Europe should we stay in or get out?
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To think that by voting out you will get a personal say on law changes I'm afraid you have another think coming.
Let's say, just as an example, a politician says 'Vote for me and I will change the law so that we can instantly expel from the UK anyone who says the nasty things about infidels - no questions asked, we'll just make the bad thing go away'
You vote for him/her.
Do you think that politicians have a good track record of doing what they say they'll do? I know it's hard to imagine, but what if they don't expel the (all of) four people the papers have pounced upon? What will you do then? Emigrate? Ha, a migrant! Haha!
Let's say, just as an example, a politician says 'Vote for me and I will change the law so that we can instantly expel from the UK anyone who says the nasty things about infidels - no questions asked, we'll just make the bad thing go away'
You vote for him/her.
Do you think that politicians have a good track record of doing what they say they'll do? I know it's hard to imagine, but what if they don't expel the (all of) four people the papers have pounced upon? What will you do then? Emigrate? Ha, a migrant! Haha!
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The thing I find amusing about this thread is that we have one person calling others traitors because they are considering to vote 'in'.
All the shouting about our kids lives being destroyed and an army of immigrants coming over to rape our wives and daughters in the street aside, the basis of their argument seems to be that if we vote to stay in we will be governed from elsewhere, as in the United Kingdom of great Britain and Northern Ireland will have some, oh what the hell, let's play devils advocate and say the majority of their laws made elsewhere. If we vote for that then we are traitors *shiver*.
Now, with that in mind I would say it's all a matter of a point in time. Given I know nothing about our friend amberlamps other than the abusive attitude given out (I hope that's hot his/her customer facing voice), I'm going to say that perhaps they live in Cornwall. Now hold on a moment. They are throwing their support behind the United Kingdom. TRAITOR! Apply the same for Scotland, Wales..... Wessex, Mercia etc... all swallowed into this massive group of smaller nations with laws forced on them from outside of their borders.
My tongue in cheek scenario aside (I had to highlight that in case I was taken too seriously) my point is that the world turns and we move on. Nations evolve and grow. The UK is a state in a tiny window of time and if we do vote to stay in, some people will be better off and some will be worse, but the fuss will die down and life will go on. We will continue to be part of a bigger construct and I personally believe the status quo will continue if we stayed in.
I don't believe there are armies of eurocrats (<- I'm coining that term) waiting to draft laws to wipe our children's prospects away, there aren't armies of migrants that are going to be provided with free transport over from France to rape out lady folk, nor will we live under the threat of doom.
As to freedom to make our own laws? Does this person really think we make our own laws? That privilege is given to a subset of members of a few political parties (with from time to time the odd independent MP thrown in). It is they who decide what our laws should be, not you or I in the street. We vote for an MP...... actually I seriously doubt many people do that, they probably vote for a political party regardless of who that MP is. That MP had then better toe the party line if they want to keep their membership and have the party support at the next election.
If the majority of the country that takes to the polls does vote to stay in, amberlamps will be in the minority, shouting "traitors" from the roof tops. But that very British democratic process that he/she clings to with so much passion will have given its result. I wonder if he/she will accept it?
Fast forward 15 or 20 years. Will those yes voters still be traitors? Will amberlamps be leading the British Independence Army, blowing up those traitorous scum who ruined his/her life, leading the bloody fight to free this island from its shackles of slavery?
I ramble on for the fun of it so I'll conclude
I am genuinely undecided, but if I don't hear any good argument to vote out, I'll vote for the status quo. Simple as that.
Amberlamps reminds me of a Labor activist who knocked on my door in the run up the the general election before last. I can't remember what he started with, but he saw my 3 children pop their heads into the hallway and said (and I quote) "I see you've got kids. Well you'd better vote Labour because that Tory lot want to do the schools in". No, I am not making that up.
He was talking out of his backside and it wasn't an argument that made me vote for his party. Quite the opposite. From this thread I consider his argument the same as that of amberlamps: Made up out of fear, lacking substance, offensive, and given by someone who's made a fool out of themselves and doesn't realise it.
I think i've rambled on enough, so flame all you want, I have no more to add on the subject.
I wish everyone (including amberlamps) a prosperous future regardless of whom we are governed by. Aw, sod it. Forget the EU, I vote to become the 51st state.
Goodnight
All the shouting about our kids lives being destroyed and an army of immigrants coming over to rape our wives and daughters in the street aside, the basis of their argument seems to be that if we vote to stay in we will be governed from elsewhere, as in the United Kingdom of great Britain and Northern Ireland will have some, oh what the hell, let's play devils advocate and say the majority of their laws made elsewhere. If we vote for that then we are traitors *shiver*.
Now, with that in mind I would say it's all a matter of a point in time. Given I know nothing about our friend amberlamps other than the abusive attitude given out (I hope that's hot his/her customer facing voice), I'm going to say that perhaps they live in Cornwall. Now hold on a moment. They are throwing their support behind the United Kingdom. TRAITOR! Apply the same for Scotland, Wales..... Wessex, Mercia etc... all swallowed into this massive group of smaller nations with laws forced on them from outside of their borders.
My tongue in cheek scenario aside (I had to highlight that in case I was taken too seriously) my point is that the world turns and we move on. Nations evolve and grow. The UK is a state in a tiny window of time and if we do vote to stay in, some people will be better off and some will be worse, but the fuss will die down and life will go on. We will continue to be part of a bigger construct and I personally believe the status quo will continue if we stayed in.
I don't believe there are armies of eurocrats (<- I'm coining that term) waiting to draft laws to wipe our children's prospects away, there aren't armies of migrants that are going to be provided with free transport over from France to rape out lady folk, nor will we live under the threat of doom.
As to freedom to make our own laws? Does this person really think we make our own laws? That privilege is given to a subset of members of a few political parties (with from time to time the odd independent MP thrown in). It is they who decide what our laws should be, not you or I in the street. We vote for an MP...... actually I seriously doubt many people do that, they probably vote for a political party regardless of who that MP is. That MP had then better toe the party line if they want to keep their membership and have the party support at the next election.
If the majority of the country that takes to the polls does vote to stay in, amberlamps will be in the minority, shouting "traitors" from the roof tops. But that very British democratic process that he/she clings to with so much passion will have given its result. I wonder if he/she will accept it?
Fast forward 15 or 20 years. Will those yes voters still be traitors? Will amberlamps be leading the British Independence Army, blowing up those traitorous scum who ruined his/her life, leading the bloody fight to free this island from its shackles of slavery?
I ramble on for the fun of it so I'll conclude
I am genuinely undecided, but if I don't hear any good argument to vote out, I'll vote for the status quo. Simple as that.
Amberlamps reminds me of a Labor activist who knocked on my door in the run up the the general election before last. I can't remember what he started with, but he saw my 3 children pop their heads into the hallway and said (and I quote) "I see you've got kids. Well you'd better vote Labour because that Tory lot want to do the schools in". No, I am not making that up.
He was talking out of his backside and it wasn't an argument that made me vote for his party. Quite the opposite. From this thread I consider his argument the same as that of amberlamps: Made up out of fear, lacking substance, offensive, and given by someone who's made a fool out of themselves and doesn't realise it.
I think i've rambled on enough, so flame all you want, I have no more to add on the subject.
I wish everyone (including amberlamps) a prosperous future regardless of whom we are governed by. Aw, sod it. Forget the EU, I vote to become the 51st state.
Goodnight
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I have tried to remain out of this debate as it can easily get out of control, but I must speak up on this and other issues.
Of course the Scottish Independence vote was an Independence vote (otherwise why name it so?) Obviously the vote was for independence from the UK, not the EU. Scots do not hate the English - they hate the way David Cameron needs to run the UK, as it is now, with a view to becoming an unelected despot through the European Parliament. The SNP activists were NOT motivated by hatred, they were motivated by the need to get away from the English Parliament and govern themselves.
The SNP has been around for about 80 years and has grown steadily from its inception and the vote prompted over 90% of the Scottish population to vote (Passion about this subject was that high). The split was 55% stay, 45% go and my opinion is that the current generation were more concerned about leaving the EU than UK Independence.
Reading this debate has opened my eyes to what the EU is actually doing. The amount of migrants flooding into Europe and the ineptness of governments to administer and regulate the flow is alarming! I do not want to be regarded as a European - I want to be regarded as Scottish. If I wanted to export goods, I do not want to pay the European Parliament to export to China, Japan, Asia, South or North America or Africa - why should they profit from transactions between my country and the destination country (the Rotterdam Effect?). I also hear the EU want dedicated military forces to protect itself. To me this is a scary prospect, as seen in recent history (a severe depression/recession, a European dictator, all out World War).
Finally, David Cameron. A politician in the true sense of the word
Oxford English Dictionary - "A person who acts in a manipulative and devious way, typically to gain advancement within an organization."
I have no doubt this man at least attempted to influence the results of the Scottish Vote.
Now he is ostracising any MP who stands for the European 'Out' campaign. He is also denying them any resources to build a substantial argument to what he thinks is the way Britain should go, just to suit his own selfish ends.
I heard about this late last year:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-council-over-cuts-to-frontline-a6729616.html
This man is feeble and clueless, and as big a threat to Britain as a whole as all of the Bureaucrats in Brussels.
So, for these and other reasons, we need to get 'Out'.
Of course the Scottish Independence vote was an Independence vote (otherwise why name it so?) Obviously the vote was for independence from the UK, not the EU. Scots do not hate the English - they hate the way David Cameron needs to run the UK, as it is now, with a view to becoming an unelected despot through the European Parliament. The SNP activists were NOT motivated by hatred, they were motivated by the need to get away from the English Parliament and govern themselves.
The SNP has been around for about 80 years and has grown steadily from its inception and the vote prompted over 90% of the Scottish population to vote (Passion about this subject was that high). The split was 55% stay, 45% go and my opinion is that the current generation were more concerned about leaving the EU than UK Independence.
Reading this debate has opened my eyes to what the EU is actually doing. The amount of migrants flooding into Europe and the ineptness of governments to administer and regulate the flow is alarming! I do not want to be regarded as a European - I want to be regarded as Scottish. If I wanted to export goods, I do not want to pay the European Parliament to export to China, Japan, Asia, South or North America or Africa - why should they profit from transactions between my country and the destination country (the Rotterdam Effect?). I also hear the EU want dedicated military forces to protect itself. To me this is a scary prospect, as seen in recent history (a severe depression/recession, a European dictator, all out World War).
Finally, David Cameron. A politician in the true sense of the word
Oxford English Dictionary - "A person who acts in a manipulative and devious way, typically to gain advancement within an organization."
I have no doubt this man at least attempted to influence the results of the Scottish Vote.
Now he is ostracising any MP who stands for the European 'Out' campaign. He is also denying them any resources to build a substantial argument to what he thinks is the way Britain should go, just to suit his own selfish ends.
I heard about this late last year:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-council-over-cuts-to-frontline-a6729616.html
This man is feeble and clueless, and as big a threat to Britain as a whole as all of the Bureaucrats in Brussels.
So, for these and other reasons, we need to get 'Out'.
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It won't be a vote for the status quo, and that is the problem.
The Lisbon Treaty gives the EU power over almost everything that affects our lives, eg Criminal Justice, Defence, Foreign Policy. They haven't done much with all that yet, but they will.
Apply the 'Tony Benn' test to the EU govt:
Who voted for you?
How can we kick you out?
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I don't pretend to understand all of the issues, but I do understand common sense http://www.cityam.com/1406894810/eu-parliament-lavishes-114m-year-moving-brussels-strasbourg this is the reason I will vote for OUT.
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A
amberlamps
Is it possible to use democracy to deny your countrymen democracy?
Is it possible for one person to use their vote to deny another person their right to vote?
Do you dispute the fact that it's indecent to want to impose slavery on someone?I want you to dig deep and find the decency within yourself not to impose your comedy upon your fellow citizens.
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amberlamps
Because words are often used to deceive.
Surely you have heard of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea?
Or feminism?
Or anti-racism?
Or progressive?
Those words do not mean what we are supposed to think that they mean.
So, when the Scots were voting for "independence", they were not voting for independence, since the SNP wishes to be a member of the EU, which would mean that Scotland would not be independent on a "yes" vote. Independence from Westminster does not mean independence.
Further, look at how words are used to deceive us in this forthcoming EU vote. The word "Europe" is used in place of "EU", "Eurosceptic" in place of "pro-democracy", and so on.
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amberlamps
Who do you think has a greater chance of better serving the British people - a British politician or a foreign one?
Or, who do you think has the greater chance of making good decisions for your kids - you, or someone unconnected?
Or, who do you think will spend your money more wisely - you, or someone unconnected?
And so on.
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Ah, nice to see someone trying to brighten up a monday morning.
My guess it's one of Sir Earl's usernames.
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That is an an oddity, and I wonder if many inclined to the "In" side really understand that voting to remain is to vote to have no vote in the future?
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amberlamps
If someone wants to rid himself of the right to vote in the future, then the simple answer is for him to not vote in the future; but to vote to rid other people of their right to vote in the future is surely a criminal thing.
If the overall vote is to remain in the EU, and hence the British people lose the fundamental right to rule themselves, then the people who voted out will have to decide for themselves what level of compensation they are due from those who voted to stay in.
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Who do you think has a greater chance of better serving the British people - a British politician or a foreign one?
I personally don't recognize this 'British' thing, I see just people, with borders being imposed by the ones in power, so on the strength of what I've seen in the past from many 'British' politicians would lead me to think that in the greater pool of people which is known as 'The EU' you'd be more likely to stumble upon some more decent, unselfish ones. But that's a guess, same as your guess
Or, who do you think has the greater chance of making good decisions for your kids - you, or someone unconnected?
Hmmm, let me see now. My kids are old enough to make their own decisions - there's no need to involve outside parties in their decision-making process but obviously, like any good parent I can offer them my experience and help to guide them through their early lives. They already have the measure of political systems and how they work so they're ignoring all that baloney and getting on happily with their lives.
Or, who do you think will spend your money more wisely - you, or someone unconnected?
And so on.
I spend my own money. Again, there's no need to try & involve outside parties in this. There's nobody I know who doesn't have enough money for a good lifestyle. Food, a house, cars, phones, laptops, tablets, all mod cons etc etc. Life has never been so easy and yet some people can't help wanting more, and moaning about how they have less than Bob & Beryl over the road. Luckily, these people can be fairly easily spotted because they tend to be fat.
As I said, I'm voting 'Out' just for entertainment value - I'm sure other people have many different reasons but I just like a laff me!
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A good chance you will be able to laff all the way to the bank. Brexit should see food prices reduce by around 15%.
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amberlamps
That wasn't really the point I was making.
What I meant was, in terms of doing what is right for you with the money you pay as taxes, is it more likely to be someone who you can elect or complain to, or someone overseas who you cannot elect nor complain to.
As for the laugh thing, it'll be worth it just to see the look on Cameron's shiny little face. Oh, and we'll be better off, happier, safer, etc, too
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Not sure who that "clever Indian person" was btw. Some not so clever people think Ghandi said it.
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Well it's much simpler than that, you vote them out. However as it is at the moment, we cannot do that, if the rest of the EU decides something, then we have to abide by it, even if every single person that lives in the UK disagrees with it, we cannot do anything about it.
If you think that's democratic, well...
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But you would rather give power to a load of unknowns who have zero interest in how the UK is?
At least the person who leads our country, even if they are a complete idiot they have got a reason to see our country prosper, if they do a bad job we vote them out, that's democracy.
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The problem with the EU is the whole structure is flawed. I predict that the EU will struggle to exist even if we do end up staying in. The current migrant so called 'crisis' is nothing. The major problem is the lack of money and the massive credit bomb that will blow the whole thing to pieces.
So what do we do now about Greece, chuck more money at it? What about Turkey, chuck more money at it? Where does all this money come from again?
Chris.
So what do we do now about Greece, chuck more money at it? What about Turkey, chuck more money at it? Where does all this money come from again?
Chris.
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amberlamps
The Greek economy is in major trouble again: http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/mar/06/grexit-back-on-the-agenda-economy-unravels-reforms
Turkey has just blackmailed the EU into paying it £3 billion, another £3 billion, visa-free entry to the EU by June 2016 and accelerated talk about joining the EU.
The money comes from us, because it's better that we give it to the EU to spend on expansion rather than spend it on ourselves on such things as medical care.
The EU has been a disaster for the British people, as it has for the European peoples in general, and it will get worse.
The solution to these problems will present itself on June 23rd this year. Then we can go after the Blairs, Browns, Mandelsons and Camerons and hold them to account for what they have done, Insh'Allah.
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So basically, we, as a country the taxpayers are going to be paying for Greece's debt to be cut. Well that's just brilliant, can we not just get all the inners to cough it up out of their pockets instead of getting our unborn children to pay for this.
Honestly I really can't see any reason for staying in other than an individuals selfish own interests. If you look at it from a whole countries point of view it just doesn't make sense to stay in, especially from the UK's point of view.
Chris.
Honestly I really can't see any reason for staying in other than an individuals selfish own interests. If you look at it from a whole countries point of view it just doesn't make sense to stay in, especially from the UK's point of view.
Chris.
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amberlamps
It takes me back to a point I made earlier.
Just as the pro-EU lot could pay out of their own pockets, if they want to take away the right of the British people to vote and have a stake in their own future, then why don't they just remove their own votes from the future instead? No-one is forcing them to vote in future elections.
But no, they are of such low quality that they must stab their fellow countrymen in the back also.
Have you ever wondered why some people are religious? Well, the reason for that is the same reason that some people want to be in the EU: their feelings trump everything else. It *feels* right, so it must *be* right.
And yet, these nincompoops have a vote which affects not only their own kids but the kids of everyone else.
If you know of people who want to ruin the future of your children by voting to enslave them within the EU, you are under no obligation to deal with these people in a way which benefits them, from this moment onwards. Let them be responsible for their actions and reap what they want to sow for your kids.
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amberlamps
It turns out that £500 million of it comes from us. Oh, and we get to import loads more third world immigrants also.
This will definitely benefit us a lot more than having a new hospital/ paying down the national debt/ reducing taxes/ investing in infrastructure.
What I like about it is that when someone complains that they are being denied life-saving drugs on cost grounds, they will at least know that the money was well spent.
We'll be off this ride come summer, I hope.
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Is this when a flawed voting system allows in one party who then shifts laws to prevent its opposition from gaining funding or challenging their power?
If you like we can get into the nitty-gritty of moral relativism and pick apart this assertion, but that's boring and beside the point. However, do you dispute the fact that you're using a hilariously hyperbolic strawman?
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amberlamps
I wasn't referring to the religious people being nincompoops because in the context of an EU vote, belief in a traditional religion doesn't necessarily equate to nincompoopery. I was referring to the people who vote with their feelings.
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amberlamps
It's even worse than that.
Yes, I do. Rule by the EU makes slaves of us.
Not slaves in the ancient sense of living in chains, under the whip. This is a modern slavery, living under surveillance, afraid of what we can say, unable to stop our own genocide, unable to change those who govern us.
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amberlamps
Not at all.
"Genocide". "Slavery". "Living under surveillance".
You're just naive.
You're institutionalised.
Surveillance: whenever you drive on major (and some minor) roads, your numberplate is recorded. Whenever you walk in a busy place, your face is recorded and face-recognition software is used in areas of high footfall. You carry around with you a tracking device (let's call it a smart phone), the location of which is recorded. Your communications are monitored for keywords and phrases. Your call and email contacts are recorded (Data Retention Regulations 2014). Your internet browsing activity (including social media), email correspondence, voice calls, internet gaming, and mobile phone messaging services will all soon be recorded for 12 months (at least) (Communications Data Bill).
Does that sound a bit like surveillance to you?
Slavery: your purpose is to pay taxes, and to be obedient, so that your masters can live off your labour and have power over you. You cannot say what you like, and your movements are known at all times. You are given leisure time so that you have the illusion of being free and your masters can expend the least amount of energy in making sure that you pay your money and don't step out of line. However, you are a slave and will become more of one in the EU. You live in a cage but the bars have been hidden from you, nor to you want to see them, because that would require some courage.
Genocide: according to the UN definition, the British people, as well as many peoples in Europe, are being subjected to the following aspects of genocide: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group.
Richard von Coudenhove-Kalergi had a word to say about that.
"I'm A Celebrity" is probably on tonight so there's no need to be concerned with anything other than who is going to win, or have a shower under a waterfall in their bikini! There will also be a new iPhone out soon, not forgetting the new Galaxy S7, so you can concern yourself with wondering what the new features will be! And don't forget to get some Facebook likes! And keep your eye on the house prices!
Anything to distract you.
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