Recommendation for help - employment law

[rich998]

I've recently made one of my two employees redundant only to find that he is now trying to get some sort of compensation out of me.

Can anyone recommend someone who can help me with this?

 

[arcon5]

how long have they worked for you?
what process did you follow?

For anybody to help you will need to be a little more descriptive.. some background would be useful..

 

[rich998]

I don't really want to go into details, but rather find some representation.

As far as process, everything was textbook, except for the initial 'consultation' stage. It was more of a call saying 'Sorry, but I'm going to have to make your redundant', although this was not a complete surprise as both employees were aware of how the company is doing as we regularly (but informally) discuss this.

 

[Cobby]

A chap called Karl Limpert frequents these sorts of threads and knows his stuff, his username is "Employment Law Clinic", I know he'd be the first stop I made in such a situation. Good luck.

 

[tree568]

Did you pay the ex-employee the statutory amount of redundancy pay he was entitled to? This link may be useful in working out what compensation you may have to pay:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/RedundancyAndLeavingYourJob/Redundancy/DG_174330

 

[rich998]

Thanks for the help so far.

He worked for 18 months with us so as far as I know, there is no redundancy owed.

I've paid one week in lieu and holiday pay, and owes the company just under this total amount. His contract clearly states what and debt is to be cleared before final payment is made, be he is demanding 2 weeks full pay and holiday without the deduction.

He is contesting the initial redundancy notice in that he was not warned about it and he was selected over the other employee who works for me. I was away at the time and had chance to look at the quarterly figures which my first though was time to close the business, but after a day or so I decided to make one of them redundant.

Cobby - Will try and locate this Karl chap.

 

[KernowQueen]

this is Karl's website

 

[PI Guy]

I don't really want to go into details, but rather find some representation.

As far as process, everything was textbook, except for the initial 'consultation' stage. It was more of a call saying 'Sorry, but I'm going to have to make your redundant', although this was not a complete surprise as both employees were aware of how the company is doing as we regularly (but informally) discuss this.

check out Rebecca Allen on http://www.realsupport.co.uk/ and mention i sent you.

 

[rich998]

Karl was kind enough to call me back this afternoon. Thanks Karl.

I will be using his services if it comes to a tribunal.

 

[tree568]

Thanks for the help so far.

He worked for 18 months with us so as far as I know, there is no redundancy owed.

I've paid one week in lieu and holiday pay, and owes the company just under this total amount. His contract clearly states what and debt is to be cleared before final payment is made, be he is demanding 2 weeks full pay and holiday without the deduction.

He is contesting the initial redundancy notice in that he was not warned about it and he was selected over the other employee who works for me. I was away at the time and had chance to look at the quarterly figures which my first though was time to close the business, but after a day or so I decided to make one of them redundant.

quote]

If he worked 18 months for you, then he should receive statutory redundancy. You can't contract out of this in an employment contract. Well, at least, the government site direct.gov.uk states:

"
Your employer cannot offer you less than the statutory minimum through your employment contract."

Statutory redundancy pay

The calculation for your statutory redundancy pay is based on:

• how long you have been continuously employed
• your age
• your weekly pay, up to a certain limit (£430 current maximum)

You will get:

• 0.5 week’s pay for each full year of service where your age was under 22
• 1 week’s pay for each full year of service where your age was 22 or above, but under 41
• 1.5 week’s pay for each full year of service where your age was 41 or above

If you have made him redundant, then how do you figure, given he has worked for you for over a year, that you don't owe him any redundancy pay?

I feel for you. This is precisely the kind of event that puts people like me, running a small business, off employing anyone. This is a good site and talks about obligations regarding making people redundant in some detail http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/RedundancyAndLeavingYourJob/Redundancy/DG_10029832
but it fails to address, imho, the practical considerations.

Take your situation, employing a couple of people and having to lay one of them off due, presumably, to a downturn in the business. these are the permittable reasons you can use to decide which one to let go:

- disciplinary records
- experience
- capability
- relevant skills and competence

But say you can argue on these grounds for either one of the people. What if they both have relevant experience, skills, experience, capability and have no disciplinary problems? So here I am, contemplating employing people, and I try to imagine being in your shoes one day. There I am, now only with enough work for one person rather than two and I have to decide which one to let go. So I look into my crystal ball and decide , moving into the future, person X will be a better bet for my company than person Y. Even though they both tick all the above boxes.

What does this mean exactly? That getting rid of either of them exposes me to a claim for unfair dismissal because I can't make a selection based on the above criteria? Do we have to destroy our whole business, close the whole thing down and lay everyone off, including ourselves, just to avoid the scenario the OP finds himself in? Are we meant to run our businesses paying ourselves last (well, we do that anyway, because the employees probably would get paid ahead of the business owner) or maybe ourselves and our creditors not at all because we don't want to end up in front of a tribunal if we have to let someone go?

 

[rich998]

Well, for the record, I will be taking the next person on (when things hopefully pick up again) as self-employed.

With the criteria you've used, the redundant party falls way short of the person I've kept on. He even had a final warning letter from me back in Jan/Feb because of his poor work performance and he stupidly admitted he uses drugs. So if he was to smash up a customer's vehicle, where would I stand?

I can't get rid of him as I risk prosecution (and no evidence to support his drug taking), but I can't keep him either... :|

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

If he worked 18 months for you, then he should receive statutory redundancy. You can't contract out of this in an employment contract. Well, at least, the government site direct.gov.uk states:

"
Your employer cannot offer you less than the statutory minimum through your employment contract."

Statutory redundancy pay

The calculation for your statutory redundancy pay is based on:

• how long you have been continuously employed
• your age
• your weekly pay, up to a certain limit (£430 current maximum)

You will get:

For redundancy pay purposes, the important criteria here is the length of service: there is nothing due for employment of less than 2 years.



Karl Limpert

 

[tree568]

For redundancy pay purposes, the important criteria here is the length of service: there is nothing due for employment of less than 2 years.

Karl Limpert

Fair enough. But if the procedure for dismissing the person/making them redundant wasn't followed correctly (didn't the OP say that the initial contact on the subject was via a phone call?) what is to stop the person claiming unfair dismissal?

I realise that from the 6th of April 2012, the qualifying period for claiming this is two years employment, but for those employed prior to that date it is only one year.

Maybe it would just be better in this case to pay up so that the problem goes away?

 

[tree568]

Well, for the record, I will be taking the next person on (when things hopefully pick up again) as self-employed.

With the criteria you've used, the redundant party falls way short of the person I've kept on. He even had a final warning letter from me back in Jan/Feb because of his poor work performance and he stupidly admitted he uses drugs. So if he was to smash up a customer's vehicle, where would I stand?

I can't get rid of him as I risk prosecution (and no evidence to support his drug taking), but I can't keep him either... :|

We, to date, have used casual/contract labour, mainly because we don't have an ongoing need for people - just the odd piece of work every now and then. The locksmith downstairs uses casual labour. He has a couple of women who work a couple of days each a week for him. They just invoice him every month. I don't know what they do about their NICS and he doesn't care. The kebab shop uses contractors - that's fairly standard in the catering business anyway. The nail salon and hairdresser makes money out of their "employees", i.e. the salon owner rents them their chair!

Is this way of employment in the micro business world?

 

[tree568]

With the criteria you've used, the redundant party falls way short of the person I've kept on. He even had a final warning letter from me back in Jan/Feb because of his poor work performance and he stupidly admitted he uses drugs. So if he was to smash up a customer's vehicle, where would I stand?

I can't get rid of him as I risk prosecution (and no evidence to support his drug taking), but I can't keep him either... :|

So if you have followed the correct procedures, regarding warning letters and the like, why can't you just sack him?