around Europe before the EU.
Trade controls at every border, dozens of currencies, different Laws in every country... it was a right royal pain in the rear. We so don't want to head back in that direction.
Trade controls at every border, dozens of currencies, different Laws in every country... it was a right royal pain in the rear. We so don't want to head back in that direction.
Upvote
0
^^^ This is one of the biggest twists on words used by some members of the 'out' brigade (of which I am currently one)
Immigration into this country is controlled by something called 'UK Border Control' - you may have seen it at airports.
If you really mean unlimited immigration just say so.
Upvote
0
D
Deleted member 59730
I think this thread is going nowhere because many UKBF members are importers from China and do not experience exporting to the EU. I am with IDOMARKETING above. Before we were in the EU exporting was a right pain. You might notice that Norway and Switzerland, whose model we are told is a good one, have to get a Carnet to do simple things like exhibiting at a trade show or taking trade samples into the EU.
Upvote
0
D
Deleted member 59730
Where I live in Cornwall we have a lot of eastern Europeans working in the fields. Some of those are leaving because things are improving in their home countries leaving farming contractors in the lurch. The NFU have even suggested that the UK should import Moroccans to work on farms rather than pay Brits a decent wage.
Upvote
0
Only that I doubt you'd want restrictions on where you can travel to, and also that things are fast becoming more 'global' than 'national' so it's either keep up or get left behind.
Upvote
0
J
john1989
I went to Egypt last August. Getting there was easy. I wanted to go to Ras Mohammad National Park, getting a visa was easy too.
The fact is, we don't need to have EU membership to travel.
If we left the EU, I'm sure getting to Benidorm wouldn't be a struggle.
Upvote
0
J
john1989
You are failing to distinguish between travelling and choosing to go and live in a different country.
I have no problem with people visiting Britain. It is of importance to our economy that people do visit Britain, particularly for the tourism industry.
Upvote
0
I'd be able to go an live in pretty much any country. The reason is I have skills, which can be used to generate more money than the average person. The message Britain should be sending is if you want to come: get some skills.
As I pointed out in another thread. Based on a recent, large study of student IQ, removing native British people from the equation reduces the overall IQ by 8 points from 102 to 94. Lower IQ people in a high IQ society are considerably over represented social ills, as shown my countless studies like:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve#Content
This is a damming testament for the overall immigration policy. IQ is the single best indicator of a country's prosperity. An in case you want to pull the race card on me for saying this, I am not of full-British, or European ancestry.
I find this a an authoritarian statement, because you are presenting one option: shut up about policies you do not like OR leave the country! There is something obviously Hitlerian about that. And you are saying that when the immigration policies are widely unpopular.
I have already left and this is part of the reason why. I want to live in a strong country that lets in people, but only people who are better than what we already have. Britain should be letting in people with 115+ IQs and not people with 94 IQs, people who can't read and write and so on.
I don't want to live in a country which goes out of its way to make itself weaker, has 96 different languages spoken in schools, gives free healthcare to anyone who turns up at Heatrow, has to have specific integration policies (not necessary in countries that let in swathes of high value people), has to have police units for crimes that have been imported like forced marriage.
If the UK continues down the current path, its not going to end up as a super-cultural wonderland as I am sure you think it will. It is going to end up super-fractured. It will end up like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina
Take special note of the ideology column. That is what happens when there is not integration. Znam jer sam bio tamo i govorim jezik.
Britain can give a serious boost to tourism with this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Paramount
Upvote
0
It won't be the status quo.
Turkey, Serbia, Montenegro, and Macedonia are all lined up to join the EU. So that will be another 88 million people with whom we share a common country called the EU.
How many of those will want to come and live in the EU region called England?
Upvote
0
I can attest to the movement of the latter three. If Serbia joins the EU, its population will shirnk to 6 million in the next decade. Though luckily, anti-EU sentiment has grown massively in Serbia over the last few years. Membership of the EU will require Serbia recognise Kosovo's illegal deceleration of independence; and I don't think that will ever happen.
For the Eastern perspective on the EU, see:
http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/t...-would-need-a-microscope.357798/#post-2648152
Just one angle on the Western perspective:
http://www.breitbart.com/london/201...in-eu-convicts-paid-for-by-british-taxpayers/
I really struggle to see why anyone is for this dictatorship.
I already voted out by leaving the EU. I will never go back.
Upvote
0
F
F_B
I'm not going to comment either way on whether I think we should be in or out of Europe (Ok, I admit it, I'm unsure either way!).
However, my profession (patents and trademarks) is concerned that there are no plans in place should the UK vote to leave with respect to intellectual property rights.
Trade marks
European Union trade marks will not cover the UK. It is assumed there will be some form of grace period, but it is by no means sure that owners of European trade marks will be able to hive off the UK portion to a UK registration. UK registered trade mark attorneys are also likely to lose their representation rights before the EUIPO, meaning if a UK resident wishes to obtain an EU trade mark, they will need to engage the services of an EU trademark attorney. From our perspective, this would lead to an increase in costs for anyone sourcing a EU trade mark through ourselves as we would be required to instruct a foreign associate with representation rights before the EUIPO.
Registered Designs
As the EUIPO administer registered design right, the story is relatively similar to trade marks, above. However, one difference is the impact on obtaining an International registered design registrations. The EU is a signatory of the Hague convention on international design rights, but the UK isn't. Therefore, if the UK left the EU, international design rights are unlikely to cover the UK and residents would not be able to apply for international registered design protection. This seems a shame, as Japan and the USA have only recently ascended to the Hague agreement, making international registered design protection much more worthwhile for clients.
Patents
The world of patents is a bit more straightforward as the European patent convention is separate from the apparatus of the European Union (I normally compare the European patent system to the Eurovision song contest as some unexpected countries are members, such as Switzerland and Turkey). The UK is likely to remain a member of the European Patent convention in the event the UK leaves the EU. For clarity, the current European Patent system leads to a bundle of national rights via a single application.
However, the Unitary patent convention, which would result in a "European patent" (i.e. a single patent with unitary effect throughout Europe rather than a bundle of national rights), would be effected were the UK to leave the EU. The Unitary patent is due to become available in 2017/2018. It is unlikely UK residents would be able to benefit from the Unitary patent.
Chartered Institute of Patent attorney's position on the EU referendum:
http://www.cipa.org.uk/policy-and-news/briefing-papers/eu-referendum/
Institute of Trade mark attorney's position on the EU referendum:
http://www.itma.org.uk/membership/resources/eu_referendum
However, my profession (patents and trademarks) is concerned that there are no plans in place should the UK vote to leave with respect to intellectual property rights.
Trade marks
European Union trade marks will not cover the UK. It is assumed there will be some form of grace period, but it is by no means sure that owners of European trade marks will be able to hive off the UK portion to a UK registration. UK registered trade mark attorneys are also likely to lose their representation rights before the EUIPO, meaning if a UK resident wishes to obtain an EU trade mark, they will need to engage the services of an EU trademark attorney. From our perspective, this would lead to an increase in costs for anyone sourcing a EU trade mark through ourselves as we would be required to instruct a foreign associate with representation rights before the EUIPO.
Registered Designs
As the EUIPO administer registered design right, the story is relatively similar to trade marks, above. However, one difference is the impact on obtaining an International registered design registrations. The EU is a signatory of the Hague convention on international design rights, but the UK isn't. Therefore, if the UK left the EU, international design rights are unlikely to cover the UK and residents would not be able to apply for international registered design protection. This seems a shame, as Japan and the USA have only recently ascended to the Hague agreement, making international registered design protection much more worthwhile for clients.
Patents
The world of patents is a bit more straightforward as the European patent convention is separate from the apparatus of the European Union (I normally compare the European patent system to the Eurovision song contest as some unexpected countries are members, such as Switzerland and Turkey). The UK is likely to remain a member of the European Patent convention in the event the UK leaves the EU. For clarity, the current European Patent system leads to a bundle of national rights via a single application.
However, the Unitary patent convention, which would result in a "European patent" (i.e. a single patent with unitary effect throughout Europe rather than a bundle of national rights), would be effected were the UK to leave the EU. The Unitary patent is due to become available in 2017/2018. It is unlikely UK residents would be able to benefit from the Unitary patent.
Chartered Institute of Patent attorney's position on the EU referendum:
http://www.cipa.org.uk/policy-and-news/briefing-papers/eu-referendum/
Institute of Trade mark attorney's position on the EU referendum:
http://www.itma.org.uk/membership/resources/eu_referendum
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote
0
Upvote
0
No one knows what the future would hold either way. But if leave wins, the only reason it might cause any turbulence is because the UK was duped into a political union without consent. You only have to look at Norway and Switzerland to know that thriving on the European continent outside the European Union is possible.
Membership to the EU can hardly be seen as top-tier from an international trade perspective:
"Since 1970, the EU has concluded 37 agreements, most of them with small economies, some multi-country. The aggregate GDP in 2015 of the 55 countries with an EU agreement in force in January 2015 is $7.7 trillion.
By contrast the aggregate GDP of all the countries with which Chile had agreements in force is $58.3 trillion, Korea’s totalled $40.8 trillion, Singapore’s $38.7 trillion and Switzerland’s $39.8 trillion. However, the agreements of these four countries include their agreements with the EU, which has a GDP of $16.7 trillion." - Civitas
As a relatively high-end economy, the UK requires cheap raw materials from economically weaker countries, to add value to and then sell internally and abroad. With the measly $7.7 trillion in trade deals the EU has made, which are catered for the economically diverse EU rather than just Britain, this leads to a significant price hike. The UK needs to pen its own trade deals, which are for the mutual benefit of two countries. Given the vast economic disparity in Europe, with average monthly wages ranging from about $350 to $4,000 dollars, this is not feasible; and the EU has a pathetic history of signing trade deals.
The idea that Britain cannot do a better job at working for its own interest is defeatist. In the areas that the EU has not sufficiently meddled in like VISA deals, the UK is number one. Let's get out, stop worrying we are not good enough, make better deals and get back to number one in the areas the EU has taken control of.
There is a good write up on the process of leaving here:
http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/the-mechanics-of-leaving-the-eu-explaining-article-50/
Upvote
0
If by 'duped into' you mean 'democratically voted to be part of', then quite right.
You're also right regarding Switzerland and Norway, I mean, ever since leaving the EU after being a part of it for so long, they flourished so quickly and are now thriving. Just goes to show!
Upvote
0
People voted to join the European Economic Community, not to join a political and judicial union. Your logic, or rather lack of, seems to suggest that the '75 referendum gives unlimited licence to do anything. The European Union did not even exist in 1975. Here is the ballot:
http://snappa.static.pressassociati...-14e490a32e1596b6ebe3bd6695d9598a-600x590.jpg
What are you talking about? Switzerland and Norway have never been members of the EU.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
I was one of those, I'm sorry to say.
At the time, when the UK was dubbed "the sick man of Europe" and trade was protectionist with relatively high tariffs, it looked like a really good idea to join a "Common Market", as it was then known. On the back of the 3 day week, rolling power cuts, and strike after strike, the mood was that something needed to be done, something needed to change.
We were lied to, as I had no idea I was voting to join a political union, which I would not have voted for.
Upvote
0
Watch any of the debates on youtube and there's a clear difference between the ones that want to stay in and the ones that want to get the hell out. I watched The Spectator Debate: Should Britain leave the EU? the other day on youtube and it's unbelievable how the in lot performed. Some parts were embarrassing because they just didn't have an answer, or couldn't give a clear answer. Liz Kendall was particularly bad but all 3 of them came across as pretty clueless.
Upvote
0
What a lot of Brexit people seem to forget is that this is a vote on whether we should leave. This is NOT a vote on what we should do after we've left. None of us have a say on that.
Considering that all the major political parties are pro-EU, the majority of MPs are pro-EU, and that no politician in their right mind would want to risk causing uncertainty and damage to the economy, our first port of call will be to sign up to the European Economic Area to try and maintain the status quo for British business and investment.
We'll still have the free movement of goods, services and people, we'll still have to pay into the EU budget, and we'll still have to abide by the majority of EU law, except this time we just won't have a vote or veto over the EU regulations we would have to continue to abide by.
Most Conservative MPs want to remain, the vast majority of Labour MPs want to remain, the vast majority of SNP MPs want to remain, and most of the smaller party MPs want to remain.
A vote for Brexit is a vote for the UK to become a member of the European Economic Area instead. It's as simple as that. Similar situation, but just less control and influence.
Considering that all the major political parties are pro-EU, the majority of MPs are pro-EU, and that no politician in their right mind would want to risk causing uncertainty and damage to the economy, our first port of call will be to sign up to the European Economic Area to try and maintain the status quo for British business and investment.
We'll still have the free movement of goods, services and people, we'll still have to pay into the EU budget, and we'll still have to abide by the majority of EU law, except this time we just won't have a vote or veto over the EU regulations we would have to continue to abide by.
Most Conservative MPs want to remain, the vast majority of Labour MPs want to remain, the vast majority of SNP MPs want to remain, and most of the smaller party MPs want to remain.
A vote for Brexit is a vote for the UK to become a member of the European Economic Area instead. It's as simple as that. Similar situation, but just less control and influence.
Upvote
0
Absolutely.
If we win the "OUT" vote, at least we have a better chance of defending ourselves against the poisonous tentacles of Political Correctness (the new Fascism) and other stifling regulation
Upvote
0
All I can see is positives. What say do we have on what laws the EU make, or anything else they do?
I admit, nothing would change my mind to vote to stay in, nothing, and I'm not bothered if some of these doom like economic predictions were to come true. I think it would be a small price to pay for a bright new future ahead of us, and it would send a powerful message to some of our politicians that British people have had enough of being treated with what seems like contempt.
Upvote
0
Upvote
0
What "poisonous tentacles" of political correctness and stifling EU regulation are there? Please list them.
Upvote
0
We have a big say.
When every new piece of EU legislation is being decided upon, it either requires a double majority or unanimity depending on the type of legislation.
For example, in cases of new EU membership, rights for citizens, EU finances and certain aspects of law, all EU members most vote unanimously in favour for it to pass. This means that if the UK votes against it, it won't pass, even if every other EU nation votes in favour.
Other types of legislation require a double majority, where at least 55% of EU nations must vote in favour, but they must represent at least 65% of the EU population. With the UK having the 3rd highest population in the EU, this gives us huge power in swaying a vote.
There is also a minority veto procedure in place. Any piece of legislation can be blocked if 4 members choose to veto the legislation and they represent more than 35% if the EU population. Again, this gives us considerable power considering our population.
You can also combine that with the recent treaty changes the UK negotiated with the EU, which gives us a huge range of opt-outs over any legislation we don't want (far more than any other EU country has).
Now if we leave the EU and inevitably join the EEA (which is almost certain to happen with so many pro-EU MPs whether people like it or not), we'll still have to follow a large chunk of EU law, we'll still have to pay into the budget, and we'll still have to allow the free movement of trade and people, except this time our hefty ability to vote and influence EU legislation will vanish.
Tell me, how is that a brighter future for us?
Do you realise that, if we leave the EU, we're just giving more power to UK politicians than they've had in decades? Many beneficial EU laws which are currently can't be touched by our Government would be put back in the hands of UK politicians to do as they please with them.
Right now, the democratic process of the EU is decided by dozens of countries with a common shared interest, spanning the full left to right of the political spectrum. If we leave the EU, many laws could be changed on a whim by future UK Governments with single ideologies which have a majority in Parliament. They will be accountable to no one.
I do find it interesting that Boris Johnson, the most notable Brexit campaigner, is also the person who is strongly rumoured to be intending to run for Prime Minister one day. The chap who wants to hold the highest office in the land is campaigning for a situation where he would be given even more power and control if he eventually becomes Prime Minister. I wonder why...
Upvote
0
Wrong.
They will be accountable to voters who will have the power to change the govt if they don't perform. 1944, 1979, 1997, and 2010 spring to mind.
With the EU, voters have no such power.
Upvote
0
True, but that's only every 4 years.
A left or right wing government with a majority in Parliament can do an awful lot as they please in the space of four years, with no guarantee that a new government would reverse any decisions.
The fact remains that if we do leave the EU, it's effectively a vote to join the EEA given the overwhelming number of pro-EU MPs. The voices advocating other approaches have little power in Parliament, unless Nigel Farage and UKIP suddenly become the majority party.
We'll still have to allow free movement, still abide by many EU laws and still contribute to the budget, but this time we won't have any sort of say or vote in the legislation we have to abide by.
Brexit supporters need to stop pushing their agenda on the basis of outcomes which are just not going to happen. After the referendum the MPs are back in control with an overwhelming majority of pro-EU perspectives. We will join the EEA and end up with a similar situation but just with less control than we had before.
If you want the UK to join the EEA, then that's fair enough, but I see many Brexit supporters advocating alternative scenarios which just won't ever happen. We have to be realistic about that.
Upvote
0
Latest Articles
-
What I Wish I'd Known Before Using AI in My BusinessSomewhere between the headlines promising AI will transform everything...- Ozzy
- Updated:
-
Is AI Making the Internet Worse?It started with a comment about music. @JEREMY HAWKE , a courier...
- Ozzy
- Updated:
-
The AI Divide: What UKBF Members Really Think in 2026Every few months on UK Business Forums, a thread appears that refuses...
- Ozzy
- Updated:
-
When the Algorithm Gets It Wrong: What eBay's AI Moderation Problem Tells Us About Platform RiskA thread appeared on UKBF this week that, on the surface, looks like a...
- Ozzy
- Updated:
-
Should you crowdfund? A framework for UK founders in 2026Three articles into a series on what crowdfunding actually costs, the...
- Ozzy
- Updated:
