Anyone watch the BBC's Panarama on the Minimum Wage?

[TotallySport]

Hi

As title really, did put some good point across IMO for both sides but it should have been longer to get more involved.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b015r35d/Panorama_All_Work_and_Low_Pay/

I know the Minimum wages has been discussed a few times so thought it was worth a mention.

 

[silvermusic]

Yes I saw it and likewise thought the points put across by both sides were good. Minimum wage is not quite the safety net most people think it is.

 

[Truemanbrown]

The one thing about the ]national minimum wage is if you make a complaint to HMRC about it, they will come down on the employer like a ton of bricks. More than any other matter!!!

 

[Ali-v-8]

I think minimum wage is what has ruined the economy - If your running cost are not covered by the profit you only have a few options.

Cut wages
Cut labour
Export work

I think that there should be a base rate and allowance to subsidise the wage in the manufacturing sector.

 

[silvermusic]

I think minimum wage is what has ruined the economy - If your running cost are not covered by the profit you only have a few options.

Cut wages
Cut labour
Export work

I think that there should be a base rate and allowance to subsidise the wage in the manufacturing sector.

The problem i have with those saying do away with a minimum wage because the business can't afford it is two fold. Firstly, on a purely humanitarian level is it acceptable in this day and age? What should be the lowest someone should expect to be paid an hour, £6, £5, £4, £3... lower? Secondly, if their business can only afford to pay £x per hour and below the minimum wage I'd question whether it's a viable business.

While myself and I'm sure others have taken less out of their business than minimum wage at times, that's through our own choice, we have bigger long term plans that will pay off if things go to plan. Currently I'm not taking out more than minimum wage out of my business, it can't afford it, but within a year I expect to be taking £20+k a year out of it, in two years time double that. But it's my dream, plan and ambition, i wouldn't expect anyone other than a wife or partner to work for nothing or little in the early years or when times are tough.

 

I think minimum wage is what has ruined the economy - .

Nope its successive governments allowing the transference of manufacturing to countries using the cheapest labour allied to the quick buck mentality of big business like the retail giants being allowed to masacre UK manufacturing.

If you don't pay the minimum wage then:

A) you are a greedy barsteward.

B) you do not have a viable business and should not expect other people to support you.

Earl

 

[Ali-v-8]

Sorry if i come across wrong, but i think that there should be a focus on primary industry such as raw material and manufacturing.
Keep minimum wage - but then at least give the companies tax breaks and incentives to keep the work here.

Quality of work environment means nothing when it comes to price.
And health and safety has really killed off things too (bring on the pain)

 

[neilwallace]

For me, one of the biggest problems with the minimum wage is that many semi-skilled workers are only getting paid slightly more than the minimum wage. So, where is the incentive for employees to better themselves when they might only receive a pittance more than a shelf stacker at Tescos? Not that there's anything wrong with stacking shelves...

Before I started my own business, I worked in a computer/electronics workshop repairing laptop computers for little more than 8 quid an hour. Some of the other blokes were being paid quite a bit less than that! Now, considering that most of us had electronics qualifications and many years experience, and were doing what can only be described as skilled or at least semi-skilled jobs, how can it be right that a completely un-skilled worker with zero experience can be paid not that much less?

 

[silvermusic]

Sorry if i come across wrong, but i think that there should be a focus on primary industry such as raw material and manufacturing.
Keep minimum wage - but then at least give the companies tax breaks and incentives to keep the work here.

The British are there own worst enemy, esspecially businesses, I see it on here week after week, where's the first place they look to buying and sourcing product from the UK? no China. When I see so many basic things in shops made in China, I can't get my head around why we can't make them in this country, why wouldn't people pay a little more for a UK made item. I don't have the answer but it drives me up the wall sometimes.

 

The British are there own worst enemy, esspecially businesses, I see it on here week after week, where's the first place they look to buying and sourcing product from the UK? no China. When I see so many basic things in shops made in China, I can't get my head around why we can't make them in this country, why wouldn't people pay a little more for a UK made item. I don't have the answer but it drives me up the wall sometimes.

Its not the British prolitariat that are there worst enemy.

Its companies like M&S and many other high st brands who buy at incredibly low prices ,but still charge the public top dollar.

M&S buy raincoats at £8 from China and sell them for £130 good business for them but not Britain.

Earl

 

[TotallySport]

I take it only 1 person who has posted watched it, the thing that interested me most was regarding free working, things like self employed sales reps on commision only and interns and other free labour, and the number of people who could take their employers to an industrail tribual for pay.

The NMW works both wages I don't know anyone who could live on £6 per hour and even then they need tax credits to be able to survive, but some jobs might not warrent £6 for the job, its not an easy one in this day and age, but this thread wasn't about a which is wright or wrong but what employees might be entitled to based on what and how they work, it was very interesting for all the people asking for commission only sales reps.

 

[BizGurl]

Nope its successive governments allowing the transference of manufacturing to countries using the cheapest labour allied to the quick buck mentality of big business like the retail giants being allowed to masacre UK manufacturing.

If you don't pay the minimum wage then:

A) you are a greedy barsteward.

B) you do not have a viable business and should not expect other people to support you.

Earl

**Gives round of applause.

 

[Mpg]

People searching for jobs have always said " I cant get a job as I have NO experience, But I can't get experience without getting a job"

Businesses offering interns/work experience are vital to help gain experience Yes some will exploit it for free labour.

I got annoyed at the person that was happy about accepting an unpaid intern-ship until they found out that someone doing the same job was being paid. They accepted the terms before they started. Be thankful for the damn opportunity.

 

[TotallySport]

People searching for jobs have always said " I cant get a job as I have NO experience, But I can't get experience without getting a job"

Businesses offering interns/work experience are vital to help gain experience Yes some will exploit it for free labour.

I got annoyed at the person that was happy about accepting an unpaid intern-ship until they found out that someone doing the same job was being paid. They accepted the terms before they started. Be thankful for the damn opportunity.

From what I understand an internship is there to give experience normally in a specifics specialist roles, but people taking on interns for free labour is bang out of order.

Also interns according to the program arn't a hard and fast job role in the same way that a paid job is, and according to the program they can be taken to an industial tribunal is the company takes the piss.

 

The NMW works both wages I don't know anyone who could live on £6 per hour and even then they need tax credits to be able to survive, but some jobs might not warrent £6

In that case there is not a viable business .

I can't think of a job that does not warrant 6 quid an hour.:|

But I can think of many multi millionaires who would rather not pay it.

There are plenty of jobs for British workers.

Unfortunately most of them are in China and the far east.

Earl

 

[silvermusic]

In that case there is not a viable business .

I can't think of a job that does not warrant 6 quid an hour.:|

Thank heavens I'm not alone in my thoughts.

 

[TotallySport]

In that case there is not a viable business .

I can't think of a job that does not warrant 6 quid an hour.:|

But I can think of many multi millionaires who would rather not pay it.

There are plenty of jobs for British workers.

Unfortunately most of them are in China and the far east.

Earl

I do agree in the main, but lifes not that simple

 

I do agree in the main, but lifes not that simple

Life may not be simple but capitalism sure as hell is.

Buy low sell high and pay workers as little as you can get away with.

Earl

 

[TotallySport]

Life may not be simple but capitalism sure as hell is.

Buy low sell high and pay workers as little as you can get away with.

Earl

my point of posting about the program was it demonstrates that companies trying to get away paying less than the minimum wage or nothing, is its not that simple either, better for the employee

 

[MH1]

Not all employers go for the NMW idea, the tube drivers have just been given a fair deal, £52k PA they reckon with inflation plus increases for the next few years, some don't even drive the trains anymore, simply sit in the cab and press a button to open and close the doors.

Or looked at another way, the Union used the upcoming Olympics to get a great deal.

 

[Deleted member 122319]

As I see it, if you employ someone on the minimum wage, then they are almost certainly having their income/circumstances topped up by the state. By extension the business of their employer is being similarly topped up out of the taxes we all pay. If the business can't afford to pay this (barely subsistence level) to a worker then it is not viable. If the business owner is taking a huge chunk out then they are on very dodgy ground morally.

I should point out that I am a "one man band" freelancer, so I haven't been through the experience of employing full timer, permanent staff - my sector is a high-skill, high-pay industry, so I would need to generate significant turnover to pay someone the going rate - if someone has the brains to design leading edge electronics/software for the world's biggest companies, they know when they're being ripped off! The only exception is I sometimes use (graduate) students for one-off jobs, often related to their research interests. In that case, I am totally transparent with them and pass on what I charge them out for (minus PAYE/NI, obviously).

 

[andygambles]

If a business is only viable if it can pay minimum wage then it has to charge more. As a result prices go up and those on minimum wage can not afford to live.

Near 20 years ago I worked at Tesco for £5 per hour. This was before the minimum wage and was by no means a low wage for the job IMHO.

Competition for employees pushes wages up. Supermarkets in my opinion are amongst some of the best paid "unskilled" jobs. With share options and a very good pension.

 

[british steve]

[FONT=&quot]I personally think that the minimum wage should be pushed up to at least £8.50 per hour. How can anyone expect people to struggle/survive on the current minimum wage. If you can't afford to pay people a proper living wage in the first place you probably should not be taking on people or even be in business. I wouldn't pay a floor sweeper less than £8.50 an hour. I think it's a bloody insult and taking the p*** trying to get rich off the back of paying other people peanuts, and no I am not a socialist! [/FONT]

 

[asj100]

The British are there own worst enemy, esspecially businesses, I see it on here week after week, where's the first place they look to buying and sourcing product from the UK? no China. When I see so many basic things in shops made in China, I can't get my head around why we can't make them in this country, why wouldn't people pay a little more for a UK made item. I don't have the answer but it drives me up the wall sometimes.

We have just launched a new product, and spent over 3 months contacting UK companies, we spoke to and sent our production requirements and specifications to 37 companies only 3 replied, the production pricing we were quoted were on average 4 times that quoted by a company in Bahrain and India and China were even less.

If we manufacture in Bahrain, our RRP would be around £950 per unit, one quote we received from a UK company based in Bristrol was for a manufactured price of £1800+ per unit.... so where do we as a company have to go to make our business viable??
With admin staff on £8.75ph x 2
Warehouse staff on £9.50ph x 4
Forklift driver on £10.70ph x 1
Warehouse manager on £28k
Salemen on £9.00 plus commission x 2
Build just these staffing costs in to the manufacturing costs plus as the owner I would like to be paid too, how would we sell our products in the UK market if we paid the UK production costs?

 

[gordano]

But how effective is the minumum wage when there are such wide variations in cost of living across the UK?

 

[gordano]

We have just launched a new product, and spent over 3 months contacting UK companies, we spoke to and sent our production requirements and specifications to 37 companies only 3 replied, the production pricing we were quoted were on average 4 times that quoted by a company in Bahrain and India and China were even less.

If we manufacture in Bahrain, our RRP would be around £950 per unit, one quote we received from a UK company based in Bristrol was for a manufactured price of £1800+ per unit.... so where do we as a company have to go to make our business viable??
With admin staff on £8.75ph x 2
Warehouse staff on £9.50ph x 4
Forklift driver on £10.70ph x 1
Warehouse manager on £28k
Salemen on £9.00 plus commission x 2
Build just these staffing costs in to the manufacturing costs plus as the owner I would like to be paid too, how would we sell our products in the UK market if we paid the UK production costs?

I agree 100%, in a free market we cannot compete on manufacturing fro (some) products.

With time the labour costs in countries such as China will increase to a level where differentials to UK reduce ... but this is many years from now.

But there are still manufacturing opportunities for the UK, we just need some strategic political leadership to support businesses and exploit these opportunities.

 

[warnie]

[FONT=&quot]I personally think that the minimum wage should be pushed up to at least £8.50 per hour. How can anyone expect people to struggle/survive on the current minimum wage. If you can’t afford to pay people a proper living wage in the first place you probably should not be taking on people or even be in business. I wouldn’t pay a floor sweeper less than £8.50 an hour. I think it’s a bloody insult and taking the p*** trying to get rich off the back of paying other people peanuts, and no I am not a socialist! [/FONT]

Bloody ell Steve! are you serious?

Small business owners getting rich from paying staff peanuts?? yeah right

Floor Sweeper £8.50 per hour:| Has it not occured to you that if you pay the floor sweeper £8.50 per hour then the warehouse staff for instance would want £10-12 per hour, the forklift truckdriver on £10 would then want £15 per hour, the manager would then want upwards of £35k!

To employe your floor sweeper a small shop for instance would be shelling out around £21k a year if you include employers NI

It's a beautiful ideal world you live in and I for one want to be part of it, so any chance of a job??

 

Bloody ell Steve! are you serious?

Small business owners getting rich from paying staff peanuts?? yeah right

Floor Sweeper £8.50 per hour:| Has it not occured to you that if you pay the floor sweeper £8.50 per hour then the warehouse staff for instance would want £10-12 per hour, the forklift truckdriver on £10 would then want £15 per hour, the manager would then want upwards of £35k!

To employe your floor sweeper a small shop for instance would be shelling out around £21k a year if you include employers NI

It's a beautiful ideal world you live in and I for one want to be part of it, so any chance of a job??

You need to go into a business that makes more profit.

I would suggest the law or flogging Ferrari's.

Earl

 

[british steve]

Bloody ell Steve! are you serious?

Small business owners getting rich from paying staff peanuts?? yeah right

Floor Sweeper £8.50 per hour:| Has it not occured to you that if you pay the floor sweeper £8.50 per hour then the warehouse staff for instance would want £10-12 per hour, the forklift truckdriver on £10 would then want £15 per hour, the manager would then want upwards of £35k!

To employe your floor sweeper a small shop for instance would be shelling out around £21k a year if you include employers NI

It's a beautiful ideal world you live in and I for one want to be part of it, so any chance of a job??

I am deadly serious. Why the hell should people work for such a pitiful basic wage that doesn’t even cover their basic cost of living?

 

[andygambles]

I am deadly serious. Why the hell should people work for such a pitiful basic wage that doesn’t even cover their basic cost of living?

Living off the min wage is tough but possible.

Is it better to employ 2 full time (40hr) people at £6ph or 3 people on £4ph?

 

[british steve]

Living off the min wage is tough but possible.

Is it better to employ 2 full time (40hr) people at £6ph or 3 people on £4ph?

I guess that depends on whether you’re the employer or employee!

 

[andygambles]

I guess that depends on whether you’re the employer or employee!

I suppose it does because the employer may have to make one redundant to pay the min wage.

 

[PeterG]

Its not the British prolitariat that are there worst enemy.

Its companies like M&S and many other high st brands who buy at incredibly low prices ,but still charge the public top dollar.

M&S buy raincoats at £8 from China and sell them for £130 good business for them but not Britain.

Earl

Very true!

 

[TODonnell]

I think minimum wage is what has ruined the economy - If your running cost are not covered by the profit you only have a few options.

Cut wages
Cut labour
Export work

I think that there should be a base rate and allowance to subsidise the wage in the manufacturing sector.

I am not sure if the economy was ruined by the introduction of the minimum wages.

Britain is a wealthy nation whose GDP is over 2 Trillion dollars. I am sure its economy can afford to pay people above the minimum wages. (I am looking at it from the macro scale).

What ruined the economy was simply the inevitable, i.e. the rise of nations who have far more man power than Britain ever had, i.e. India, China, Brazil, who've entered the service industry.

The challenge for us now is to figure out which industry Britain as a nation should focus on!

What can Britain offer to the world that no other country can offer?

 

I am not sure if the economy was ruined by the introduction of the minimum wages.

Britain is a wealthy nation whose GDP is over 2 Trillion dollars. I am sure its economy can afford to pay people above the minimum wages. (I am looking at it from the macro scale).

What ruined the economy was simply the inevitable, i.e. the rise of nations who have far more man power than Britain ever had, i.e. India, China, Brazil, who've entered the service industry.

The challenge for us now is to figure out which industry Britain as a nation should focus on!

What can Britain offer to the world that no other country can offer?

Or better still how about doing things for ourselves.:|

Earl

 

[Mpg]

Living off the min wage is tough but possible.

No its not.

Surviving is but I wouldn't say thats Living.

 

[Consistency]

An employee should be paid what their job is worth. It has certainly cost people jobs or stunned growth.

For example comission jobs, when I was younger I sold newspapers. When I was selling them I was on comission. I tided me over between jobs. There was no way I was selling enough papers to cover the cost of minimum wage and all the extras that go with it.

Therefore they would be taking a loss on using me as I was not a profit to them.

Similarly with those "chuggers". If they are paid by the hour and they are out for three days with holiday pay and taxes to pay and that "chugger" does not mamage to get a direct debit out of anyone then that is a massive loss to the business. Of course there are all their rights that come with that such as notice pay and having to prove that they are not up to the job but then it may not be their fault so we get redundancy but then they can't employ anyone else to do that job......

It really is not just minimum wage that is a mess, the whole thing of employment law is.

 

[Consistency]

And there is an awful lot of

"ooooh if they can't afford to pay minimum wage they shouldn't be running a business". I really do not think that is true. Some jobs are just low paid because that is all customers will pay. Not all employers are rolling in it and give nothing.
Often jobs are subsidised by their employers but the employees rarely know this.

If an employee wants to work for that wage they should be allowed to. If they do not want to they should walk away. It is a two way thing. It is not slave labour as they do not have to do it.

 

[british steve]

The minimum wage was introduced to stop the miserable and unscrupulous employers taking advantage of people who in most cases and no fault of their own found themselves having to apply for these poorly paid jobs in the first place.

The only people that are against the minimum wage are the tight fisted employers who would probably pay employees as little as they could get away with. These are the employees are who need protecting by the minimum wage.

If your business can't sustain employing an employee on a liveable wage then you should not be employing people - here in the UK we made slavery illegal in 1807

 

[BustersDogs]

All my assistants were on above min wage, until the two permanent 16 hr per week people. I have told them I am aiming for the 'living wage' but that please bear with me it will take some time to get there. Now they are trained I am hoping to register with HMRC as an employer so I can pay them more money, currently they are below the threshold for tax & nics. Both of them have said they are very happy with what they've got as for every extra pound I pay them they lose a pound of housing benefit etc.

So *they* have both said they are happy to support me growing, but I still feel wrong, so what I've tried to organise is if they get the work done in less then 16 hours they get the time off, which usually puts them on at least £7 per hour they work. But I'm still trying to get the business to grow to support them another pound an hour. To put it in perspective, I think I'm still on about £1.50 an hour, much of which is outside the 9-5 mon-fri.