Interflora sues Marks & Spencer over Google ad links

directmarketingadvice

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The point of spending money on registering a trademark is that it provides the owner with the exclusive right to use it in the course of trade in relation to relevant goods/services. The registration of a trademark is supposed to protect the time and money people spend establishing goodwill in the name of their business/product.

Where does it confer the right to prevent publishers selling advertising or people buying advertising in a publication?

Nowhere.

David, here's a challenge for you: explain what you want the rule to be in clear language which (a) treats all advertising publishing the same way and (b) treats all advertising publishing the same way.

I'll then rip it apart and show why it's utterly unworkable.

Steve
 
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David Warrilow

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What would happen if you looked up Interflora's number in the Yellow pages and, when you found their ad, it was surrounded by ads by other companies?

Oh, wait, that's always been the way it's been... and that's because YP is a publisher and allowed to sell advertising.

Steve

This is of course true, but there is a distinction in that with PPC someone is requesting information in relation to the specific search term they use. They're not browsing through a magazine that contains a compendium of adverts.

The analogy about someone phoning a directory service and asking for the contact details of party A but being given details of parties A, B and C is more accurate.
 
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True, but none of the other advertisers have paid to be intentionally associated with your business name.

assumption you don't know that as its quite likely that interflora's competitors know if they place an ad for flowers Interflora will be on that page,and therefore they may benefit from the greater searces for interflora or any other companies ad that is likely to attract a large search volume including M&S.;)

Earl
 
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David Warrilow

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Where does it confer the right to prevent publishers selling advertising or people buying advertising in a publication?

Nowhere.

David, here's a challenge for you: explain what you want the rule to be in clear language which (a) treats all advertising publishing the same way and (b) treats all advertising publishing the same way.

I'll then rip it apart and show why it's utterly unworkable.

Steve

There's nothing to stop people buying advertising in relation to generic terms, as mentioned. However, there are restrictions on buying advertising using other peoples' trademarks in virtually all circumstances, such as you entering an advert in a paper with a competitor's name but your phone number.

The law just needs to catch up with PPC, which is where this case is heading. Hopefully!

What you are asking for is impossible as all advertising works in different ways and should therefore be treated differently.

The judgement will go one way or the other. We can argue here forever. Maybe we should wait for the judgement as I don't think we're going to get much further by arguing. If you disagree with the judgement try to 'rip it apart'.

David
 
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David Warrilow

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assumption you don't know that as its quite likely that interflora's competitors know if they place an ad for flowers Interflora will be on that page,and therefore they may benefit from the greater searces for interflora or any other companies ad that is likely to attract a large search volume including M&S.;)

Earl

So people put list their companies in the Yellow Pages because they think that their ad will appear next to their competitors? I don't think so. They list them because they know people will consult the YP if looking for someone. And they will look under a generic section (for example 'plumbers').

The PPC issue is akin to the YP having sections being divided by company name and people being able to pay to be listed in, for example the 'Homebase' section.
 
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directmarketingadvice

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The law just needs to catch up with PPC, which is where this case is heading. Hopefully!

Why? Why does the law need to treat Google differently from other websites?

And why only PPC? Why not the organic listings? A site isn't going to be on page 1 for "interflora" without someone using the word "interflora" somewhere in relation to that site.

What you are asking for is impossible as all advertising works in different ways and should therefore be treated differently.

Really? It seems to me that the laws for advertising are pretty much the same across the board.

It seems that people like you want to create a special case for PPC by taking what was a moral argument (about libel and passing off) and trying to twist the small print in order to try to gain a competitive advantage.

That's why you can't come up with a simple wording for what you want the law to be. Because your case is based on small print, not a moral argument.

And because there's no morality, there's no consistency: you're against companies using PPC, but not against companies using SEO. You're against companies advertising on Google, but not on other sites.... and so on and so on.

(Which is why I knew that, whatever wording you came up with, I could come up with real-life examples that were treated inconsistently.)

And that's why, if Interflora win, it'll open up can of worms that'll go well beyond PPC and will affect all sorts of websites and all forms of online advertising (including SEO).

Steve
 
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David Warrilow

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And why only PPC? Why not the organic listings? A site isn't going to be on page 1 for "interflora" without someone using the word "interflora" somewhere in relation to that site.

Steve

It's not only PPC, as demonstrated by the Reed v Reed case previously talked about, amongst many others.

The internet is in comparative terms to trademark law very new, and it requires people to bring an action in court for new case law to develop. This will inevitably happen in the future.

It seems that people like you want to create a special case for PPC by taking what was a moral argument (about libel and passing off) and trying to twist the small print in order to try to gain a competitive advantage.

Steve

People like me? What exactly does that mean? I'm someone that is aware of trademark law in relation to practices on and off the internet. In my view the law would be out of line if it allowed PPC to be a special exemption. This is my opinion. In reality it doesn't matter to me either way. I will continue to advise clients on the current state of the law. I understand it may matter to you as this is the area you work in, and if this ruling goes in Interflora's favour you may not be able to do something you are currently doing?

That's why you can't come up with a simple wording for what you want the law to be. Because your case is based on small print, not a moral argument.

Steve

Please don't misrepresent me Steve, It's 'unbecoming' in your words. Refer to my post (#157) where I said:

People have the freedom to advertise to people who are interested in their services. They can use descriptive terms such as (in this instance) 'flower delivery' or 'buy flowers'. I don't think that people should be allowed to advertize their products/services using competitors' registered trademarks.

The point of spending money on registering a trademark is that it provides the owner with the exclusive right to use it in the course of trade in relation to relevant goods/services. The registration of a trademark is supposed to protect the time and money people spend establishing goodwill in the name of their business/product.


This is a moral argument. I think people should have their efforts rewarded, and I don't think people should be allowed to ride on their coat-tails.

And you really want a simple guide as to what is and is not acceptable?

Okay, I'll make it as simple as possible:

'Don't use your competitors' trademarks in the course of trade unless you have a valid defence (predominantly under section 11 of the Trade Marks Act 1994):

11 Limits on effect of registered trade mark.

(1)A registered trade mark is not infringed by the use of another registered trade mark in relation to goods or services for which the latter is registered (but see section 47(6) (effect of declaration of invalidity of registration)).

(2)A registered trade mark is not infringed by—

(a)the use by a person of his own name or address,

(b)the use of indications concerning the kind, quality, quantity, intended purpose, value, geographical origin, the time of production of goods or of rendering of services, or other characteristics of goods or services, or

(c)the use of the trade mark where it is necessary to indicate the intended purpose of a product or service (in particular, as accessories or spare parts),

provided the use is in accordance with honest practices in industrial or commercial matters.

(3)A registered trade mark is not infringed by the use in the course of trade in a particular locality of an earlier right which applies only in that locality.

For this purpose an “earlier right” means an unregistered trade mark or other sign continuously used in relation to goods or services by a person or a predecessor in title of his from a date prior to whichever is the earlier of—

(a)the use of the first-mentioned trade mark in relation to those goods or services by the proprietor or a predecessor in title of his, or

(b)the registration of the first-mentioned trade mark in respect of those goods or services in the name of the proprietor or a predecessor in title of his;

and an earlier right shall be regarded as applying in a locality if, or to the extent that, its use in that locality is protected by virtue of any rule of law (in particular, the law of passing off).


And that's why, if Interflora win, it'll open up can of worms that'll go well beyond PPC and will affect all sorts of websites and all forms of online advertising (including SEO).

Steve

It may well do and perhaps quite rightly.

It may even have implications for activities not on the internet.
 
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directmarketingadvice

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People like me? What exactly does that mean?

Lawyers and the people who hire lawyers to try to take advantage of the small print, without respecting what a law was meant to mean in the first place.

I understand it may matter to you as this is the area you work in, and if this ruling goes in Interflora's favour you may not be able to do something you are currently doing?

What you want is a lousy law. Unless you can single out PPC for special treatment, you're going to have to cover all forms of internet advertising.

The problem is, you - and whatever judge would rule in your favour - have so little understanding of internet marketing that whatever you'll decide will have side-effects you can't imagine.

It'll be a lousy judgement that bleeds all over the place and will affect both freedom of speech and the right of online publishers to sell advertising.

That's why I oppose it.

A clean law would have been that Google isn't allowed to sell these terms - that would stop the law being broken in the first place and everyone would know where they stand. But companies tried that and lost.

Please don't misrepresent me Steve, It's 'unbecoming' in your words.

I challenged you to come up with a wording, you ran away from that challenge. All I'm doing is suggesting why.

This is a moral argument. I think people should have their efforts rewarded, and I don't think people should be allowed to ride on their coat-tails.

Except for Google, of course. You don't think they should be rewarded for returning search results for trademarked terms.

The point of spending money on registering a trademark is that it provides the owner with the exclusive right to use it in the course of trade in relation to relevant goods/services.

Here's the question: how do you define "using it"? It's so vague.

The registration of a trademark is supposed to protect the time and money people spend establishing goodwill in the name of their business/product.

"Protect" from what?

And you really want a simple guide as to what is and is not acceptable?

No, I want you to draw a line in the sand - one that treats all websites and all advertising the same - the way I did with:

"Publishers have the right to sell advertisments. Advertisers have the right to buy that ad space and run ads as long as the content of those ads is legal."

Right now all I hear from the Interflora people is that people searching on that word only want Interflora and their associates (which isn't true). And, from you, some technicalities about someone typing a trademarked term into a password-protected interface.

I still don't hear why this one website should be allowed to sell advertising to its visitors, but people shouldn't be allowed to buy that advertising.

Don't you look at your argument and think "What the hell? Am I really arguing that no-one can buy something that I agree can be sold?".

That's what I mean by small print. The whole thing depends on something utterly illogical. It's like Major Major in "Catch 22": you could only go into his office to see him when he wasn't in his office.

Steve
 
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David Warrilow

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A clean law would have been that Google isn't allowed to sell these terms - that would stop the law being broken in the first place and everyone would know where they stand. But companies tried that and lost.

Steve

They lost because they sued the wrong person - Google. The ECJ held that Google wasn't using the mark in the course of trade (an essential element of infringement).

If they had sued the people actually using the trademarks they may have won - this is what the Interflora case is about. Suing the right person instead of the person providing the advertising service.

I can't see why you find it difficult to understand.

Don't you look at your argument and think "What the hell? Am I really arguing that no-one can buy something that I agree can be sold?".

Steve

No, I don't. I'm still not sure why you find this concept so difficult to grasp for the reasons given above.

Also, in Google France the ECJ said that if Google knew about the use of the keywords then they might be an accessory to trademark infringement.

That's what I mean by small print. The whole thing depends on something utterly illogical. It's like Major Major in "Catch 22": you could only go into his office to see him when he wasn't in his office.

Steve

It's entirely logical.
 
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cjd

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    It's entirely logical.

    Yup and quite easy to understand. I'm struggling to see why people here have such difficulty getting the point.

    Just as M&S is not allowed to put a banner above it's flower department saying 'Interflora' without permission, they should not be allowed to enter the keyword 'Interflora' is a search engine which will then generate an M&S ad on the user's screen.

    It's the same issue - it's using the goodwill of another's trademarked brand to gain financial advantage. I expect them to win - but there's a decent likely-hood of losing on an p1ssy technicality.
     
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    Yup and quite easy to understand. I'm struggling to see why people here have such difficulty getting the point.

    Just as M&S is not allowed to put a banner above it's flower department saying 'Interflora' without permission, they should not be allowed to enter the keyword 'Interflora' is a search engine which will then generate an M&S ad on the user's screen.

    It's the same issue - it's using the goodwill of another's trademarked brand to gain financial advantage. I expect them to win - but there's a decent likely-hood of losing on an p1ssy technicality.

    Again I suspect its googles responsibility ,although a court has ruled its not.:|

    As Steves says if a product is legally for sale then you should be able to purchase it.

    This seems blatently obvious to everyone except the legal profession.:eek:

    Ergo its google that is the culprit in this case.IMHO

    Earl
     
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    Again I suspect its googles responsibility ,although a court has ruled its not.:|

    As Steves says if a product is legally for sale then you should be able to purchase it.

    This seems blatently obvious to everyone except the legal profession.:eek:

    Ergo its google that is the culprit in this case.IMHO

    Earl

    The court case which Google won was a different kind of case.

    AFAICS it is legal for independent florists who are associated with Interflora to buy the Interflora name from Google to use on their own websites to advertise the fact that they are Interflora florists.
     
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    cjd

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    Again I suspect its googles responsibility ,although a court has ruled its not.:|

    That's easier to understand. Google can claim to have no knowledge of the use that their tools will be put to. And....

    As Steves says if a product is legally for sale then you should be able to purchase it.

    A shotgun is legally purchasable but its use as a tool to kill people is illegal.

    Most of the law is about intent; in this case it's not obvious that Google intends to benefit from trademark misuse - altho' it does - but beyond doubt M&S is intending to use the Inferflora brand to its advantage. Form your own conclusion.
     
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    That's easier to understand. Google can claim to have no knowledge of the use that their tools will be put to. And....



    A shotgun is legally purchasable but its use as a tool to kill people is illegal.

    Most of the law is about intent; in this case it's not obvious that Google intends to benefit from trademark misuse - altho' it does - but beyond doubt M&S is intending to use the Inferflora brand to its advantage. Form your own conclusion.

    Little bit different in this case as one does not recieve the shotgun and where its pointed is under googles control.

    Its obviously wrong that a company can benefit from using anothers trademark.

    But I can only see Google as being the responsible party in this on the grounds of not being bothered to check there adds e.t.c.

    In the case of a newspaper I am pretty sure they check all there adds to make sure they are acceptable.

    Earl
     
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    deniser

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    But I can only see Google as being the responsible party in this on the grounds of not being bothered to check there adds e.t.c.

    l


    You can't expect Google to police every registered trademark and check every Google ad beforehand to see a) whether it is a trademark and b) whether the advertiser has permission to use it. This is just totally impractical.

    You can, however, expect each individual advertiser to check whether the words they are bidding on are a trademark or not.
     
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    David Warrilow

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    You can't expect Google to police every registered trademark and check every Google ad beforehand to see a) whether it is a trademark and b) whether the advertiser has permission to use it. This is just totally impractical.

    You can, however, expect each individual advertiser to check whether the words they are bidding on are a trademark or not.


    And this is the stance the ECJ took in Google France. It's perfectly sensible.
     
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    cjd

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    But I can only see Google as being the responsible party in this on the grounds of not being bothered to check there adds e.t.c.

    I agree, I believe that Google is deliberately allowing others to break a law and is therefore culpable. Unfortunately, the law, as defined so far by case law, does not agree with me.

    But Google can (disingenuously) claim not be be the active agent but a passive tool.

    This defence is not available to M&S because their actions are deliberate and obviously aimed at using the Inteflora brand for its own financial gain.
     
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    You can't expect Google to police every registered trademark and check every Google ad beforehand to see a) whether it is a trademark and b) whether the advertiser has permission to use it. This is just totally impractical.

    why not ,more work but this is the age of the super computer that does trillions of things a second.

    Because of the size of google it does not exempt them from doing what every publisher has to do.I.E check there adds before displaying them.:|

    Earl
     
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    directmarketingadvice

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    why not ,more work but this is the age of the super computer that does trillions of things a second.

    I'm 100% in agreement with Earl on this. All Google would need is a database of terms that people can't bid on and can't be shown for.

    Then, whenever someone enters keywords, they can be checked against this.

    Google already has checks like this. It checks against trademarked words in ads and it checks against words you're not allowed to use (such as "bad language" or medical terms).

    So, technically, there's nothing stopping Google from doing this. OK, they might not have every trademark in their list, but it gives companies one place to go to forever stop ads running for a particular term.

    (By filling in a form to request the ads are stopped.)

    This is far cleaner, simpler and cheaper than chasing companies with lawyers.

    Unfortunatly for those that want these ads banned, that would require proving that Google shouldn't be allowed to run these ads. And that's been tried and has failed.

    Hence this backdoor attempt at trying to get them stopped by going after the advertisers.

    Steve
     
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    UKSBD

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    That is thw whole point, if they do it once they are then classed as being part of it.

    similay to forums, if everything is completely unmoderated they are just seen as displaying the info, once it is moderated they accept responsibility
    (words to that effect anyway)
     
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    directmarketingadvice

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    They lost because they sued the wrong person - Google. The ECJ held that Google wasn't using the mark in the course of trade (an essential element of infringement).

    Google is profiting from those ads and stores the keyword on their system. Therefore, they're using the mark in the course of trade.

    I can't see why you find it difficult to understand.

    Maybe because you've not explained it?

    No, I don't. I'm still not sure why you find this concept so difficult to grasp for the reasons given above.

    This is a screaming inconsistency and, as far as I'm concerned, you've yet to come up with an explanation of why it's correct that this inconsistency should stand. Or why it's correct for it to stand, rather than for Google to also be prevented from allowing ads for those keywords.

    It's entirely logical.

    You think it's "entirely logical" that something can be sold legally but not bought legally?

    Really?

    Steve
     
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    Sproston

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    if interflora wins this case it sets a very worrying precedent indeed. Granted, my knowledge of law is limited at best - but I really don't see how there is a case here. Anytalk of trademark infringement is (if common sense is to be a judge) irrelevant. M&S are not passing themselves off to be interflora, a subsidiary or affiliate of interflora, or anything other than viable competition to interflora.

    As has been mentioned, the closest analogy I feel would be that if an article was written solely about interflora, would it be equally as illegal for M&S to purchase an advert on the page regardless of whether the article is online or in a paper publication?

    Were interflora to win this, the biggest loser won't be marks and spencer, it will be joe and jenny blog consumer.

    Furthermore, were an I independent florist, if I used the broad match term 'florist' would I then have to research every trademarked florist in the UK and add them to my negative match list? After all, if someone ever searched 'interflora florist' 'm&S florist' 'asda florist' 'flowers direct florist' then my advert may show, and I would be liable.

    Incidentally, someone (Earl I think? I've a sievey memory today!) posted the SERPS which returned an interflora ad for the search 'marks and spencer flowers'. I notice this has since been removed, but I doubt M&S will have missed that; so surely interflora open themselves up nice and wide for a counter-suit (is that the right term?) if they do actually win!
     
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    deniser

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    I agree they can check the words against a trademark register BUT they can't check who is entitled to use the trademarks because there is no way of finding this information; only the companies themselves will know.

    I am an authorised reseller of many brands of clothing and am therefore entitled to use those companies' logos and trademarks in the course of my business which presumably includes bidding for those keywords but I wouldn't bid for a brand name that I don't stock.

    How is Google to know which brands I am allowed to bid for and which I am not? There is no way it can find out unless I give them a piece of paper authorising me to do that or show them my contract for the supply with the supplier.
     
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    directmarketingadvice

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    It's the same issue - it's using the goodwill of another's trademarked brand to gain financial advantage.

    Interflora are using the goodwill of Google's brand to gain financial advantage - both through SEO and through PPC.

    So why do you have no problem with that?

    What you've just said can't be the line in the sand. It's utterly unworkable.

    So what is the line in the sand?

    Steve

    PS I have 2 counter-examples I'm sitting on that will take apart any "if you type the name into your keyword list, you're breaking the law" arguments.

    I'm still waiting for someone to come up with a good enough argument that I need to use them.
     
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    deniser

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    Google is profiting from those ads and stores the keyword on their system. Therefore, they're using the mark in the course of trade.

    And so they should because some people are genuinely morally and legally entitled to bid on those keywords ie. the Interflora group of florists. But not every florist.

    They can't police who is and who isn't entitled to bid for each keyword as they can't know that information.
     
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    directmarketingadvice

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    PS I have 2 counter-examples I'm sitting on that will take apart any "if you type the name into your keyword list, you're breaking the law" arguments.

    I'm still waiting for someone to come up with a good enough argument that I need to use them.

    I spoke too soon:

    Furthermore, were an I independent florist, if I used the broad match term 'florist' would I then have to research every trademarked florist in the UK and add them to my negative match list? After all, if someone ever searched 'interflora florist' 'm&S florist' 'asda florist' 'flowers direct florist' then my advert may show, and I would be liable.

    One of my examples was going to be if you were selling blinds online and bidding on the phrase match "blinds".

    If somone typed in "apollo blinds", your ad would show as a phrase match.

    Q1: Does that mean you should be sued?

    Q2: how would Apollo blinds know what your keyword is? How would they be able to tell whether you were bidding on "apollo blinds" or just "blinds"?

    As I've said more than once, if this makes any sense, it only makes sense if it's Google that's controlling what's showing, not the advertisers. Otherwise, it's utterly unworkable.

    Steve
     
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    directmarketingadvice

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    How is Google to know which brands I am allowed to bid for and which I am not? There is no way it can find out unless I give them a piece of paper authorising me to do that or show them my contract for the supply with the supplier.

    In the case of medical words, you can ask for an exception and you have to give a reason. Then they review it.

    I've also seen that when using trademarked terms in ads - they refuse the ad unless you ask for an exception. Then they review it.

    It would be pretty straightforward to police for companies that don't sell through others. More complex for retailers selling brand items, but not impossible.

    Steve
     
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    I spoke too soon:



    One of my examples was going to be if you were selling blinds online and bidding on the phrase match "blinds".

    If somone typed in "apollo blinds", your ad would show as a phrase match.

    Q1: Does that mean you should be sued?

    Q2: how would Apollo blinds know what your keyword is? How would they be able to tell whether you were bidding on "apollo blinds" or just "blinds"?

    As I've said more than once, if this makes any sense, it only makes sense if it's Google that's controlling what's showing, not the advertisers. Otherwise, it's utterly unworkable.

    Steve

    Dear Steve

    I'm surprised at your example. To me it shows you still have not grasped what this is about. Interflora are not objecting to M&S using the word 'FLOWERS'.
     
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    cjd

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    Interflora are using the goodwill of Google's brand to gain financial advantage - both through SEO and through PPC.

    So why do you have no problem with that?

    Because Google actively want and go out of their way to encourage Inteflora and the rest of the world's brands using them. Obviously - it's their business model and they have no complaint about it.

    What you've just said can't be the line in the sand. It's utterly unworkable.

    So what is the line in the sand?

    For some reason you're making this much harder than it is. Google only need to make it a T&C that you're not allowed to use another's trademark as a key word.

    If they receive a complaint from Interflora that their brand is being misused they can do any number of things to sort it out. Ultimately they would have a technical solution. It's just not a real problem.
     
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    Sproston

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    I'm surprised at your example. To me it shows you still have not grasped what this is about. Interflora are not objecting to M&S using the word 'FLOWERS'.

    That's not the point he's making. The point is if Interflora suceed, it will set the precedent that when I have 'flowers' as a phrase matched term, I will be liable when someone googles 'interflora flowers' and my ad shows, even though none of my keywords contain trademarked terms.

    Google only need to make it a T&C that you're not allowed to use another's trademark as a key word.

    And lose how much? I don't see why on Earth they'd want to do this and lose income, especially considering they've already won cases in regards to this.
     
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    directmarketingadvice

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    For some reason you're making this much harder than it is. Google only need to make it a T&C that you're not allowed to use another's trademark as a key word.

    They could do, but according to the courts, they don't need to. They're allowed to run ads.

    To me, the moral question was whether ads should be allowed That was the case Geico v Google... and Geico lost.

    Now all that's left is this "Google can sell the ads, but no-one can buy them argument".

    Which, as I keep saying, is illogical. I can't think of another instance where someone has the right to sell something no-one has the right to buy.

    Steve
     
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