Green Deal launch and the opportunities available.

[Psl]

The Green Deal launches fully on Monday, and if you haven't heard about it, it basically works this way;

A Green Deal Assessor -GD- will visit your home or business and assess how energy efficient the property is.

The GD will then pass the report and the recommended measures (products) that should be installed in the property to a Green Deal Provider-GDP. They will then instruct a Green Deal Authorised Installer to install the measures (products).

The cost of the installation of these measures are then added to your electricity bill and the total cost is repaid over a period of up to 25 years.
So yes this is a finance package and it has just been announced that the Green Deal finance rate is to be 7.67%, but this the GOV so this figure could change tomorrow

The measures (products) available to be installed are;
Air source heat pumps
Biomass boilers
Biomass room heaters (with radiators)
Cavity wall insulation
Cylinder thermostats
Draught proofing
Energy efficient glazing
External wall insulation
Fan-assisted replacement storage heaters
Flue gas heat recovery devices
Ground source heat pumps
Heating controls (for wet central heating systems and warm air systems)
High efficiency gas-fired condensing boilers
High efficiency replacement warm-air units
High thermal performance external doors
Hot water cylinder insulation
Internal wall insulation
Lighting systems, fittings and controls
Loft or rafter insulation and loft hatch insulation
Mechanical ventilation with heat recovery
Micro combined heat and power
Micro wind generation
Oil-fired condensing boilers
Photovoltaics
Roof insulation
Room in roof (loft) insulation
Solar water heating
Under-floor heating
Under-floor insulation
Waste water heat recovery devices attached to showers.

So if you supply any of the above products you should looking very closely at how you can become part of the Green Deal.

The other big opportunity is the generation of confirmed leads for the GDA's, remember them? they are the Green Deal Assessors and the point man/woman/person (gotta be PC about this) in the Green Deal

So, outbound tele appointments makers, door to door canvass teams, in-store demonstrators could all benefit form providing their services to the GDA's and GDP's.

Some GDA's work for the GDP's and some. I would suspect most, are independent, and so they would need leads specific to certain areas.

Other professional services like business advisors and accountants could refer their clients to GDA's and GDP's, for a fee of course, as a referral is much better than a generated lead.

But before you rush off to start generating those leads there two distinct types of leads that can be generated;

1. Credit worthy leads.
and
2. Non credit worthy leads.

As the Green Deal has been set up by the GOV it is complicated, so here are the basics;

To qualify for the Green Deal measures to be installed the householder has to be credit worthy. The finance is against the property and not the person so when the householder moves the new householder takes on the payments.

The non-credit worthy could fall under the remit of ECO's and the Affordable Warmth Obligation, but that's a whole new thread in itself

Why are there credit worthy and non credit worthy leads? Because the Green Deals is essentially a finance deal.

And one last thing - it will cost householders between £80 and £250 to have an assessment done by a GDA and it should take approx two hours.

One big energy efficiency supplier is offering the assessments for free at the moment, but because I am working with all of them to supply my products, I wouldn't like to give their name out in the thread.PM's are welcome though

 

[UKSBD]

Did someone mention Bandwagon? - http://www.sim64.co.uk/uk/uksbd-launch-green-deal-assessors-directory/

 

[Psl]

Did someone mention Bandwagon? - http://www.sim64.co.uk/uk/uksbd-launch-green-deal-assessors-directory/

Are you or have joined the LinkedIn groups to do with the Green Deal yet?

 

[UKSBD]

Are you or have joined the LinkedIn groups to do with the Green Deal yet?

Unfortunately there is just not enough hours in the day at the moment.
Far too busy playing on Google+

 

[smo]

I'm not sure I like the sound of this....

You are looking to move, find a nice house and then discover that the sellers have installed X,Y,Z and lumbered you with 25 years of hyper inflated bills and interest payments paying off these "green" measures.

 

[vvaannmmaann]

Oh this is the one that as of three days ago had two people sign up to? Then they can get a unsecured loan at 7% on the proviso that their energy saving covers their monthly re-payments!

Based on a £5,000 loan with an interest rate of 7pc, householders would be required to pay back around £10,600 over 25 years and would therefore need to achieve energy efficiency savings of £425 a year to cover their annual repayments.

Genius.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...l-Only-two-sign-up-despite-1000-cashback.html

 

[Psl]

I'm not sure I like the sound of this....

You are looking to move, find a nice house and then discover that the sellers have installed X,Y,Z and lumbered you with 25 years of hyper inflated bills and interest payments paying off these "green" measures.

Yep, that's about the measure of it. But you do help GB plc try and hit the targets under the Kyoto Protocol.

 

[Psl]

Oh this is the one that as of three days ago had two people sign up to? Then they can get a unsecured loan at 7% on the proviso that their energy saving covers their monthly re-payments!

Based on a £5,000 loan with an interest rate of 7pc, householders would be required to pay back around £10,600 over 25 years and would therefore need to achieve energy efficiency savings of £425 a year to cover their annual repayments.

Genius.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...l-Only-two-sign-up-despite-1000-cashback.html

It's up to 7 now

 

[vvaannmmaann]

Well done.

 

[Psl]

Well done.

The increase in take up had nothing to do with me

 

[Talay]

Who on earth would take out a 25 year loan for such a small amount and at such a high interest rate ?

Smells like a disaster for miss selling waiting to happen.

 

[Psl]

Who on earth would take out a 25 year loan for such a small amount and at such a high interest rate ?

Smells like a disaster for miss selling waiting to happen.

It is up to 25 years.

There has been a very strict vetting process, apparently, before individuals and companies can be accredited under the Green Deal to be either GDA's or GDP's.
Including ensuring those involved have clean credit records!

I am sure some Afur Daleys will slip through.

 

[MrCloser]

Who on earth would take out a 25 year loan for such a small amount and at such a high interest rate ?

That's like saying what sort of fool would waste 20% of their energy bills for the next 25 years without bothering to improve insulation and boiler efficiency - that's most of us.

A lot of energy saving measures have quite a long payback period over the years. The 'deal' is that the energy savings are funded from the money you would otherwise have wasted on fuel.

Personally I'd rather waste it on interest payments rather than waste it on buying more CO2 to waste up the chimney.

 

[bluelight]

Ahhhh Yes,

The Green Deal here at last!

I am going to sit back and watch the governments handling of this 'new innovation', implode just like the debacle with the FIT's. (And come to think of it, virtually every other project they have ever tried be they labour, conservative or as is fashionable now a coalition).

What tennant in their right mind (and I know a few of them, having been in this game for the last 5 years) is going to allow (or going to be credit worthy enough!) a portion of his/her, 'hard earned' benefit to go towards improving the landlords property instead of being able to spend the savings on more booze or fags?

Don't get me wrong, I would love for it to take off as it would give me an excuse to put my surveyors on training courses for DEA/GDA and lose £1500 per person in the process!

I just cannot see people being enthused enough to allow a survey to be done that would take upto 2 and a half hours on their property (and pay for the pleasure of it!???) so that they can then take the, 'independent' report and shop around for the best, 'independent' deal on whatever measure has been prescribed to them......................

Please, please, please can someone explain the governments logic to me?

Shattered in South Wales

 

[MrCloser]

What tennant in their right mind (and I know a few of them, having been in this game for the last 5 years) is going to allow (or going to be credit worthy enough!) a portion of his/her, 'hard earned' benefit to go towards improving the landlords property instead of being able to spend the savings on more booze or fags?



You don't understand Green Deal at all do you? If you can't keep up with the deabte or bother to understand the facts then best keep out of it.

If you are funding a property empire out of the housing benefit payments of the 'feckless and workshy' booze and fags yobs, does that make you any better?

 

[bluelight]

Tutt, Tutt,

You are assuming quite a lot aren't you?

FYI, I have been in the insulation/renewables industry for around 12 years now and follow the whimsical flow of it very well thank you.

In regards to your quip about funding a property empire with people on benefits........... I do no such thing! Once again your assumption is incorrect.

Ooops! Sorry, you are a solar pv engineer and as such MUST know everything about the GD

Have a pleasant day!

 

[vvaannmmaann]

It was pointed out to me that any debts incurred stay with the property for the entire duration of the loan.
Will this cause more problems with the house selliing market?

 

[Psl]

It was pointed out to me that any debts incurred stay with the property for the entire duration of the loan.
Will this cause more problems with the house selliing market?

It may do but any savvy buyer would ask the seller to agree to clear any outstanding loans under the Green Deal on completion. Some sellers may some may not, it just depends on how much they want to sell their house.

One thing is for sure, solicitors will benefit from the extra work involved.

 

[Psl]

Tutt, Tutt,

You are assuming quite a lot aren't you?

FYI, I have been in the insulation/renewables industry for around 12 years now and follow the whimsical flow of it very well thank you.

In regards to your quip about funding a property empire with people on benefits........... I do no such thing! Once again your assumption is incorrect.

Ooops! Sorry, you are a solar pv engineer and as such MUST know everything about the GD

Have a pleasant day!

Are you getting involved in GD then? Either as a GDP or GDI?

What other renewable products do you provide?

 

[vvaannmmaann]

Which? are advising people to be wary of the scheme.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/gr...ry-of-Green-Deal-warns-consumer-watchdog.html

 

[MrCloser]

FYI, I have been in the insulation/renewables industry for around 12 years now and follow the whimsical flow of it very well thank you.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but payments are taken directly from fuel bills, the savings fund the improvements. What does booze and fags have to do with anything?
There is lots of working people living in rented houses too.

As for assumptions, actually I dropped solar pv in 2011.

 

[Psl]

FYI, I have been in the insulation/renewables industry for around 12 years now and follow the whimsical flow of it very well thank you.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but payments are taken directly from fuel bills, the savings fund the improvements. What does booze and fags have to do with anything?
There is lots of working people living in rented houses too.

As for assumptions, actually I dropped solar pv in 2011.

The improvements are paid for via the electricity bill and the 'booze and fags' section as they have been referred to, will have their certain number of energy saving efficiencies paid for under the 'Affordable Warmth Obligation' by the energy companies, if they live private rented accommodation, this is a direct response to 'fuel poverty', the political element of the Green Deal.

All those living in social housing and housing association will also have the measures installed under the 'AWO' by their landlords.

Householders don't have to have any measures installed under the Green Deal, and they can pay for the measures themselves, but the fact remains that there are business opportunities for those sectors mentioned in my original post.

The savings that could be made from installing the energy saving measures should be greater than the cost of installing them - 'The Golden Rules'

 

[MrCloser]

Thanks for clarifying that, I understand certain insulation measures pre-green deal were already non-means tested and available for anyone, loft insulation and cavity wall for example, funded by the energy companies.

The savings that could be made from installing the energy saving measures should be greater than the cost of installing them - 'The Golden Rules'

So the bad pr around Green Deal is rather unfounded, either waste it up the chimmeny or waste slightly less on interest payments, if one doesn't have the capital to finance the work themelves.

Either of the three options could mean more booze and fags money for everyone: tenants, homeowners and GD contractors ?

 

[prjbicell]

I would doubt that a loan of £5000 would have to be taken over 25 years at all. Also lots of GDA's are doing free assessments on the proviso you use their funders. Give the Green deal time. So much negative press could kill it before it even gets off the ground and prove itself. That's what I say anyway..lol

 

[bluelight]

Are you getting involved in GD then? Either as a GDP or GDI?

What other renewable products do you provide?

We are going into it as a GDP with our own GDA support but I am going to be waiting a few more months for the whole nonsense to settle down.

I would be interested in speaking to you regarding your products also

Cheers

 

[Psl]

Are you getting involved in GD then? Either as a GDP or GDI?

What other renewable products do you provide?

We are going into it as a GDP with our own GDA support but I am going to be waiting a few more months for the whole nonsense to settle down.

I would be interested in speaking to you regarding your products also

Cheers

Are you asking me Bluelight?

On one level I am involved in getting a new measure listed on the GD register and on another level our biomass supply and installation partners are looking at becoming and GDP and GDI, but the big issue is how to integrate the GD with the RHI? At the moment it is a no brainer to install a biomass boiler and reclaim the RHI outside of the GD.

It does get interesting when the domestic RHI is launched, hopefully in the summer. Why? Because for a domestic biomass install to qualify for the domestic RHI they need to have all the GD measures recommended by an assessor installed. And unlike the commercial RHI payments, the domestic RHI payments will be granted for 20 years but paid in full over 7 years, so a great deal for the homeowner. And the domestic RHI could offset the cost of the GD measures installed.

The same could happen for commercial installs - offsetting GD costs of measures installed, but we are still crunching the numbers as there is no real data to go on.

I am also in dialogue to bring a new small scale CHP plant to the UK.
This CHP plant could generate £25k in RHI payments and £28k' s worth of electricity per annum, at todays prices. So this could be a winner as it addresses both heat and power requirements of small business.

And to answer your question, if it was directed at me, by all means lets talk and see what we can do to help each other.

 

[JTPR]

We have ECO/GD/CSCO funding available and ready to go. With qualified surveyors

Looking for reliable leads. So feel free to PM.

Also, I was under the impression the big5 were only doing the GDAR free if the household took measures recommended with them, if not, they had to pay...ONE of the big ones...was listing a GDAR for £99 last week

 

[JTPR]

I would doubt that a loan of £5000 would have to be taken over 25 years at all. Also lots of GDA's are doing free assessments on the proviso you use their funders. Give the Green deal time. So much negative press could kill it before it even gets off the ground and prove itself. That's what I say anyway..lol

The repayment period is based on the expected lifespan of the measures taken, so it would depend on the measures taken to the repayment period

EWI is the only measure that doesnt fall into the "golden rule", that will still be funded!

 

[MrCloser]

This 25 year repayment period that is being bandied about seems a red herring, replacing an A rated boiler for an old C rated or increasing loft insulation to 300mm are all fast payback within 5 years.

Fuel will continue to go up, that is the only certainty. Low interest rates and sharp fuel inflation makes the deal even better.

My opinion being also the not so obvious price above the bottom line cost doesn't even show on our energy bills...I'm referring to the blood price paid by our armed forces in protecting our domestic oil and gas supplies in the guise of anti-terrorism.


.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

I may be being blonde, but why are people talking about tennants when the deal is secured upon property? Surely only the property owner can agree to this?

This is another disaster waiting to happen, it is clear from the clamour for leads that this is going to be about lies deceipt and people charging a couple of hundred quid for a survey even when those paying don't have a hope in hell of getting finance.

What we will see is the cowboys of the sales world, those who have been hassling people mercilessly for PPI, double glazing etc, move on to this.

This is going to end in compensation being paid out by the government is my guess.

 

[MrCloser]

I may be being blonde, but why are people talking about tennants when the deal is secured upon property? Surely only the property owner can agree to this?

This is another disaster waiting to happen, it is clear from the clamour for leads that this is going to be about lies deceipt and people charging a couple of hundred quid for a survey even when those paying don't have a hope in hell of getting finance.

What we will see is the cowboys of the sales world, those who have been hassling people mercilessly for PPI, double glazing etc, move on to this.

This is going to end in compensation being paid out by the government is my guess.

I guess any rented properties will need permission of the owner, that was certainly the case in previous incentives. Most landlords shouldn't object to home improvements at no expense to themselves, as long as it is done right.

A bit early to see where it is going, like most business there will be bigger players emerging over time who will maybe offer cheap or free surveys to pre-credit checked prospects.

Everyone from millionaire mansions to the dodgy credit pre-payment card meter tenants will be able to fund improvements through savings, taken direct from utility bills, if I understand this right.

As for cowboys, they exist in every business and will mainly be door knocking and phone canvassing, but the surveyors and installers will all be accredited. The profits will be in the improvements, not the survey.
The failure or success of this will be down to how well the surveys and installs are policed.

Most of this negativity around Green Deal is quite unfounded and premature imo. As the BBC news today noted, our reliance on imported gas is an energy crisis unfolding fast- I could have told them that 10 years ago. Energy security and energy conservation go hand in hand.

Sorry I do think you are being blonde, with maybe a blue rinse.


.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

I guess any rented properties will need permission of the owner, that was certainly the case in previous incentives. Most landlords shouldn't object to home improvements at no expense to themselves, as long as it is done right.

Of course there is expense, there will be a legal charge on their property which would result in a tax liability at the point of borrowing! It also reduces the balance sheet accordingly

A bit early to see where it is going, like most business there will be bigger players emerging over time who will maybe offer cheap or free surveys to pre-credit checked prospects.

Everyone from millionaire mansions to the dodgy credit pre-payment card meter tenants will be able to fund improvements through savings, taken direct from utility bills, if I understand this right.

As for cowboys, they exist in every business and will mainly be door knocking and phone canvassing, but the surveyors and installers will all be accredited. The profits will be in the improvements, not the survey.
The failure or success of this will be down to how well the surveys and installs are policed.
THIS is where I see it all going wrong and what I was aluding to THIS is where the cowboys will be and I have no question about there being cowboys at this stage because I know of a load of cowboys who are only interested in earning from this and nothing else.

Most of this negativity around Green Deal is quite unfounded and premature imo.
Which is of equal value as those of us who expect it to be another fiasco that will end up being bailed out by the tax payer.

As the BBC news today noted, our reliance on imported gas is an energy crisis unfolding fast- I could have told them that 10 years ago. Energy security and energy conservation go hand in hand.
I don't question the need to save energy, I question the scheme itself, not the motives. I think you need to understand that.

The answer to our ills are monumentally simple (with regards supply) , and that is nuclear power. it is by far the best option for the long term stability of price, is by far the cleanest whemn it comes to this alleged global warming story. what we really should have done was push towards nuclear as 100% of our required energy, we would then not be at the mercy of foreign oil suppliers or Foreign energy suppliers. The government should have funded the reactors, and pumped it straight into the grid.

Sorry I do think you are being blonde, with maybe a blue rinse.
Not blue rinse at all, as stated above, do you seriously expect a property owner to face a whacking great tax bill because he has borrowed money to make the house more efficient? Are there specific tax laws to cover this scenario? Or is THAT question too blue rinse for you?

.

replied inline

 

[MrCloser]

Agreed on the nuclear option, I've been thinking that for years. We use plenty of it from France anyway.

On the tax implications, I hadn't even considered it, can you explain how that would work?

 

[OldWelshGuy]

If you borrow money against a property asset it can be classed as income, because you have converted property into cash. So unless there is an equal amount of tax relief available (or dieally more than 100% relief) then no landlord in their right mind is going to agree to the deal. It also impacts on the LTV ratio of the property portfolio.

If the government introduced say 140% tax relief on green deal investments, then you would have landords lining up so sign up, (providing the equity issue is OK).

 

[JTPR]

I may be being blonde, but why are people talking about tennants when the deal is secured upon property? Surely only the property owner can agree to this?

This is another disaster waiting to happen, it is clear from the clamour for leads that this is going to be about lies deceipt and people charging a couple of hundred quid for a survey even when those paying don't have a hope in hell of getting finance.

What we will see is the cowboys of the sales world, those who have been hassling people mercilessly for PPI, double glazing etc, move on to this.

This is going to end in compensation being paid out by the government is my guess.

Because the tenants have a say in it...

The home owner, the landlord has to give permission...ALSO, whoever the bill payer is for the electricity is has to give permission, whether this is a tenant or the landlord because it is included, has to sign on the dotted line.

Im fully DEA and GD qualified, and have signed up one landlord with 13 properties yesterday, and a further 4 today with another landlord, and have appointments with different landlord each day for the next two weeks. Which me and my team will be doing over the next months, there is not a shortage of landlords wanting this thats for sure.

Maybe I just know more of the positives and negatives for this than most, but there seems to be alot of bad press about it all, mostly unfounded.

You talk about nuclear power...Do you know how many stations the UK would need to be self sufficient? Do you know how long a single one would take to be built if we started tomorrow? And do you know the cost of this?

Nuclear is a LONG term solution... Best case scenario is 10 years to have ONE done...

 

[OldWelshGuy]

Because the tenants have a say in it...

The home owner, the landlord has to give permission...ALSO, whoever the bill payer is for the electricity is has to give permission, whether this is a tenant or the landlord because it is included, has to sign on the dotted line.

Im fully DEA and GD qualified, and have signed up one landlord with 13 properties yesterday, and a further 4 today with another landlord, and have appointments with different landlord each day for the next two weeks. Which me and my team will be doing over the next months, there is not a shortage of landlords wanting this thats for sure.

Maybe I just know more of the positives and negatives for this than most, but there seems to be alot of bad press about it all, mostly unfounded.

You talk about nuclear power...Do you know how many stations the UK would need to be self sufficient? Do you know how long a single one would take to be built if we started tomorrow? And do you know the cost of this?

Nuclear is a LONG term solution... Best case scenario is 10 years to have ONE done...

Yep, lovely to hear all your qulification stuff, really pleased for you. But you didn't answer the question, what tax reliefs /incentives are there for landlords to sign up? Oddly enough many private landlords are not aware of the tax implications of borrowing against property, so because youa re 'signing them up' doesn't mean it is right, which is what we are debating here. My point is there are wider implications than those at the surface.

oops sorry didn't answer your questions. I would guestimate between 20-30 would be needed, would cost roughly £3B a piece, and should take no more than 12 years maximum (less if they steamsrolloered over the planning NIMBY's. Did I mention that originally I studied civil engineering

 

[JTPR]

My point is this, I'm actually qualified to give a professional opinion on this. Whereas yours is more your personal opinion

We advise landlords with clarity of the financial implications, with clarity as per our codes of practise. We also advise them on the tax reliefs they get

Bit more research is needed from you

 

[OldWelshGuy]

My point is this, I'm actually qualified to give a professional opinion on this. Whereas yours is more your personal opinion

We advise landlords with clarity of the financial implications, with clarity as per our codes of practise. We also advise them on the tax reliefs they get

Bit more research is needed from you

Oh I see I see so what you are saying then is that you claim to know and that you have no intention of answering simple questions about tax relief in order to further the debate. It was a simple enough question, one that an expert could have answered in an instant, you however preferred to play the expert, and simply say that you know and you're not telling.

Imagine how this forum would be if everyone behaved like yourself.

Thanks however for confirming my concerns about the whole system and what is driving it, and those who are operating within it.

 

[Martin Jones]

nationwide are now offering loans for the energy saving measures what green deal cover and at a better rate, here ...(it's 2.29%)

*Edit* You will have to google it as I can't post a link yet

Customers can borrow between £5,000 and £20,000 and will have an open market choice of suppliers giving them the opportunity to select a national brand or a local firm.

For a company like mine that install external wall insulation and render systems, this is a good thing as there will be no middleman getting in on the act to then contract the work out to me just because they have positioned themselves in between me and a customer.

It's only available to Nationwides mortgage customers but it will only be a matter of time before others lenders follow.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

nationwide are now offering loans for the energy saving measures what green deal cover and at a better rate, here ...(it's 2.29%)

*Edit* You will have to google it as I can't post a link yet

Customers can borrow between £5,000 and £20,000 and will have an open market choice of suppliers giving them the opportunity to select a national brand or a local firm.

For a company like mine that install external wall insulation and render systems, this is a good thing as there will be no middleman getting in on the act to then contract the work out to me just because they have positioned themselves in between me and a customer.

It's only available to Nationwides mortgage customers but it will only be a matter of time before others lenders follow.

And this is exactly the sort of thing to be worried about. Companies getting qualified as installers, and never installing a thing, just passing it out to another guy at a greatly reduced rate.