Issues with developers, advice welcome.

[Topkwak]

So as title suggests we're having issues with developers. I'll keep it short and punchy.

Spent 18 months designing concept, testing value proposition with potential customers, gained over 1000 pre-launch signups (and continue to toady) and raised money via bank loan in December 2014 to fund outsourcing dev of site.

Put the project out for tender, awarded to best fit just before Crimbo (note this is more than £10k project). We met around Crimbo also and shared detail of the idea etc. Spec was created signed off in early Jan and designs began. Note - we were told a mid March completion date was tough but possible.

We agreed to pay 4 installments, 25% each step, first at the start, second on design signoff, third on front end completion and forth on project completion.

The designs started to come in and we were very impressed, we fedback comments promptly and proactively which were taken on board and incorporated into following designs. This took approximately 3 months, fair enough they did a fine job, we did comment this was taking a while but no probs, only 3 months in.

Back end development also took some time however we got there, then they started to comment that this project was taking longer than expected and they were going to make a loss on it. We felt that was strange as they priced the project for us.

We were told the site was almost ready and needed final payment so we paid expecting to receive site in following days in good order but it appears front end was rushed, badly, the bugs were embarrising, blatant things that didnt work. By the way we also agreed that they would just produce a minimum viable product and we'd add all the bells and whistles post launch.

Now we have an issue where the company thinks they've completed the site, when its clearly not functioning, no way I'd share it with a potential customer and the developers are being slow, unresponsive and quite rude when we ask for reasonable changes, they think we've used our credit when the site (things on the contract and spec) have not been completed. The spec and contract has not been met while they think we're over budegt, bit of a standoff. Note they have not asked for additional payment.

We've asked for the final payment to be returned until everything is complete, as the original contract stated however they said they won't, however it clearly rattled their cage a bit because in the same week they handed us proverbial keys to site but the proverbial engine didn't work!

To preempt the obvious answer, I know we shouldn't have paid the final payment without the site finished to a satisfactory level, but out of courtesy, because they were running at a loss, we did.

So now we're in a position where we have 1000+ potential customers who want to be part of our platform but with no end in sight and no leverage with monies i.e. no incentive for the company to finish the product.

We have had legal advice who have said they'll help us claw back last payment however am reluctant for this, because we could damage the relationship so much the site is never completed.

Thanks for reading if you got this far! Any advice welcome.

 

[Deleted member 243860]

Oh dear. I suggest meeting with the agency to work out how the loose ends get tied up.

You do not want to find yourself seeking another agency to pick up the pieces. Few will want to get involved and those that do will charge a premium for unchartered territory.

If you can't come to an agreement with the existing agency I would consider legal routes to get your money back (all of it).. and then maybe consider starting the technical build from scratch.

If you need to pump in a bit more cash to get it finished it *may* be worth it. Construction building work often goes over budget due to unforeseen circumstances but so long as a technical programmatic build is planned right and the specs don't change it should NEVER go over budget. The development agency need to hold their hands up and take responsibility.

 

[ryedale]

Sometimes we get pricing wrong.. not very often any more, but it happens.

Unless the client has specifically changed the brief from the original quoted work then we absorb the time/money loss and learn from it for next time

 

[fisicx]

Have they used a standard platform for the site or is it proprietary? If it's the latter you are stuck with these developers for the life of the site. If it uses one of the many standard ecommerce platforms you will at least be able to employ another developer.

This may well drive your next step. If you are stuck with these developers the relationship is always going to be sour and you will be paying for every minor change from now on.

 

[ldjames]

Where are they based? Is it completely obvious from the paperwork that they haven't done their job? How much work (hours) is left?

 

[Topkwak]

Thanks for the responses.

fisicx, its a proprietary platform, to be fair they've built a great platform, its mainly the bugs which are a problem, all of which can be fixed

Idjames, they're based in the South, not fair to reveal name, but its a legitimate business with a decent portfolio and about 20 employees or so. There are key parts from the spec which haven't been developed, much of which we agreed to add post launch as its not fundamental, however a few pages remain which are and the bugs which need solving. At a guess about 20 hours of work for the fundamental stuff but that could be some way out.

We have a phone meeting tomorrow, which I hope will result in a proactive discussion, rather than "that's it"

 

[Deleted member 243860]

If it's the latter you are stuck with thesedevelopers for the life of the site.

I don't agree with that at all. Any decent developer should be able to find their way around so long as the code isn't encrypted.

 

[Schnell Solutions]

In our experience, its best to have a open and transparent discussion with the company along the lines of :

-Document and demo the errors to them....explain why you cannot release it to your clients. Sometimes its just communication gap/misunderstand....things that you think are major fixes can be fixed easily or the other way round!
-Work with them to identify the tasks/steps that are required (at both ends) fix everything and get the software to a production ready stage.
-Get an estimate form them on how much effort will it for them to develop the same - time and money.
-Explore the options to see how they can absorb/reduce costs or adjust the same in support/maintenance/etc.

Judging by what you have mentioned above, its not a 1-3 month project and uses a proprietary platform. To approach another developer/company will mean that they will need to spend a lot of time understanding the code, logic, business case, etc....which will take time and cost money.

If the number what they come back with is reasonable, I would say go with them and agree a agile delivery model whereby they deliver/demo the work in '7/15 day sprints' and you can test it after each sprint. Agree well defined milestones which will trigger payments to them as they are achieved.

Hope this helps. All the best!

 

[fisicx]

Topkwak said it was proprietary - which means it belongs to the developer. Which means you won't even be allowed access to the code.

@Topkwak so you do really need to sort this out with the developers as they are going to be your partners for a long time. The key to tomorrows meeting will be fixing the bugs so the site can go live. They will no doubt counter that your requests for change were outside the spec so make sure you have all the facts pertaining to this to demostrate that the RFQ were part of compliance with the spec.

 

[antropy]

Construction building work often goes over budget due to unforeseen circumstances but so long as a technical programmatic build is planned right and the specs don't change it should NEVER go over budget.

Total nonsense. Programming work is in many ways MORE susceptible to unforeseen circumstances than construction work.

The development agency need to hold their hands up and take responsibility.

Agreed.

I don't agree with that at all. Any decent developer should be able to find their way around so long as the code isn't encrypted.

You're not an experienced software developer are you?

 

[Deleted member 243860]

You're not an experienced software developer are you?

Yes. 15 years LAMP experience. If you are a developer you should be able to pull apart someone else's code and work with it. If you are not a developer in your company you have clearly hired or have been put with poor ones.

We have hired countless developers to come into existing projects that have little or no documentation. They normally get on just fine.

 

[fisicx]

Still doesn't change the fact that the code is proprietary so no matter how good your skills you aren't going to get a chance to fix it.

 

[Deleted member 243860]

How did the meeting go? Is it really proprietary?

 

[Deleted member 243860]

Still doesn't change the fact that the code is proprietary so no matter how good your skills you aren't going to get a chance to fix it.

Good point.

 

[antropy]

Yes. 15 years LAMP experience

That's a lot of experience.

If you are a developer you should be able to pull apart someone else's code and work with it. If you are not a developer in your company you have clearly hired or have been put with poor ones.

I'd agree if the code is of a certain level of quality, but in my experience is that's not always a fair assumption.

We have hired countless developers to come into existing projects that have little or no documentation. They normally get on just fine.

Same. But you're telling me in 15 years you haven't had any problem projects?

 

[Deleted member 243860]

Same. But you're telling me in 15 years you haven't had any problem projects?

I very much have and I'm being a bit idealistic which isn't very fair. I recently worked on an ecommerce build for one of the largest television broadcasters in the world. It was shambolic. In practise it should have been fine but the Agile project management approach wasn't executed properly and became a "make it up as you go along" situation. The PM's were the client and it went over the timescale due to poor planning and far too many people being involved. Don't get me wrong I think the agile approach is great if done right.

There is nothing more frustrating for a developer to spend a week writing code to be told they don't want it like that after all.. have it all taken out then a month down the line the stakeholders say they want it back again. Grr. I later found out that I was part of the second build team as the first build went completely t!ts up and the developers in the US were being sued by the TV company for not meeting the deadlines. God knows how we made it though and to be fair we nearly didn't at times.

It just goes to show that issues like this can happen no matter the size of the organisation. One thing is for sure.. I will NEVER work for that client again.

Realistically.. specifications do change in most projects or I suppose you can get an unforeseen circumstance like learning that a certain 3rd party integration is going to be dropped and a new one needs to be made. Maybe you integrated Google Analytics for ecommerce and then discovered that actually Google Tag Manager was needed instead. So yes unforeseen circumstances are very possible.

It would be interesting to hear the opinion of both sides of this project as to how this failed. I'm sure all will be resolved eventually.

 

[Topkwak]

Hi all - update following the call yesterday - very pleased.

We had an open and honest discussion about our frustrations which they understood, they admitted they shouldn't have worded an email a certain way (the one which made us think they had completed everything).

We concluded its in both our interests to have a fully functioning site, good for their portfolio, good for us so we get what we came (paid) for. However it was noted that patience was needed our side because of the time spent on the site. Time taken by the developers is more than 400 hours so far, 70 hours in the last month alone. They admitted it wasn't PM'd their side the best.

Meeting Monday again to discuss the platform again so very pleased, we're going to iron out bugs as well as discuss certain features needed for a commercial perspective. Back to productivity!

I can see from the above the thread has ignited some discussion on proprietary dev. Can't add anything to this myself about whether its possible or not to feed in a new developer for a prop platform but I hope it comes in useful for someone else.

 

[ryedale]

Glad to hear you are back on track

 

[Deleted member 243860]

Excellent news!

 

[japancool]

Topkwak said it was proprietary - which means it belongs to the developer.

Depends what he means by that. If Topkwak paid for the platform to be developed for him, and the terms of the contract include access to the code (and it should), there's no reason why he shouldn't have access to it.

If it's running on top of a pre-existing platform the developers have created for multiple clients, or the contract stipulates the IP remains with the developers, I agree.

 

[antropy]

I very much have and I'm being a bit idealistic which isn't very fair. I recently worked on an ecommerce build for one of the largest television broadcasters in the world. It was shambolic. In practise it should have been fine but the Agile project management approach wasn't executed properly and became a "make it up as you go along" situation. The PM's were the client and it went over the timescale due to poor planning and far too many people being involved. Don't get me wrong I think the agile approach is great if done right.

Haha exactly, even the biggest and best companies have project management failures. IT projects are notorious for going over budget which was why I was confused by your initial post.

There is nothing more frustrating for a developer to spend a week writing code to be told they don't want it like that after all.. have it all taken out then a month down the line the stakeholders say they want it back again. Grr. I later found out that I was part of the second build team as the first build went completely t!ts up and the developers in the US were being sued by the TV company for not meeting the deadlines. God knows how we made it though and to be fair we nearly didn't at times.

Yeah, been there also. Not fun.

It just goes to show that issues like this can happen no matter the size of the organisation. One thing is for sure.. I will NEVER work for that client again.

Maybe it was a mess but you got paid right? And they've learned from it for next time? So never say never

Realistically.. specifications do change in most projects or I suppose you can get an unforeseen circumstance like learning that a certain 3rd party integration is going to be dropped and a new one needs to be made. Maybe you integrated Google Analytics for ecommerce and then discovered that actually Google Tag Manager was needed instead. So yes unforeseen circumstances are very possible.

Or perhaps when putting together the proposal it doesn't make business sense to figure out exactly how you will implement every single feature and build a PoC, but when it comes to building it, you hit an impasse. Computer says no. No matter how many years you've been programming, whether you're Bill Gates, Linus Torvalds, Richard Stalman or whoever, this still happens.

It would be interesting to hear the opinion of both sides of this project as to how this failed. I'm sure all will be resolved eventually.

Certainly would and it sounds like there's been some progress ...

 

[antropy]

Where are they based? Is it completely obvious from the paperwork that they haven't done their job? How much work (hours) is left?

What paperwork?