Would an EU exit help us trade with more developing countries?

I've just been in an interesting Vote Leave seminar at The Small Business Show where an entrepreneur argued an EU exit would help unlock trade with developing countries:

"I believe as a brit of Nigerian heritage we need a better conversation about these economies, primarily because we can’t negotiate independent trade agreements with these countries.

"If we don’t send billions to Europe every year, we could use some of this money to target businesses that are exporting successfully."

It turned out he's exporting to countries exclusively outside of the EU, which no doubt would make him biased, but it's an interesting argument. What do you think?
 
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Deleted member 59730

Having exported my skills to Nigeria very profitably I can say that Trade Agreements are unlikely to help small businesses. As for large businesses you might not remember that a few years ago Nigeria had imported shiploads of stuff which they did not pay for. It was combined and concerted action by the EU which made Nigeria implement a system of import licences and to pay for what they ordered. Despite being in the British Commonwealth the UK did sod all to help.

There is already loads of help available to exporters.

You don't need a trade agreement to export anywhere.
 
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You don't need a trade agreement to export anywhere.

Indeed. Are there no tariffs though? I know, for example, that with the US there are some niche industries that are entirely blocked out because of targeted, protectionist taxes. Although the EU isn't helping with that particular example yet...
 
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RambleRuth

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Having exported my skills to Nigeria very profitably I can say that Trade Agreements are unlikely to help small businesses. As for large businesses you might not remember that a few years ago Nigeria had imported shiploads of stuff which they did not pay for. It was combined and concerted action by the EU which made Nigeria implement a system of import licences and to pay for what they ordered. Despite being in the British Commonwealth the UK did sod all to help.

There is already loads of help available to exporters.

You don't need a trade agreement to export anywhere.
I think you have highlighted an important point here in regards to our involvement in the EU. The EU has a system in place that means business trading can run more smoothly and any problems can be dealt with systematically. I think in general many people assume leaving the EU will give us more freedom but in fact it leaves things open for more problems that the UK alone is perhaps not equipped to deal with as your example clearly negates.
 
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Deleted member 59730

Indeed. Are there no tariffs though? I know, for example, that with the US there are some niche industries that are entirely blocked out because of targeted, protectionist taxes. Although the EU isn't helping with that particular example yet...

And the Brexiters want to swap a few selective tariffs with a whole load of new ones from every EU country? Seems like a recipe for disaster.
 
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Michael_N

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So many people talking sense here... I've had to stop listening to LBC to stop listening to 80% BRexit idi0£s talking about £50 million a day we send to Brussels and all those Chinesee and Russians buying out London (which btw they would still do after BRexit)

Completely agree... Whoever thinks we can get better trading deal as a standalone country than being part of much larger buying power is considered complete lunatic (by me)!

EU is far from perfect, but until better alternative comes it seems to be best one we have available I'm afraid..
 
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We have to use this for an article headline!

Be my guest!

It doesn't matter which way you vote. The whole of the EU may want us out and we may vote to leave, but the owners of this country want things to stay the way they are, so that's how it will be, regardless of how anybody votes.

If you don't believe me, look at Switzerland. They had a referendum on abolishing the freedom of movement of labour over two years ago. Those seeking to abolish the freedom of movement won.

And . . . ?

Did anything happen?

Was the will of the people followed?

Was it f**k!

You can no more leave Europe than you can regain your virginity!
 
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Carl "Excel-Expert" Nixon

Whoever thinks we can get better trading deal as a standalone country than being part of much larger buying power is considered complete lunatic (by me)!

I would counter that with we are the worlds 5th biggest economy. So unless we really muck things up, countries are going to want to trade with us and achieve favourable trading treaties. For example Germany, who basically control the EU these days, is not going to want to give up its access to the UK car market and will not be keen on tariffs. There is also nothing stopping the UK from maintaining its access to the EU free market by paying membership.

I would also add our GDP per capita is 27% higher than Europe's combined GDP per capita. Our GDP per capita is 39,500 euros to Europe's 28,700 euros.

There appears to be a billion and one ways to look at the numbers and they can be shaped to suit either side's needs.
 
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Just for the record (not that I care deeply!) -

I would counter that with we are the worlds 5th biggest economy.

UK GDP 2015 $2,680bn
France GDP 2015 $2,806bn

So 6th largest nominally, 9th in purchasing power parity.

I would also add our GDP per capita is 27% higher than Europe's combined GDP per capita. Our GDP per capita is 39,500 euros to Europe's 28,700 euros.

UK GDP per capita $41,780 or c.a. 37,000€
Germany $46,250
France $42,560
Ireland $50,480
Total Euro-Zone $39,360

All figures from Economist Intelligence Unit 'World in Figures - 2016'.
 
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Carl "Excel-Expert" Nixon

On the first post we are looking at the same numbers in a different way. If you measure economy by GDP per capita we are 5th - I was lead to believe this is a more accurate way of measuring.

On the second point I'm going by numbers on European GDP as posted in Wikipedia for 2015 (cant post links yet)

Do you have a link for the Economist figures?
 
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World-wide, GDP per capita (i.e. per person) the UK is at position 27 nominally and 32 in purchasing power parity, which gives you an average standard of living.

The UK has the lowest standard of living in North West Europe, except for France, which is roughly equally as poor on average.

Average however, does not mean median (equal number above as below) or mode (value most represented or popular or likely) but the mean. Because the UK has the highest level of social inequality in Europe (difference between rich and poor) the poor in the UK and the middle classes are considerably poorer in the UK than in France, despite the fact that GDP per capita is about the same.

If we measure standard of living against the US and give the US an average SoL of 100, then the UK has a SoL of 72. By comparison, Luxembourg has a SoL of 172, Norway 121, NL 87, Ireland 86. Germany 83. In all there are 31 countries with a higher SoL than the UK.

The richest is Macau with 269. Lucky them!

If we add other things like health care (UK loses points) personal freedom (UK gains points) education and other things that go to make up a so-called 'Human Development Index' then the UK is at position 14. Top is Norway, followed by Australia, Switzerland, NL, US, Germany.

The worst place to live on Earth is Niger. Unlucky them!

Unfortunately, one has to buy these figures for £11 in book form. As I do some freelance work for the EIU, I get a free copy every year. Lucky me!
 
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Oh, it's a laugh a minute!

I'm hoping someone will set it to music. I can almost hear it now "Highest growth in agriculture 2005 to 2013, Angola 11%! Tra la!"

Wait 'till we get to a breakdown of balance of payments by sector and nation and watch the interest really pick up!
 
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Carl "Excel-Expert" Nixon

Either way, we can make the best of the situation eh? The world won't end (yet)
The day after planes wont fall out of the sky and the sun will rise as normal and we will get on with things. The UK has gone through much bigger changes and shrugged it off.

Which ever way the vote goes in 3 or 4 years time we will look back on all of this and think what was all the fuss about.

That is unless President Trump has nuked us and we all end up working as slaves for Trump inc.
 
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Scott-Copywriter

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I would counter that with we are the worlds 5th biggest economy. So unless we really muck things up, countries are going to want to trade with us and achieve favourable trading treaties. For example Germany, who basically control the EU these days, is not going to want to give up its access to the UK car market and will not be keen on tariffs. There is also nothing stopping the UK from maintaining its access to the EU free market by paying membership.

I would also add our GDP per capita is 27% higher than Europe's combined GDP per capita. Our GDP per capita is 39,500 euros to Europe's 28,700 euros.

There appears to be a billion and one ways to look at the numbers and they can be shaped to suit either side's needs.

We will not be given the same freedom of trade as we have now for one simple reason: if we leave the EU, and get the exact same favourable trade agreement as we had when we were in the EU, then other EU nations will start to wonder what the point is in being a member.

Countries leaving is a disaster for the EU. Restricting trade and making it more expensive is a drop in the ocean compared to the impact of other EU nations deciding to leave as well.

If anything, the EU will make an example of the UK to show other nations why it's a bad idea for them to leave too. The worst case scenario for the EU is the UK to become a shining example of additional growth and prosperity after we've left, so they will play hard-ball on everything.

Sure, we could access the single market like usual by joining the EEA, but we'd still have to contribute to the budget and still have to abide by most of the legislation, except this time we just wouldn't have a say.

As for trade deals, the EU is currently negotiating some of the world's largest trade deals with the world's largest economies, which we benefit from as members. With the EU having a GDP of $18.5 trillion (the world's largest), compared to our GDP of $2.9 trillion, the EU has considerably more leverage and bargaining power than we do on our own. They're worlds apart.
 
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Carl "Excel-Expert" Nixon

There are currently 4 countries that are in the EU free market but not in the EU (Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland) all trading without hindrance from any of the other countries - what is to prevent the UK doing this as well.

As I mentioned before we are a large economy that most of the other EU countries will want to continue to do business with. What would happen to Germany's car sector if it didnt have access to the UK market? (They sale a lot of VW's. Merc's, BMW's etc in to the UK). France sells a lot of food in to the UK so what would happen to their agricultural sectors? What about things like Airbus and other joint projects - Will the other EU countries want to see those deals collapse.

For any sort of retaliatory action to taken by the EU I believe a completely unanimous vote would be needed with a single veto vote sending the idea out of the door. For France or Germany to agree to take action they would be signing up for economic loss and possibly large job losses in their own countries. That is just two sectors from two countries.

The last thing the EU would need at this point would be to stir the referendum pot. In a survey carried out across Europe last year and repeated this year, over the half of the countries in the EU would call a similar referendum. In half of those countries the polls indicate that a vote to leave was likely. If another country calls a referendum will people vote to remain because they feel threatened the EU will retaliate, or will they vote against the aggressor (my guess is that it will be the later because they are a vastly more loyal to their country than they are Europe).

The domino effect is one that is not discussed very often. 55% of the French and 58% of Italians want their own referendums. At this point 48% of Italians, 41% of the French and 34% of the Germans would vote to leave the EU. To put this in to context when the UK referendum was announced less than 30% wanted to leave. With those numbers out there could the EU afford to cause more EU hatred and distrust.

BTW - If these countries vote to leave, where does that leave the UK if we remain?

A cant post links yet but the figures above are from an IPOS survey for the FT
 
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KM-Tiger

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For any sort of retaliatory action to taken by the EU I believe a completely unanimous vote would be needed with a single veto vote sending the idea out of the door. For France or Germany to agree to take action they would be signing up for economic loss and possibly large job losses in their own countries. That is just two sectors from two countries.
It would also be against WTO rules, and also against one of the articles of the Lisbon Treaty which requires the EU to be 'good neighbours'.
 
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Scott-Copywriter

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There are currently 4 countries that are in the EU free market but not in the EU (Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland) all trading without hindrance from any of the other countries - what is to prevent the UK doing this as well.

Nothing at all, but this boils down to the question of what is better for the UK: to stay as a member of the EU, or to leave and become a member of the EEA instead.

Within the EU, at least we have a vote and are able to heavily influence EU legislation due to our large population giving us strong leverage in the EU legislation process. Without that, we would still have to contribute to the EU budget, still have to abide by most of the EU laws, and still have to allow the free movement of goods and people (just as the countries you mentioned do), except we would no longer have a say in the legislation we have to abide by.

For Brexit supporters who claim we should "take back control of our country", I find that scenario a little odd.

As I mentioned before we are a large economy that most of the other EU countries will want to continue to do business with. What would happen to Germany's car sector if it didnt have access to the UK market? (They sale a lot of VW's. Merc's, BMW's etc in to the UK). France sells a lot of food in to the UK so what would happen to their agricultural sectors? What about things like Airbus and other joint projects - Will the other EU countries want to see those deals collapse.

For any sort of retaliatory action to taken by the EU I believe a completely unanimous vote would be needed with a single veto vote sending the idea out of the door. For France or Germany to agree to take action they would be signing up for economic loss and possibly large job losses in their own countries. That is just two sectors from two countries.

Retaliatory action is not necessarily something so transparent and obvious. Of course they won't try to pass decisions which are there with the intention of being detrimental to the UK. However, right now, the EU has the UK only in its best interests as a member and major EU economy. If we leave, that's suddenly no longer the case.

Conflicts will start to appear. Whilst the EU benefits overall from a stronger UK, the UK will also essentially become a trade competitor. To retain the cohesion of the EU, they also can't be seen to be giving favourable treatment to the UK over its own members. To be a member of something and contribute in certain ways, there has to be rewards. What message does it send to other EU nations if someone can leave and retain all the same rewards as members within the EU?

Don't get me wrong, it certainly leaves the EU in between a rock and a hard place. No path is without its downfalls, but the fact remains that the UK becoming a case study of heightened growth and prosperity after leaving is ultimately not good for the EU's self-preservation.

Of course we will be able to negotiate deals as many countries do depend on trade with us, but the question is whether such deals will be as open and effective as they are now. They will play hard-ball, as what's best for the UK, and what's best for the EU, will no longer be one and the same in many respects.

Sure, there's the EEA, but it's a similar situation now except with no say whatsoever in the legislation we have to abide by.

And all of this trade-off and economic uncertainty which inevitably scares away investment is for what, exactly? As members of the EU we currently have around 30 FTAs in force with other nations, around 20 more have been provisionally applied, and almost 30 more have been finalised and will come into force soon from around the world. We are a part of all of them.

This is all with the EU's massive bargaining power compared to our own individually. What exactly is the UK so desperate to do which we currently can't do in the UK which makes the economic impact of leaving worth the hit?
 
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Carl "Excel-Expert" Nixon

I believe if we are in the EAA we get a say on the laws and rules in the EAA. (I've been trying to confirm that for days but no where says we do or we dont). The 4 other countries dont seem to have anything to complain about and appear to be happy with their deals.

I dont see any of these battles you describe happening between the EU and Switzerland (who are a sizeable economy and do sizeable trade with the rest of the EU). I cant see any reason why the UK/EU relationship would be treated any different to the Swiss/EU relationship.

By its very nature trade is a two street with both sides gaining something. If you break the trade then both parties hurt - there is no real way of punishing one without punishing the other. It would be far from in the EU's interest to start a trade war with the UK because it would be just as damaging to its self.

I personally don't think the EU is remotely capable of getting in to a trade war with the UK because of its voting system. All remaining 27 would need to be in full agreement to take hostile action against the UK and as so many EU countries have serious trading going on with the UK I dont see that being achievable. Germany is never going to give up its car exports, France and Italy are never going to give up its food exports.

If by some extreme remote chance some dictatorial type figure managed to get the whole of the EU to turn on the UK - is that the sort of organisation that is right for the UK to even want to be a part of
 
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Gentlemen, you are arguing about nothing.

Nothing will happen.

If you vote to stay, nothing will happen. If you vote to leave, nothing will happen.

The millions of Brits in the rest EU will not be repatriated, the millions of rest-EU citizens in Britland will not be expelled, Nissan, Honda, BMW, Deutsche Bank, Blumberg, IBM and Microsoft will not up-sticks and leave, any more than every BP petrol station in Germany will be forced to close.

Our connections to Europe are now so deeply intertwined, that leaving in anything but name alone, would be totally impossible.

Like the loss of virginity, it is just not something you can cancel in retrospect, like a library membership card!
 
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Carl "Excel-Expert" Nixon

That is exactly what I'm expecting Byre.

The only negatives I'm expecting is a slow down in business at key points. I expect business to slow just after the referendum and again at the point where we separate about 2 years down the road (if we separate).

And I'm basing that on what happened after we voted in a coalition government. Everyone seemed to pause while they worked out how they should react. Eventually they just got on with it.

We may see a bit of wobbling on the stock markets and foreign exchange rates etc. But there will be no disasters, no walls going up etc
 
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Scott-Copywriter

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I believe if we are in the EAA we get a say on the laws and rules in the EAA. (I've been trying to confirm that for days but no where says we do or we dont). The 4 other countries dont seem to have anything to complain about and appear to be happy with their deals.

Hundreds of pieces of EU legislation have been integrated into EEA law. This is merely to ensure that the infrastructure and regulatory framework align between all parties for access to the single market.

If a piece of EU legislation is created, and it's a requirement for access to the single market, EEA members can't just choose whether to adopt it unless they want to forfeit access to the single market. There's a small voice, but in reality, far less power.

The fact remains though that if we leave the EU to join the EEA, there's still lots of legislation to abide by, still contributions to the EU budget which have to be made, and still the requirement to allow the free movement of goods, services and people into our country.

Little will change in those respects, so what exactly would we be leaving for? What bright, shining beacon of prosperity is there which the UK is currently unable to reach because of EU membership?

I dont see any of these battles you describe happening between the EU and Switzerland (who are a sizeable economy and do sizeable trade with the rest of the EU). I cant see any reason why the UK/EU relationship would be treated any different to the Swiss/EU relationship.

Because Switzerland was never a part of the EU in the first place. It's about what happens to a country after it leaves the EU, and if we do vote to leave in the referendum, we will be the first nation to ever withdraw from the European Union. Big difference.
 
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Carl "Excel-Expert" Nixon

It sounds like your reason for wanting to stay is out of fear of retaliation. Is that really a valid reason to stay? Do the British people want to be a part of a body that will beat it if it stands up for its self? I cant vote to stay out of fear of retaliation

Firstly being a part of the EEA is just one option the UK has on leaving the EU. We are more than capable of negotiating own treaties around the world that would give us far better deals than we can through Europe. Some trade treaties wont be as good but some will be much better.

If we dump EU laws we would be able to save our steel industry - we could nationalise it, we could invest in modernisation of our steel plants, we could give the steel industry tax breaks, we could remove the tax element on their energy bills. These are all things we are not allowed to do because of the EU (Italy, Germany and Belgium did this to save their steel industries and they had to reverse everything out).

We could react quicker to problems. The UK for some unknown reason voted against tariffs on Chinese steel - now considered a big mistake. It will take the EU years to fix that mistake. If we were outside the EU we could do as the US do and apply tariffs as our various sectors need them.

And that is just one industrial sector which would benefit form being outside of the EU today.

At the end of the day the EU is only 27 countries out of 196. If we lose out in the EU (which I cant see happening) we are lot more open to trade with 168 other countries.
 
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Scott-Copywriter

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Why's that then? How much will they be? The same? Less? More?

Despite lacking voting rights and full participation in the EU institutions, Norway must still make a sizeable contribution to the EU budget. Looking at its recent contributions, Norway pays €656m to the EU but gets back around €100m in science and research grants, which makes a per capita net contribution of €107.4. In contrast, Britain’s net contribution of around €9bn works out as €139 per capita.

Grants are a particularly interesting element of EU membership:

The UK is one of the largest recipients of research funding in the EU. Over the period 2007 – 2013 the UK received €8.8 billion out of a total of €107 billion expenditure on research, development and innovation in EU Member States, associated and third countries. This represents the fourth largest share in the EU.

In terms of funding awarded on a competitive basis in the period 2007 – 2013 (Framework Programme 7), the UK was the second largest recipient after Germany, securing €6.9 billion out of a total of €55.4 billion.

We pay a fair bit in, but we get a fair bit back as well, with a lot of useful grants going towards UK science, research and other things which are protected from Conservative austerity cuts.

Some of the EU budget also goes towards improving the infrastructure and economic framework of EU countries, which makes all countries more effective trading partners. With our annual combined trade with the EU at around £350-£380billion per year, which many British businesses depend on, this is quite handy for us.

If we take Norway's per capita payment as an example, we may pay around £2billion less per year, which is 0.5% of our annual trade with the EU and 0.1% of our annual GDP. Any uncertainty or change required in leaving the EU will wipe this saving out in a fraction of a second, and for what, exactly? The same free movement of goods and people, but with less control and a less favourable economic situation than we were in before which costs even more money and hits jobs and investment?

The UK has so far spent around £15million on keeping Julian Assange holed up in the Ecuadorian embassy. I can think of much better savings which don't risk damaging the UK economy for years to come.
 
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Carl "Excel-Expert" Nixon

No matter which way you cut and slice the numbers we pay in roughly twice as much as we get out in rebates and benefits. Even the official leave groups come to roughly the same ratio. But what we get in rebates, grants and infrastructure investment is far from set in stone.

Firstly take the rebate we get each year - this is basically a proportional share of the EU's surplus cash each year. We have zero control over how much surplus cash there is - all we have is an ability to veto to change how it is divided up. We have 7 poor countries waiting to join the EU who are going to need a lot of cash to bring them up to EU standard. That means the surplus pot is going to shrink considerably over the next 5-10 years and our rebate with it. If one of those eastern European countries goes bust then we may end up with no surplus to share out.

Secondly we get large grants for places like Wales and areas of Scotland as we are seen as economically deprived. These only run until 2020 so that may go as well. So on the tangible cash front I dont see our net contributions going anywhere but up. There is no possible scenario where our net contribution will go down.

If we leave the EU do you really think that £350-£380 billion in trade will just stop? Will BMW and VW stop selling cars in the UK? Will France kiss good bye to setting up Hinkley C?. It is utter nonsense to think it will vanish. If dont opt for the EAA solution we will loose a percentage but we will gain more than that in additional trade with the rest of the world.

If we look at the trading figures with the EU more carefully we can see operate at a deficit of around 10% i.e. we buy 10% more stuff from the EU than it buys from us. If for some reason a Trump style wall went up between us and Europe and all trading stopped, they would be the ones that would come off worse.

When it comes to grants for science, agriculture etc, what we musnt forget is that the EU is giving us our money back. This is not new money being introduced to the UK, it is being paid back to us. The EU is just a middle man taking a cut
 
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Chris Ashdown

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    From what I understand the EU does not have a trade agreement with the US and this has been the case for years yet we all trade together

    So what value are trade agreements and how many are there that make a big difference to our or others lives

    Singapore a minute country manages to remain separate yet it has a few miles of island no farming, Little industry yet survives by banking and trade alone, when it broke away from Malaysia in the 1960's every one thought it was a stupid act and would crash and burn in a couple of years

    Fear of the unknown brings out the worst in all people as proven by the actions of the government, well meaning at the start but then use every dirty trick to get their way in fact the only ones with the real power the government should have given the whole facts available to both sides and had the various departments making plans for either solution

    New Zealand Australia and many other countries live quite happily with relatively small populations in loose arrangements with other countries, we are not unique or insignificant either in or out.

    The real question is with the distress in the EU at the moment, poor control of the euro and many unemployed will the EU survive the next ten years either way, If Scotland can not agree with the rest of the UK then how do you expect the rest of the 27 countries to keep together and work for the whole, and where does the EU expand after Turkey


    Just my two penny worth
     
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    Carl "Excel-Expert" Nixon

    I believe there are trade deals between the EU and the US but we dont hear about them much. We also have the dreaded TIPP agreement on the horizon.

    The following I havent had a chance to fact check so if anyone knows better please step in and correct.

    If we go worst case scenario, the least favourable way of trading (and the way you end up trading if you have no agreements) is on the WTO model. This could be hugely damaging for the UK. For example one of the hard and fast rules seems that is often quoted is that there is an automatic 10% tariff on vehicle exports and imports - car prices in the UK would shoot up by 10% and places like the Nissan plant would become unviable overnight. If car prices shoot up I believe that takes the rate of inflation with it.
     
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    Chris Ashdown

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    The car makers have far more than 10% in their profit that they could easily pay the tariff and the uk cars would sell better as they would be the cheapest.. that's the problem nobody knows they just guess the worst effect that could happen.

    Would Japan for instance want to limit trade with the uk or \Korea etc
     
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    Carl "Excel-Expert" Nixon

    The car makers have far more than 10% in their profit that they could easily pay the tariff and the uk cars would sell better as they would be the cheapest.. that's the problem nobody knows they just guess the worst effect that could happen.

    Would Japan for instance want to limit trade with the uk or \Korea etc

    Do you really think that car markers are going to swallow a 10% hit out of the goodness of their hearts?
     
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    Carl "Excel-Expert" Nixon

    On the few numbers I have found on profit margins per car, they make far less than 10% per car on a straight car sale. It bumps up with option extras, finance deals etc, but the numbers I would suggest are less than 10%.
     
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    KM-Tiger

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    that's the problem nobody knows they just guess the worst effect that could happen.
    It's highly unlikely that tariffs would be applied to cars. The UK is Germany's biggest export market for cars so they will not want to compromise that.

    As is sometimes said, the CEOs of Mercedes, BMW, et al would beat down Frau Merkel's door ....
     
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    Carl "Excel-Expert" Nixon

    Total agree KM-Tiger. If we opt for the EAA route or some sort of trade deal there will be very little in the way of tariffs (if any). The Germans, French and Italians have real incentives to keep trading with us and will push things through from their end - they will certainly veto any tariff proposals.

    Tariffs would only be a an issue if we end up trading on the WTO model and that is the worst case scenario.
     
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