Free tax clinic

Zeno

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Jun 12, 2008
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Following on my post from here http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=153212&page=4

I wonder if any the other accountants/tax advisors would care to comment on the proposed idea of a free tax clinic to assist those on low incomes (yet to be properly defined) with tax obligations.

Specifically, do you believe that such a service would be useful? Is there a need for it in your opinion?

How would HMRC take it, especially in light of the recent scaremongering regarding fines for tax advice?
 

Strontium Dog

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Dec 2, 2008
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Would it just be to give something back to society ?

Would it be to advertise your practice ?

Who would decide who qualified for it ? Lots of micro business owners live on the breadline.

Yes, I think the provider would need a PC and PII. Moneylaundering would be easy as you just ask them to bring their ID with them. (Photo on your phone for evidence).

Would the visitors be expected to make any sort of payment/donation?

What if forms/accounts/paperwork needed doing - ie several hours work?

You need to decide these things.
 
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elaine@cheapaccounting

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    There is a charity provides this kind of services.

    http://www.taxaid.org.uk/

    I believe a charity provides this kind of help to the pensioner. ( I can not remember the name).

    I have been thinking to give half a day to TaxAid. But due to one or the other reason, I have not been to commit yet.

    that was referred to in the other thread
     
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    Zeno

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    The reasons for doing it would be strictly charitable (no remuneration) but I suppose there would have to be some promotion of the volunteers own or employers practices allowed of which I can see little harm in (ignoring liability issues just now).

    The qualification procedure would need a lot of work and might have to start a bit hit or miss. The service would not aim to replace proper professional advice for those who need it IE - in business but more to help those with a return to submit but who can't manage it themselves and can't afford to pay an accountant to do so (in all honesty, I and I imagine most of us are not set up to be able to do this in our existing practices).

    Would not be the intention to have to prepare accounts as this would again result from running a business but perhaps on a case by case basis under certain circumstances.

    I had thought that the clinic would not actually enage clients as in registering as Agent via a 64/8 but this may not be possible.

    I reckon a suggested donation might work to contribute to running costs but no actual fees.

    Much to think about which is why it sadly may never happen.
     
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    elaine@cheapaccounting

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    Much to think about which is why it sadly may never happen.

    And there in lies the problem always.

    IMO to let this off the ground would be a full time role initially - to sort out the workings / liability etc.

    When I retire maybe .....
     
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    elaine@cheapaccounting

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    In 30 years ....

    well as that would make me 76 ......

    I hope to retire a lot bloody sooner than that thanks - if there is any money left in the pot for a bit of a pension for cakes, chocolate & wine in my old age :p
     
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    Zeno

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    Can I just say that I think you should all be praised for even thinking of this, and the best of luck if you do get it off the ground.

    The poor and disadvantaged members of society often need practical help more than anything else.

    Over the years, but much more so recently I come across clients on very low incomes and in many cases that have no need for a tax return other than the fact that HMRC has sent them one that I feel I am not in a position to help mainly because the administration burden to me - client indentification, engagement letters etc makes in inpractical (not to mention that most surface in January...).

    I feel that if someone where to read in the paper etc that there was a free service they could come along to to get ad hoc help then it may stop them worrying, burying their heads in the sand, accruing penalties & threatening letters.
     
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    RAL

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    ... those with a return to submit but who can't manage it themselves and can't afford to pay an accountant to do so (in all honesty, I and I imagine most of us are not set up to be able to do this in our existing practices).

    I thought about having a 1/2 day clinic to provide face to face help those who could not afford the services of the professional. I was thinking to help particularly, single parent, pensioners, low income family etc.

    You have got good idea. Lets try and make it work. I believe it would do a good service to the society. I would be happy to provide some time (Max 4 hours a week).
     
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    MyAccountantOnline

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    Following on my post from here http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=153212&page=4

    I wonder if any the other accountants/tax advisors would care to comment on the proposed idea of a free tax clinic to assist those on low incomes (yet to be properly defined) with tax obligations.

    Specifically, do you believe that such a service would be useful? Is there a need for it in your opinion?

    How would HMRC take it, especially in light of the recent scaremongering regarding fines for tax advice?

    If you can get something off the ground I'd be very happy to help if it was a few hours a week/month.

    I havent actually seen much in the way of demand for such a service but I am sure it exists.
     
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    David Griffiths

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    I take it that the clinic would be face-to-face rather than an online service.

    I'd see that as quite difficult to set up on anything other than a very local basis, because of the issue of finding premises and the fundamental problems of structure and avoiding liability for poor advice given by an advisor. Even if it's only a few hours a week, there would be the need for several accountants to cover holidays, sickness etc plus people to act as receptionists. Very few people could commit to four hours a week, week in week out, no matter what day.

    Then there are issues of publicity, managing demand, terms and conditions, money laundering and all that jazz. A lot to think about.
     
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    Philip Hoyle

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    Zeno-count me in as well please, but some kind of "ground rules", being eligibility criteria and record keeping quality is, in my mind, essential, so that we only help good causes.

    I already do some "pro-bono" jobs and some heavily discounted jobs, but find it very hard to try to do the right thing by choosing the ones to help. I've tended to work on the basis of only helping "innocent" people - i.e. those who've really tried their best but have been beaten back by circumstances completely out of their control.

    I've also found it difficult to decide who to take on, when many times there are other agencies offering the same support, i.e. Citizens' Advice, Taxaid, or even HMRC themselves if they manage to get through to someone who knows what they're doing.

    Quite a number of times, I've been taken in by sob stories of people claiming they're broke, only to see relatively healthy amounts on money in their bank accounts, or investments, etc. Also quite common are people too lazy to sort out their paperwork or do any book-keeping - if they're not being charged for it, they tend not to want to spend their time sorting it out for you.

    Despite the potential for "takers", I've always found the pro-bono work to be very worthwhile. I've seen the change in people from when they first come into see me, losing sleep and depressed, worried about the prospects of losing their homes etc due to ridiculous tax assessments and threatening HMRC letters, and then to see them happy again a few weeks later, all for the sake of a couple of hours work and a couple of letters to HMRC.

    At the moment, my approach is initially to simply offer a freebie first meeting to try to get to the bottom of the problem. It's surprising how many times all that's needed is a clear head and an outsider's view, and they go away happily able to sort it out themselves once they know what's what and who they need to contact. I try to avoid taking over and doing too much myself.

    It would be interesting to see the consensus view moving forward. I must admit, I really like the idea of a "UK business forums accountant" group offering this kind of help. Sometimes it feels like one big happy family of accountants on here - makes you want to help out eachother and work together for the common good. What a difference it is to some other fora (accounting web for one!)
     
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    elaine@cheapaccounting

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    I must admit, I really like the idea of a "UK business forums accountant" group offering this kind of help. Sometimes it feels like one big happy family of accountants on here - makes you want to help out eachother and work together for the common good. What a difference it is to some other fora (accounting web for one!)


    Hear hear.

    I totally agree.

    Personally I think it takes a lot of effort to be horrible and not much effort to be nice.

    It seems that I come across some people who could best re-direct said effort to running a business or getting on with their job :rolleyes::):p:eek:

    Luckily for me they are a minority that I choose to ignore :D
     
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    Zeno

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    Thanks Phil. I am afraid you have hit upon one of the issues that will require much work - who exactly we would aim to help?

    My initial thoughts are similiar to yours - people in the "system" of whom tax returns are expected but lack the means for professional help. I was not really planning on those who are in business however this is not clear cut - CIS subbies for example are not always self employed through their own choice.

    We would also have to decide on the definition of "low income" as this is going to be subjective and highly variable. What about those who are asset rich but cash poor? Very difficult to decide.

    I think David G was the one that mentioned that we could well become a sounding board or second opinion for tax payers unhappy with their liabilities as calculated by the current advisors and I think I can safely say that we definetely do not want this to happen.
     
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    elaine@cheapaccounting

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    I would like to champion the 'pensioner' sector - with pensions from various sources now, tax returns are more common than before with little / no funds (in low income cases) to complete and a tendency for HMRC to get tax codes 'incorrect' in allocation to the various sources of income.

    Happy to be the 'lead' here
     
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    Poldenacc

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    Hi all,

    I would also be interested in joining in on this project. Guess it would be difficult to do face-2-face clinics with us all across the country, but could start with an online clinic?

    Agree the "starter for 10" is how we set the definition on who qualifies. Definitely not an easy question to answer!
     
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    Zeno

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    Have you tried asking the local citizens advice if they would like someone to come in and run a clinic periodically under their banner? This might resolve the admin issue and also provide premises.

    Interesting idea but I think they would want to much control in the operations. I doubt they would let us determine who we were going to help.
     
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    David Griffiths

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    I have to say that I'm not sure that an online clinic is going to work, particularly with older "customers". How would it operate? Post questions and wait for answers, as in this forum? Or an interactive "chat" type facility? If the latter, how many people can type quickly enough to make that workable?

    More to the point, what most customers will be looking for is reassurance, and I'm not sure how that is going to be conveyed over the internet. Words are quite a small part of inter-person communication - less than 20% iirc - and a huge amount is conveyed by body language and tone.

    Meeting in person will help the customer judge if the expert is sympathetic to them, and appears to be competent in what he or she is saying. It's also much more interactive in terms of holding a conversation.

    Sure plenty of pensioners will have internet access, and be used to surfing, but loads won't have access, and of those that do many won't be able to type quickly enough or will want human contact to deal with a human problem.
     
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    maxine

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    I'd like to offer my help to support too if I can in some way.

    Maybe I could help with hosting online questionnaires for people to fill in, or man an emergency helpline number, or ring/email round to see who would be available out of you lot either remotely or locally to that particular customer... and if you peeps set the criteria for who to help then I might be able to help pre-qualify.

    Just suggestions & thoughts

    Did you people particularly want this to be a ukbf group or how would you feel about expanding it to other accountants who might also opt in for a good cause as I can think of some of my clients would might also participate if time contribution wasn't too great.

    :)
     
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