Nathan,
in my opinion it completely depends upon why you are paying for the link.
If you are 'buying a backlink' to help your SEO then I would say that no, it is not worth it. (If you want more reasoning then say and I will re-post with some of my thoughts).
If you are 'buying advert space' in an effort to bring you traffic and sales then it may be worth it through people following that link.
You need to look at how much the link/advert will cost and how likely you are to get people clicking through it and how many of those are likely to convert.
Then it becomes a straight return on investment question just like any other advertising spend question.
in my opinion it completely depends upon why you are paying for the link.
If you are 'buying a backlink' to help your SEO then I would say that no, it is not worth it. (If you want more reasoning then say and I will re-post with some of my thoughts).
If you are 'buying advert space' in an effort to bring you traffic and sales then it may be worth it through people following that link.
You need to look at how much the link/advert will cost and how likely you are to get people clicking through it and how many of those are likely to convert.
Then it becomes a straight return on investment question just like any other advertising spend question.
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oxbaby
- Original Poster
- #3
Hi Kevin,
Thanks for replying
It is for SEO to get our website to appear higher in the google results. The reason being this is the main way people here about us.
To give you a bit of background my wife runs a babysitting agency in oxfordshire and i help out with the more technical side but its been a very long time since i did any SEO (pre social media) and not sure what things are worth doing and which aren't.
Does that information help?
Thanks
Nathan
Thanks for replying
It is for SEO to get our website to appear higher in the google results. The reason being this is the main way people here about us. To give you a bit of background my wife runs a babysitting agency in oxfordshire and i help out with the more technical side but its been a very long time since i did any SEO (pre social media) and not sure what things are worth doing and which aren't.
Does that information help?
Thanks
Nathan
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Nathan,
I will stick with my original view in that case; I wouldn't pay for a link that was only for SEO.
If the link is on a site that sells up market baby/young children's toys clothes etc then having a small banner and link (an advert in other words) on it may be worth it; but not because of any SEO value - rather because the people visiting this site may well be your target audience and want your services.
It is perfectly all right for a site to sell links. So long as it is not to pass SEO value. (This from Google's guidelines). What this means is that if you are 'buying a link' that link should be 'nofollow'ed by the site selling it. This tells Google to ignore the link from an SEO point of view. (No, or little, use to anyone buying it for pure SEO purposes). If the site selling the link doesn't nofollow such links then it risks being penalised/removed from the search engine results (in which case, still no use to you for SEO).
You also find 'scam' sites; that know that Google only updates the 'visible' PR of pages two or three times a year. They then artificially build up the website/webpage - then wait for it to show a good PR, then sell links like mad until the next PR update - then 'disappear' when the PR is shown to be zero again (chances are it was zero long before 'we' would ever find out anyway).
I don't know what site you were thinking of buying from (nor need to) and I am not commenting on their 'honesty' - as I say it is perfectly OK to sell links so long as it is done CORRECTLY. But any site doing it correctly wouldn't be helping your SEO particularly anyway.
If you really want to spend on backlinks then look for websites that would have lots of visitors to it that are likely to be your target audience and approach them to be able to place an advert on their site - the ROI is likely to MUCH greater than any SEO value you would gain from a risky 'for SEO' only backlink.
I will stick with my original view in that case; I wouldn't pay for a link that was only for SEO.
If the link is on a site that sells up market baby/young children's toys clothes etc then having a small banner and link (an advert in other words) on it may be worth it; but not because of any SEO value - rather because the people visiting this site may well be your target audience and want your services.
It is perfectly all right for a site to sell links. So long as it is not to pass SEO value. (This from Google's guidelines). What this means is that if you are 'buying a link' that link should be 'nofollow'ed by the site selling it. This tells Google to ignore the link from an SEO point of view. (No, or little, use to anyone buying it for pure SEO purposes). If the site selling the link doesn't nofollow such links then it risks being penalised/removed from the search engine results (in which case, still no use to you for SEO).
You also find 'scam' sites; that know that Google only updates the 'visible' PR of pages two or three times a year. They then artificially build up the website/webpage - then wait for it to show a good PR, then sell links like mad until the next PR update - then 'disappear' when the PR is shown to be zero again (chances are it was zero long before 'we' would ever find out anyway).
I don't know what site you were thinking of buying from (nor need to) and I am not commenting on their 'honesty' - as I say it is perfectly OK to sell links so long as it is done CORRECTLY. But any site doing it correctly wouldn't be helping your SEO particularly anyway.
If you really want to spend on backlinks then look for websites that would have lots of visitors to it that are likely to be your target audience and approach them to be able to place an advert on their site - the ROI is likely to MUCH greater than any SEO value you would gain from a risky 'for SEO' only backlink.
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oxbaby
- Original Poster
- #7
Kevin,
Thats incredibly helpful thank you very much for your time in replying.
Im not sure if im allowed to mention specific companies on here which is why i haven't
I'm not sure wanting to spend time on backlinks is the right phrase What i want is for the site to be found by everyone searching for babysitters and childminders in the various towns and villages within oxfordshire.
Thanks again for the help
/nathan
Thats incredibly helpful thank you very much for your time in replying.
Im not sure if im allowed to mention specific companies on here which is why i haven't
I'm not sure wanting to spend time on backlinks is the right phrase
What i want is for the site to be found by everyone searching for babysitters and childminders in the various towns and villages within oxfordshire. Thanks again for the help
/nathan
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There are two schools of thought on this...... some say do, some say don't.
The basic fact is this..... there is no better way on earth to boost your position in the SERPs than obtaining (bought or otherwise) a series of decent quality backlinks from the right places. That doesnt mean there is nothing else to it, but its highly effective.
I reiterate the words 'decent' and 'right'.
The basic fact is this..... there is no better way on earth to boost your position in the SERPs than obtaining (bought or otherwise) a series of decent quality backlinks from the right places. That doesnt mean there is nothing else to it, but its highly effective.
I reiterate the words 'decent' and 'right'.
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Ah the Holy Grail for every business online or off. I want to be found by anyone wanting the services I offer in all the places I want to do business
As a small business, with, I would expect, a limited (cough) budget wanting to cover a relatively large area and large number of search terms (all the towns/villages in the area) I have the feeling that SEO will not be the way to go for you in the short/medium term.
Having said that, making sure that you have a good website doing all the right things will help (don't over optimise it though, keep it honest).
So, take a look at some of the advice floating around on here (there is a thread 101 SEO ideas or similar somewhere) or find a freelance on here to take a look at your site and advise on changes (I don't know any of them so can't recommend anyone) though I think you just need a 'review' rather than a 'service' - covering coding errors if any, canonical issues if any, content advice (page title(s), H1, H2, bold, emphasis), and some BASIC keyword research, some layout/conversion advice etc (A freelance on here may do that for free - or for a mention on your site maybe - or for a relatively small amount; 2 or 3 hours tops for a reasonable, simple, report on a couple of pages I would suggest - unless they find LOTS wrong!!).
Once that is done it would probably be better for you to look at PPC (Adwords) - though I have only looked at 'babysitters oxford' and 'childminders oxford', I see that they are low search volumes and only medium competition, so the Cost Per Click for shouldn't be too bad. If you don't know Adwords/PPC already though, I would also learn the basics before you get into it to make sure you don't waste any money. Once again I don't think the ROI, or your budget, is likely to warrant buying in the services of professionals to set it up for you (though only you will know for sure and it may be a freelancer on here will PM you with a 'good offer').
In terms of backlinks, yes you want them, yes they should be quality, and yes they should be honest, so if you can think of good ways of getting people to mention you then great.
For instance, is anyone blogging about the cost of child care in the area? If so, could you write an interesting piece about how your business is helping keep costs down? If so, write it and send it to them - everyone knows that you are doing it for 'business' reasons - but if you write it well, and in an interesting, non-preachy, over-sell, way then they may use it as a guest piece and link back to you.
Is there a problem in the area with 'poor quality childminders', anything in the press recently?
If so, then write something about how you vet the childminders you use/recommend, how you keep testimonials on them etc and contact the papers to say that you would like to submit your article; or that you have it on your BLOG if they would like to use it, and see if they would interview you or link to the article 'giving the other side of the story'.
Do any of the child minders working through you have websites that they would be happy to say that they work through you on, saying how good you are at getting them work etc; and link to you? Asking for a link is fine so long as it is honestly given and provided in a relevant way.
The bottom line is, with backlinks the easy option (buying, directories, etc) whist sometimes cheap, and, well, easy, are ALMOST always the wrong option (ie relevant directories could be ok; back to my 'is the link likely to bring you business' point in the ealier post).
I could go on, but that's enough from me for now I think (for a long time I think having seen how much I have written!!!).
As a small business, with, I would expect, a limited (cough) budget wanting to cover a relatively large area and large number of search terms (all the towns/villages in the area) I have the feeling that SEO will not be the way to go for you in the short/medium term.
Having said that, making sure that you have a good website doing all the right things will help (don't over optimise it though, keep it honest).
So, take a look at some of the advice floating around on here (there is a thread 101 SEO ideas or similar somewhere) or find a freelance on here to take a look at your site and advise on changes (I don't know any of them so can't recommend anyone) though I think you just need a 'review' rather than a 'service' - covering coding errors if any, canonical issues if any, content advice (page title(s), H1, H2, bold, emphasis), and some BASIC keyword research, some layout/conversion advice etc (A freelance on here may do that for free - or for a mention
on your site maybe - or for a relatively small amount; 2 or 3 hours tops for a reasonable, simple, report on a couple of pages I would suggest - unless they find LOTS wrong!!).Once that is done it would probably be better for you to look at PPC (Adwords) - though I have only looked at 'babysitters oxford' and 'childminders oxford', I see that they are low search volumes and only medium competition, so the Cost Per Click for shouldn't be too bad. If you don't know Adwords/PPC already though, I would also learn the basics before you get into it to make sure you don't waste any money. Once again I don't think the ROI, or your budget, is likely to warrant buying in the services of professionals to set it up for you (though only you will know for sure and it may be a freelancer on here will PM you with a 'good offer').
In terms of backlinks, yes you want them, yes they should be quality, and yes they should be honest, so if you can think of good ways of getting people to mention you then great.
For instance, is anyone blogging about the cost of child care in the area? If so, could you write an interesting piece about how your business is helping keep costs down? If so, write it and send it to them - everyone knows that you are doing it for 'business' reasons - but if you write it well, and in an interesting, non-preachy, over-sell, way then they may use it as a guest piece and link back to you.
Is there a problem in the area with 'poor quality childminders', anything in the press recently?
If so, then write something about how you vet the childminders you use/recommend, how you keep testimonials on them etc and contact the papers to say that you would like to submit your article; or that you have it on your BLOG if they would like to use it, and see if they would interview you or link to the article 'giving the other side of the story'.
Do any of the child minders working through you have websites that they would be happy to say that they work through you on, saying how good you are at getting them work etc; and link to you? Asking for a link is fine so long as it is honestly given and provided in a relevant way.
The bottom line is, with backlinks the easy option (buying, directories, etc) whist sometimes cheap, and, well, easy, are ALMOST always the wrong option (ie relevant directories could be ok; back to my 'is the link likely to bring you business' point in the ealier post).
I could go on, but that's enough from me for now I think (for a long time I think having seen how much I have written!!!).
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If that backlink is on a site/page that get thousands of visitors per day then yes it may well be worth it.
An example of this type of link is on most of google pages. They are adverts and can be very lucrative.
SEO isn't the only solution....
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D
drcaz
- Original Poster
- #11
Paid for advertising is an okay form of advertising - you can get free adwords vouchers from thewholeworldsmileswithyou.com. However paid for links (which are not adwords) can penalise the SEO of your website - Google looks for these paid for links - it's one of many techniques that some people use to try to fool Google that they're site is very popular. Google might take it as an indication your website contains spam.
I think SEO is much better than paid for links - you pay £1+ per click on an adword or £100 for 1000+ clicks using SEO.
I think SEO is much better than paid for links - you pay £1+ per click on an adword or £100 for 1000+ clicks using SEO.
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Rubbish. Look to the right of this post and you will see a whole bunch of paid for links.
Just about all entertainment site have banners and skyscrapers. They seem to do OK. I'll happy pay for a link if it brings in business.
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merlot105
- Original Poster
- #16
Paid backlinks is a big quandary in the world of SEO. On one hand, Google recommends getting links in the Yahoo! Directory (the fee is a hefty $399 last I checked) and Business.com and so forth. On the other hand, Google is known to penalize websites with known paid link campaigns. Just take a look at the recent JCPenney Google penalty.
Nonetheless, Google is still generally OK with paid links if and only if the linking site is considered to be high-quality (ie. don't pay for a link on win-big-at-las-vegas-casinos.com") and that the website in question is generally the same niche as the products you are selling.
If you are asking this question from a perspective of PPC vs paid links - I would say concentrate on PPC as you would be getting a much larger share of extremely targeted traffic.
Nonetheless, Google is still generally OK with paid links if and only if the linking site is considered to be high-quality (ie. don't pay for a link on win-big-at-las-vegas-casinos.com") and that the website in question is generally the same niche as the products you are selling.
If you are asking this question from a perspective of PPC vs paid links - I would say concentrate on PPC as you would be getting a much larger share of extremely targeted traffic.
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Where does Google recomend this?
There is no SEO quandary. If you buy links and get caught then expect to get those links devalued. Penalties may or may not apply. There is a big difference between paying someone £10 to submit your site to 1000 spammy directories and responding to a site that charges £10 for a link on their homepage. One is a waste of money and the other may flag up an alarm at the Googleplex.
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Back links are no longer very relevant to Google when crawling your website.
Paying for a site to give you loads of backlinks just for SEO is a waste of money. However, if those backlinks show as real advert-links to your site and people are actually clicking through them then they are effective.
Many of the 'services' that offer thousands of backlinks for £££ simply try to build the number of links to your site, no matter if they are actively used or not. If they tell you that Google will increase your page-ranking with more backlinks, its a lie. Google released a statement recently to confirm.
Same goes for keywords, meta tags etc...
SEO is not what SEO used to be anymore!
Paying for a site to give you loads of backlinks just for SEO is a waste of money. However, if those backlinks show as real advert-links to your site and people are actually clicking through them then they are effective.
Many of the 'services' that offer thousands of backlinks for £££ simply try to build the number of links to your site, no matter if they are actively used or not. If they tell you that Google will increase your page-ranking with more backlinks, its a lie. Google released a statement recently to confirm.
Same goes for keywords, meta tags etc...
SEO is not what SEO used to be anymore!
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Well I pretty much disagree with most of that. So google are currently de-indexing all the big splog networks, spending millions on their algorithm to detect them, because links don't matter?
I agree also that linking for traffic is perfect.
I agree that the '10,000,000,000 links for $1 are junk, but for you to say links don't help ranking is astounding, especially given your signature.
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SMaybe I misread what you are saying, or you misread what Google said. Are you saying that backlinks are not part of the Google ranking algorithm? because that was how your post reads to me.
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No, Im saying that they are not anywhere near as important to the latest adjustments on googles algorithms for site indexing as they used to be. This along with keywords also.
backlinks and keywords have become the 2 main ways that people have been 'cheating' the crawlers and so have been sidelined by google recently.
There is a much bigger shift towards site activity above other things.
Before this, the 'caffeine' algorithm was focused on site content, but this led to a huge increase in crappy sites with shallow content containing loads of backlinks... No the shift is towards site activity.
Things like facebook 'like' buttons, post comments, and so on really help page ranking at the moment as these show actual users on the site interacting. Page views themselves are less important than activity to the latest algorithm.
In fact, paying for backlinks is much more risky as google are penalising many backlink providers in a huge crackdown on spam content.
Any money spent on paying for backlinks would most likely be far better spent on good content that users can interact with, then make sure all those interactive sections of the site are given more weight on the site than non interactive pages!
backlinks and keywords have become the 2 main ways that people have been 'cheating' the crawlers and so have been sidelined by google recently.
There is a much bigger shift towards site activity above other things.
Before this, the 'caffeine' algorithm was focused on site content, but this led to a huge increase in crappy sites with shallow content containing loads of backlinks... No the shift is towards site activity.
Things like facebook 'like' buttons, post comments, and so on really help page ranking at the moment as these show actual users on the site interacting. Page views themselves are less important than activity to the latest algorithm.
In fact, paying for backlinks is much more risky as google are penalising many backlink providers in a huge crackdown on spam content.
Any money spent on paying for backlinks would most likely be far better spent on good content that users can interact with, then make sure all those interactive sections of the site are given more weight on the site than non interactive pages!
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Thanks for the explanation. Tsurely the correct way is add content and promote it? I agree that imbalanced link building can and will show a footprint that can be traced. Google have also stated that social signals are used.
could you link to the post you cited where Google have said that adding social buttons improves ranking, as that would be an interesting read.
could you link to the post you cited where Google have said that adding social buttons improves ranking, as that would be an interesting read.
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Im just putting together another post about the whole thing as its a big discussion that website builders and SEO pro's would probably benefit from.
Lots of changes made very recently that really do change the way things are done and indicate the way things are going... Google is on a mission right now and are making some big changes!
Lots of changes made very recently that really do change the way things are done and indicate the way things are going... Google is on a mission right now and are making some big changes!
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Also I suggest you have a look around as we are currently discussing pretty much all of the recent google statements about semantic search, and the proposed changes to the algorithm that matt Cutts and Amit have discussed over the last week or so. It would be better to join in wiht those posts rather than start a new thread that could be locked
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I uploaded a new page to a site of mine. Google picked it up an indexed but ranking wasn't good. I got a link from the homkepage of a games site in the US and I'm now ranked #1.
They do matter. Google tells you they matter. But they also tell you that they calculate the value of each link. It's called PageRank.
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I never said they were not at all relevant, I said not 'very' or not 'as' relevant as people still think they are. Google have said this themselves!
whats the site you say is ranked number one and under what search terms? These are also very key to getting high rankings.
Something else that is also very key is that search results via google are now different for each person depending on a number of things. Location, browsing habbits, even down to personal email content if you use gmail... all part of the latest 'privacy policy' changes google have made.
Your experience of search results will be different to mine as we use the internet differently. This will become more and more 'personalised' as Google continue to refine their latest approaches to how search engines work.
An experiment I did the other day, I searched a general term for 'local landscape gardening', got the results up.
then I searched for a local landscape gardener I know and got the results up.
then I went back to search general term for 'local landscape gardening' same as before. Only this time, the previous site I had looked at was much much higher in page rankings.
Google was caching my results and personalising them to what they think I want to see. It wasnt SEO giving the results, it was the algorithm.
Not saying this is whats going on for your site, just something else that complicates the equation!
Once again, the original post I think, was referring to buying back links from a service that sells them, not as a well chosen advert.
Also, again, my 'statements' about back links, have only been referring to what Google is saying themselves in latest developments!
whats the site you say is ranked number one and under what search terms? These are also very key to getting high rankings.
Something else that is also very key is that search results via google are now different for each person depending on a number of things. Location, browsing habbits, even down to personal email content if you use gmail... all part of the latest 'privacy policy' changes google have made.
Your experience of search results will be different to mine as we use the internet differently. This will become more and more 'personalised' as Google continue to refine their latest approaches to how search engines work.
An experiment I did the other day, I searched a general term for 'local landscape gardening', got the results up.
then I searched for a local landscape gardener I know and got the results up.
then I went back to search general term for 'local landscape gardening' same as before. Only this time, the previous site I had looked at was much much higher in page rankings.
Google was caching my results and personalising them to what they think I want to see. It wasnt SEO giving the results, it was the algorithm.
Not saying this is whats going on for your site, just something else that complicates the equation!
Once again, the original post I think, was referring to buying back links from a service that sells them, not as a well chosen advert.
Also, again, my 'statements' about back links, have only been referring to what Google is saying themselves in latest developments!
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I have asked but can you please link to where google have been saying these things you are stating as fact, as I siad previously it would be good to read the source rather than an interpretation
many of us are well aware of personalised search etc, it has been discussed on here many times, and in fact i predicted it during an interview ON the BBC 3 years ago.
The problem is that when you join a forum and post unfortunately people will ask for a citation or two. here is one about semantic search and how Google are planning some changes coming soon. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304459804577281842851136290.html
many of us are well aware of personalised search etc, it has been discussed on here many times, and in fact i predicted it during an interview ON the BBC 3 years ago.
The problem is that when you join a forum and post unfortunately people will ask for a citation or two. here is one about semantic search and how Google are planning some changes coming soon. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304459804577281842851136290.html
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Well at least that part of the industry that churned out 1,000's of meaningless links, spamming my blog comments etc.
"Link evaluation. We often use characteristics of links to help us figure out the topic of a linked page. We have changed the way in which we evaluate links; in particular, we are turning off a method of link analysis that we used for several years. We often rearchitect or turn off parts of our scoring in order to keep our system maintainable, clean and understandable."
It is a case of keeping up with what is relevant to Google.
http://insidesearch.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/search-quality-highlights-40-changes.html
"Link evaluation. We often use characteristics of links to help us figure out the topic of a linked page. We have changed the way in which we evaluate links; in particular, we are turning off a method of link analysis that we used for several years. We often rearchitect or turn off parts of our scoring in order to keep our system maintainable, clean and understandable."
It is a case of keeping up with what is relevant to Google.
http://insidesearch.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/search-quality-highlights-40-changes.html
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Some of us knew it was coming and prepared :0
the thread below is 18 months old.
http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=166336
Ok semantic link benefit.
In the old days you would have a keyword, say 'wedding dresses' (for example) you would slap it in the title, in the H1 in alt images (where appropriate) in links and also get lots of links for that phrase 'wedding dresses', That changed a while back though have a look at this search for 'bridal dresses' http://www.google.co.uk/search?sour...&rlz=1T4GPTB_en-GBGB290GB290&q=bridal+dresses do you see how google has highlighted 'weding dresses'?
Now have a look at THIS SERP http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=e...&q=bridal+gowns&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai= note how the search is bridal gowns, but google is hoghlighting wedding dresses?
This is because google understand that a bridal gow ins the same as a wedding dress! So by building links for 'bridal gowns' you are helping your site rank for wedding dresses
Simple isn't it!
Well it IS simple when it is put on a plate like this.
Semantics is all about natural language and the relationships of words
bridal gown
bridal dress
wedding gown
wedding dress.
ALL the same thing said differently, and once you start thinking like a search engine, you will find it easier to gain success on there.
Now it is REALLY hard trying to explain to a client that building links for '4 colour process stationery' will help him rank for the term, business cards , leaflets etc, but it WILL !
People are obcessed with single keyword link building, and there is nothing wrong with that PROVIDED there is wide variation in the type of link as well as the actual anchor text used. Semantics has been around a long time. http://www.highrankings.com/forum/index.php/topic/3116-semantics/ we were discussing this back in 2004 (around the time when Google bought applied Semantics) and LOOK there is Aaron Wall back in the day
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bdw
- Original Poster
- #38
I know a little about SEO but I am not an authority or an expert. What I can tell you is that I get paid £600 per annum for a link from the homepage of a site that I own (not the one in my sig).
The company that pays me is a major UK digital marketing agency. The ad I display is for a household name UK company.
The way I see it is that there is a lot of expertise in this (award winning) agency. They think that paying me £600 per annum is a good deal and I am smart enough to recognise that they probably know more about this than I do. When they stop paying me I may have another look at this.
.
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