Are you a Christian?

[MASSEY]

The apostle John under inspiration wrote: “If we make the statement: ‘We have no sin,’ we are misleading ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1*John 1:8)

Sin is a missing of the mark of perfection.

Our first parents started all of us on the road of sin and death by their disobedience to God’s righteous and perfect laws.

The fact that no man continues to live forever is evidence that all men are born in sin.

For, as the apostle Paul says, “the wages sin pays is death.”—Rom. 6:23.

That is why we needed the ransom sacrifice if Jesus.

(John 3:16) 16*“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

It makes perfect sense to me, Massey

It should not make sense to you DCE. I presume your talking about adam and eve. I am a sinner because a snake said "eat these apples they are nice" or something along those lines, im not a fan of story tales so forgive my ignorance.

The fact that no man continues to live forever is evidence that all men are born in sin.

Oh thats the reason why humans don't live forever, silly me. Should of known .

Working on what you are suggesting being true. I would still not be interested in being religious. "God" it's self could appear in front of me and tell me that is true and i would tell it to **** off. Because as far as im concerned im not interested in the sins of people i have never met...

 

[stugster]

DCE, do they let you out and about on your own without a supervisor?

 

[stockdam]

DCE, do they let you out and about on your own without a supervisor?

That's just pure condescending. Why stop there....why not just throw insults at the guy? You may not agree with what he says but there is no need for that type of comment.

 

[stugster]

That's just pure condescending. Why stop there....why not just throw insults at the guy? You may not agree with what he says but there is no need for that type of comment.

There was no condescension or malice intended. It was a serious question. I'm trying to work out if he has something wrong?

 

[stugster]

 

[Top Hat]

Surely its a joke, is it?

 

[Lord of the Teapot]

Nor sure if it's a joke or not? Water is only 'borrowed' Err... Re-cycled? You know what I mean!

 

[stugster]

No, there was a post somewhere and someone used that as a "valid" reason.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EZtXNIT5QQ

Wow. European bees don't do this. Wonder why?

 

[cjd]

Wow. European bees don't do this. Wonder why?

Obviously because God decided they didn't need to know that trick.

(or we don't have honey seeking hornets?)

Or because it's such a complicated set of manoeuvres that it's pretty unlikely to evolve more than once.

 

[stugster]

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/332/6029/583

 

[bdw]

I am not sure what these examples are supposed to illustrate?

OK with posting links but it would be nice to have some explanatory text to illustrate what point is being made, no? :|

.

 

[Consistency]

I am not sure what these examples are supposed to illustrate?

OK with posting links but it would be nice to have some explanatory text to illustrate what point is being made, no? :|

.

I would not worry BDW, it is just a few faithless folk in their ani-Christ campaign trying to "prove" he does not exist. God does not believe in Atheists.

 

[DCE]

I would not worry BDW, it is just a few faithless folk in their ani-Christ campaign trying to "prove" he does not exist. God does not believe in Atheists.

Although they proclaimed the peaceful Kingdom message, the early Christians were persecuted, even as Jesus had been. (John 15:20; 17:14)

Historian John L. von Mosheim called first-century Christians “a set of men of the most harmless inoffensive character, who never harboured in their minds a wish or thought inimical to the welfare of the state.

Dr. Mosheim stated that what “irritated the Romans against the Christians, was the simplicity of their worship, which resembled in nothing the sacred rites of any other people.”

He added: “They had no sacrifices, temples, images, oracles, or sacerdotal orders; and this was sufficient to bring upon them the reproaches of an ignorant multitude, who imagined that there could be no religion without these.

Thus they were looked upon as a sort of atheists; and, by the Roman laws, those who were chargeable with atheism were declared the pests of human society.”

Funny old world, Christians viewed as atheists by the Romans.

 

[bdw]

God does not believe in Atheists.

And turkeys don't believe in xmas ...

... the difference being that turkeys are real. I believe in turkeys.

 

[Parthelan]

I believe in turkeys.

But they don't believe in you

 

[Subbynet]

I would not worry BDW, it is just a few faithless folk in their ani-Christ campaign trying to "prove" he does not exist. God does not believe in Atheists.

Atheists are not faithless... I have faith jumping out of a plane with a parachute. I have faith that the brakes will work in my car. I have faith... Plenty of it, and I use it every day.

But it is not "just faith" to believe in God, when there is no evidence to believe it... I can press the brakes, I can pull the cord for a parachute... My reasons for having faith can be tested, validated and repeated.

How do I test YOUR faith? I can't... How do YOU test your faith - You don't even try. Instead we have lies being told, like the Bible is some perfect document from history, when it reality its a mess, and contradicts itself so many times. Even the individual stories can give different details to the same events, and thats with the human hand guiding it by "translation" and "interpretation".

Then the excuses made on behalf of God are not even worthy of being called Christian, they're outright lies intended to keep you from actually answering the point.

Original Sin is the most abhorrent thing I've ever had to hear. To state a new born is a sinner in the eyes of some God, and as such must live by a set of rules spoken by man is idiotic in the extreme.

This is a different type of faith, blind faith, which doesn't make any sense at all. It is not down to us to prove God doesn't exist (that's impossible - so stop hiding behind this point), its up to you and all you believers to prove he does.

 

[DCE]

Atheists are not faithless... I have faith jumping out of a plane with a parachute. I have faith that the brakes will work in my car. I have faith... Plenty of it, and I use it every day.

But it is not "just faith" to believe in God, when there is no evidence to believe it... I can press the brakes, I can pull the cord for a parachute... My reasons for having faith can be tested, validated and repeated.

How do I test YOUR faith? I can't... How do YOU test your faith - You don't even try. Instead we have lies being told, like the Bible is some perfect document from history, when it reality its a mess, and contradicts itself so many times. Even the individual stories can give different details to the same events, and thats with the human hand guiding it by "translation" and "interpretation".

Then the excuses made on behalf of God are not even worthy of being called Christian, they're outright lies intended to keep you from actually answering the point.

Original Sin is the most abhorrent thing I've ever had to hear. To state a new born is a sinner in the eyes of some God, and as such must live by a set of rules spoken by man is idiotic in the extreme.

This is a different type of faith, blind faith, which doesn't make any sense at all. It is not down to us to prove God doesn't exist (that's impossible - so stop hiding behind this point), its up to you and all you believers to prove he does.

So, in your evolutionary world, man is the creator of his own destiny.

He can genetically engineer himself and his world, transplant body parts, clone animals and humans, fabricate artificial parts of all sorts, imbed subcutaneous microchips, and generally just transform his body and soul into a new Creature.

In him – Man – all things are made new.

Man has become his own god – creating and recreating himself unto immortality.

Only in your dreams, Subbynet

 

[Subbynet]

So, in your evolutionary world, man is the creator of his own destiny.

I didn't say that did I DCE? :| In fact, an Evolutionary world explicitly implies that one cannot control their surroundings in such a manner, so its a stupid point to make.

Man can only influence his destiny, for all we know, a rock is hurtling its way towards Earth right now ready to kill us all, or, maybe someone else wants to spoil your plans, who knows...

 

[cjd]

The Catholics, bless 'em, are fine with evolution. They've always been pretty hot on science and I think they learned with Copernicus and Galileo that if they fight obvious factual truths that are outside their control they eventually look stupid.

A few popes back they announced that evolution happened as science says (and as God planeed) but when evolution eventually created H. sapiens god shoved a soul in too. Cute eh? Not even a little bit bonkers.

My own pet theory is that if they hadn't admitted evolution back then when the tide was all going one way, they wouldn't admit it now. I reckon they'd grab the Intelligent Design straw.

 

[Parthelan]

My own pet theory is that if they hadn't admitted evolution back then when the tide was all going one way, they wouldn't admit it now. I reckon they'd grab the Intelligent Design straw.

So, even though catholics are fine with science and evolution, you still like to harber an irrelevant what-if scenario imagining they werent just to fill the time while looking for some other anti-catholic material

I think you have issues.

 

[MASSEY]

So, in your evolutionary world, man is the creator of his own destiny.

He can genetically engineer himself and his world, transplant body parts, clone animals and humans, fabricate artificial parts of all sorts, imbed subcutaneous microchips, and generally just transform his body and soul into a new Creature.

In him – Man – all things are made new.

Man has become his own god – creating and recreating himself unto immortality.

Only in your dreams, Subbynet

What is your problem with that? don't you like the idea of it?

 

[cjd]

Don't get too excited, I couldn't give a rats arse either way.

But I am interested in the way the decisions are made based on the mood music of the times. The Catholics, being massively conservative, are generally very resistant to the zeitgeist so I find the fact that they adopted evolution at all QI. Mind you, they only started to come to terms with it 100+ years after the discovery so I suppose I shouldn't read too much into it.

 

[jonmcculloch]

Nope.

Atheist from the day I popped out of the womb.

 

[DCE]

Nope.

Atheist from the day I popped out of the womb.

How than do you think all this came about?

Consider the process of human conception and birth.

Although the body normally rejects foreign tissue, the womb makes an exception for a fertilized egg.

Instead of rejecting the growing embryo as foreign tissue, it nourishes and protects it until it is ready to emerge as a baby.

Without the womb's ability to make this crucial exception to the rule of rejecting foreign tissue, human birth would be impossible.

Even so, life for a newborn baby would be short were it not for a development that takes place in the womb when a fetus is only about four months old.

At that time it begins sucking its thumb, exercising the muscles that will later enable it to feed at its mother's breasts.

And this is just one of many life-and-death matters that are resolved long before a baby's birth.

While a fetus is in the womb, there is a hole in the wall of its heart.

This hole, however, automatically closes at birth.

Additionally, a large blood vessel that bypasses the lungs while the fetus is in the womb automatically constricts at birth; blood now goes to the lungs, where it can be oxygenated as baby takes its first breath.

All came about by chance then?

 

[jonmcculloch]

How than do you think all this came about?
All came about by chance then?

Evolution, DCE. Evolution. Descent with modification. It's borne out by all the evidence, and it's been observed in the lab and in the wild.

No gods necessary.

Warmly,

Jon

 

[DCE]

Evolution, DCE. Evolution. Descent with modification. It's borne out by all the evidence, and it's been observed in the lab and in the wild.

No gods necessary.

Warmly,

Jon

For what purpose is life than?

Who set living matter in motion?

 

[jonmcculloch]

For what purpose is life than?

The purpose of life is to create more life -- DNA is a high-fidelity replicating molecule.

Who set living matter in motion?

Who?

Whoa... you are presuming a guiding intelligence there. There is no evidence to suggest there is such a thing.

The correct question is "what"?

And we don't know the answer yet (plus evolution and abiogenesis are completely different things -- you do understand that, don't you?).

So, my answer is: I don't know. Nor does anyone else, yet. But they're getting close to understanding how abiogenesis can occur. And evolution is a fact. HOW evolution happens is the theory (and it's a theory in the real, scientific meaning of the word, not the layman's meaning).

Your answer, presumably, is "God did it".

But you don't and can't know that.

You have no evidence to back up that hypothesis, and simply claiming it must be true because we don't have any other answer is hardly logical. If we'd accepted that answer we'd still be back in the Dark Ages like so many religious countries still are (you know, where you can be arrested for witchcraft. Backward).

You can believe it if you wish, and I am the last person to tell you not to.

But just bear in mind it's faith we're talking about here -- belief without evidence.

There's exactly the same amount of evidence for the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny as there is for any god.

So that's why I don't believe. I never have. I never saw any reason to.

Warmly,

Jon

 

[dagr]

...
But just bear in mind it's faith we're talking about here -- belief without evidence.

There's exactly the same amount of evidence for the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny as there is for any god.

So that's why I don't believe. I never have. I never saw any reason to.

Warmly,

Jon

So, let me get this straight: Despite hundreds of millions of followers, several books and films, you still don't believe in Harry Potter?

I'd say it takes more faith to not believe.

 

[jonmcculloch]

So, let me get this straight: Despite hundreds of millions of followers, several books and films, you still don't believe in Harry Potter?

Oh, I believe the story exists. And that's all it is. Just like the bible -- fairy tales for credulous adults.

I'd say it takes more faith to not believe.

How can it? The word "atheist" means "without belief".

How can it require belief without evidence not to have a belief. There are an infinite number of things I don't believe in; same's true for everyone, because they've never even thought of them.

So how can it take faith to have a complete absence of something?

Warmly,

Jon

 

[dagr]

I was just pre-empting and slightly distorting a believer's response.

 

[jonmcculloch]

I was just pre-empting and slightly distorting a believer's response.

Ah. Sorry.

You'd be amazed -- I hear much worse than that, and it's meant literally. I had some Fundie in Leicester say to me evolution doesn't happen because you can't see it (and you can, anyway -- in the lab). He couldn't grasp how slow it generally is, the rate by necessity being determined by the length of the generations of the species in question.

Of course, if you also then believe the Earth is just 6,000 years old, and Noah managed to get all those animals and their food on a wooden boat for a year, then I think you've got mental problems anyway.

There are still people out there who believe the Earth is the centre of the universe and the sun goes around it.

Seriously.

They're on YouTube, and it's compulsive viewing, rather like watching a bad car accident or a slow self-mutilation would be.

Warmly,

Jon

 

[cjd]

Of course, if you also then believe the Earth is just 6,000 years old, and Noah managed to get all those animals and their food on a wooden boat for a year, then I think you've got mental problems anyway.

Jon

Yup, that pretty much describes DCE.

There's no point discussing this with him, he's a Jehovah's Witness and sincerely believes that evolution theory is the work of the devil. He won't and can't read anything you say about it and is only interested in prosthelytising. Most of us have blocked him.

 

[jonmcculloch]

There's no point discussing this with him, he's a Jehovah's Witness and sincerely believes that evolution theory is the work of the devil. He won't and can't read anything you say about it and is only interested in prosthelytising. Most of us have blocked him.

Ah... the JW cult. Nice.

They soon stopped knocking on my door, I'm glad to say.

Warmly,

Jon

 

[DCE]

Ah... the JW cult. Nice.

They soon stopped knocking on my door, I'm glad to say.

Warmly,

Jon

Why was that Jon, you were seeing Bible prophecy being fulfilled in front of your very eye's.

(Matthew 24:14) 14*And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.

(Daniel 2:44) 44*“And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;

For what, though, was Jesus primarily known?

He was addressed, not as Healer, not as Feeder of Thousands, and not even as Resurrector of the Dead—although he did fill all those remarkable roles.

But people called him Teacher, and rightly so. (John 1:38; 13:13)

Jesus explained that a major reason he came to the earth was to teach people about the Kingdom of God.—Luke 4:43.

That is why Christ’s genuine followers devote themselves to the same work that occupied their Master when he walked the earth—teaching people the good news about God’s Kingdom.

Jesus Christ commissioned all true Christians to teach people worldwide about that subject. (Matthew 24:14; 28:19,20)

That incorruptible heavenly government will rule over all of God’s creation, according to the law of love.

It will accomplish God’s will, even eliminating suffering and death. (Matthew 6:9, 10; Revelation 21:3,4)

No wonder the Bible refers to Christ’s message as “good news”!—Luke 8:1.

 

[jonmcculloch]

Why was that Jon, you were seeing Bible prophecy being fulfilled in front of your very eye's.

No, I was seeing a bunch of brainwashed cretins of subnormal intellect referring to some collection of fairytales as if it was actually an accurate description of the world past, present, and future.

Rather than quoting inane scripture at me, address the facts.

Explain the tree of life and how it fits evolutionary theory no matter how you draw it: DNA (even junk DNA), morphology,phylogeny, yadda yadda yadda.

Tell me, have you ever actually read any books on evolution? Or any kind of scientific books at all?

Warmly,

Jon

 

[MASSEY]

Why was that Jon, you were seeing Bible prophecy being fulfilled in front of your very eye's.

You still haven't changed have you . Your only posting this stuff because you think it will get you into the "kingdom", your not interested in the views of others.

(Matthew 24:14) 14*And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.

Where is it then. You have been saying this for years. I said before all you do is sit around rubbing your knees over the prospect of destruction on earth.

(Daniel 2:44) 44*“And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;

This is you saying that your religion is best again isn't it. Well it's not which is why you have hardly any members. No ones interested in a made up cult.

For what, though, was Jesus primarily known?

Being an alcoholic gay sailor.

 

[DCE]

No, I was seeing a bunch of brainwashed cretins of subnormal intellect referring to some collection of fairytales as if it was actually an accurate description of the world past, present, and future.

Rather than quoting inane scripture at me, address the facts.

Explain the tree of life and how it fits evolutionary theory no matter how you draw it: DNA (even junk DNA), morphology,phylogeny, yadda yadda yadda.

Tell me, have you ever actually read any books on evolution? Or any kind of scientific books at all?

Warmly,

Jon

Lots, have you studied the Bible?

 

[DCE]

Yes that's very true.

Who says the earth is only 6000 years old?

Noah did not have a problem, it was all very organised, as the Creator, give him perfect instructions.

 

[MASSEY]

Who says the earth is only 6000 years old?

You did until you changed your opinion.

Noah did not have a problem, it was all very organised, as the Creator, give him perfect instructions.

Oh, that makes it all so very clear now then .

 

[OldWelshGuy]

Once you get your head around the fact that 'the word of god' is different to 'the word of men' you kinda get to understand that much of the old testament stories are sybolism.

Adam and eve = man and woman
Noah's boat is symbolic, not literal.


So many things in the bible are sybmbolic rather than literal. Then you have the documented history of Christ, and the rise of christianity, and that is somewhat different. That raises far more pertinent questions, questions that might be worth thinking about. such as :-

why did all the deciples die for their beliefs if it was all a lie? ALL they had to do was denounce what they believed, so why die for a lie?