Who's Levelling Up?

[Ozzy]

So the Levelling Up is all in the news at the moment (some of you may recall the public consultation that a few here contributed input into that UKBF submitted).
I know it will mean nothing to some but it may mean much more to others - what does it mean for your business and the area you operate from?
You can read the white paper here;

 

[UKSBD]

Saw this earlier

https://twitter.com/x/status/1488790872414208000

Edit: from the Guardian - https://www.theguardian.com/inequal...nding-inequality-exposed-by-guardian-research

 

[Newchodge]

It means nothing to me in the north east.

 

[estwig]

I'm in the deepest South.....

Levelling up means they'll come after me, to pay for bus shelters in the North!

Bloody annoying it is!!!

 

[Ozzy]

Edit: from the Guardian

Although I feel I need to precede this comment that I agree there is inequality in the way the funds are being distributed; but I am always weary of headlines like that as the devil is in the detail.
How is the affluence of an area measured. I live in an area that could be considered affluent but I see so much hardship around me on the streets and in the town, inequality of wealth is also present on a macro level around towns.

It means nothing to me in the north east.

Does that mean it means nothing to your business, or means nothing to the North East (which is an area it is mean't to support and boost).

 

[Ozzy]

Bloody annoying it is!!!

Shocked reaction face as there isn't (yet) a Face/Palm emoji reaction. ?‍

 

[Newchodge]

Although I feel I need to precede this comment that I agree there is inequality in the way the funds are being distributed; but I am always weary of headlines like that as the devil is in the detail.
How is the affluence of an area measured. I live in an area that could be considered affluent but I see so much hardship around me on the streets and in the town, inequality of wealth is also present on a macro level around towns.


Does that mean it means nothing to your business, or means nothing to the North East (which is an area it is mean't to support and boost).

Giving the power to local authorities to produce improvements is great, but without funding it is meaningless.

 

[Newchodge]

Although I feel I need to precede this comment that I agree there is inequality in the way the funds are being distributed; but I am always weary of headlines like that as the devil is in the detail.
How is the affluence of an area measured. I live in an area that could be considered affluent but I see so much hardship around me on the streets and in the town, inequality of wealth is also present on a macro level around towns.


Does that mean it means nothing to your business, or means nothing to the North East (which is an area it is mean't to support and boost).

Reply to the first bit.

Every area has inequalities and poverty. Giving £100 per head to an area where there is 5% deprivation while giving £5 per head to an are where there is 95% deprivation is wrong. Note the figure is per head of population.

It is a bit like council tax. If 2 councils each need to raise £10,000 and one is in an affluent area where 95% of the houses are in the top band, the cost in each band is very much lower than in an area where 95% of the houses are in the bottom band. That ignores the reality that the poorer area has greater need for local authority funding and, almost certainly, lower business rate contribution.

 

[MarkOnline]

As a general thought, if I have to rely on the government to improve my lot by injecting money into the economy then I am of the opinion that I am going to be disappointed. No one is going to look out for me, least of all the government I decided a while ago that if I was to get ahead then it was solely my responsibility to get there. As Warren Buffet said " dont be reliant on the kindness of strangers" (or words to that effect) Putting a token few pounds into derived areas will do nothing to address the great divide in wealth inequality, ain't life a bitch!

 

[japancool]

So Leeds is the third largest metropolitan area in the UK, and yet I've heard nothing about our local area. HS2 to Leeds has been cancelled, so that ain't going to happen. Local people are moaning and griping about a potential expansion of Leeds/Bradford airport, so transport links aren't going to improve (don't get me started about NIMBYs).

Bus drivers are rude, transport is not accessible and doesn't run on time anyway. But it's all privatised, so how the government intends to improve that is anyone's guess.

There are roadworks everywhere that just make getting from A to B more complex than it needs to be.

The housing stock is ancient and a lot of it is BTL student properties. Those areas are not pleasant places.

I'm not convinced a local mayor is going to make anything better. Our local bunch of clowns have failed to get a tram system up and running for more than 20 years.

There is a shortage of affordable retail and storage properties. If you wanted to start an independent shop, you're pretty much restricted to the grottier end of town alongside the hairdressing salons and betting shops.

We don't have 5G coverage, but then so what? So I can get nothing done faster while waiting for a bus not to arrive so I can go to the train station to go the Manchester to fly to London?

Never mind levelling up, we haven't even got to the starter dungeon yet.

And what's so great about Manchester anyway? Is it because they have two Premier League teams?

 

[The Byre]

Germany has spent about €2 trillion in total supporting East Germany. This is mostly done via a 5.5% extra tax on payroll and corporation taxes.

So how about a similar thing - 5.5% added to London and the SE taxes to pay for infrastructure in the North and West and Wales?

 

[Ozzy]

So how about a similar thing - 5.5% added to London and the SE taxes to pay for infrastructure in the North and West and Wales?

Although I agree with this in principle, I can immediately see ways people would work around that to avoid the increased tax. Many of the super wealthy London workers live outside of London, and it's very easy for a company is be HQ'd somewhere else (RoI anyone?)

 

[estwig]

So how about a similar thing - 5.5% added to London and the SE taxes to pay for infrastructure in the North and West and Wales?

Yea I'm in, where do I send the cheque!

 

[The Byre]

Yea I'm in, where do I send the cheque!

Well, the Welsh have the lowest GDP per capita on the mainland, so just post it to -

The Welsh
Walesshire
Wales. (c/o Taffy)

Remember to ask for a receipt and their VAT number!

 

[The Byre]

Although I agree with this in principle, I can immediately see ways people would work around that to avoid the increased tax. Many of the super wealthy London workers live outside of London, and it's very easy for a company is be HQ'd somewhere else (RoI anyone?)

The 'Solidaritätszuschlag' was seen as a patriotic thing to do. One became proud to be German (for the first time since the war!)

In fact, I became so patriotic that I F'ed off to the UK (though TBH, not for that reason!)

 

[japancool]

Remember to ask for a receipt and their VAT number!

Is Wales above the VAT registration threshold?

 

[The Byre]

Good point! Probably not!

 

[IanSuth]

From what i can see - it will mean precisely zero as there is no new money just a new set of labels.

I am still unsure about metropolitan mayors unless they are getting rid of something else - an extra layer of bureaucracy helped no one ever and always costs.

I am lucky i live in the SE but more importantly i am in one of the few places where the bus company is largely council owned. The big boys try to muscle in every few years then give up because the service we have is better than they can provide, cheaper and on better rolling stock (free wifi and charging points on all buses)

Last time i stayed with friends in Marple which is decently well off I thought the transport was appalling, poor buses and the trains on the rail line to Manc Picadilly were like Bertie the bus had decided to be a train

 

[simon field]

Well, the Welsh have the lowest GDP per capita on the mainland, so just post it to -

The Welsh
Walesshire
Wales. (c/o Taffy)

Remember to ask for a receipt and their VAT number!

They’re not VAT Registered!

 

[DavidWH]

It means absolutely naff all.

Any money they will get, will be spent of pretty projects that provide zero benefit day to day.

Added to that, Manchester is getting the ULEZ, not just in the centre of Manchester, but the whole of Greater Manchester.

Pollution will be high, they turned one lane of the A580 into a bus lane, and built a guided bus lane from Atherton to it.

The park and ride I pass is empty. On my commute I barely see a bus.

Bolton Council got funding to add a cycle lane along the A6 from Westhoughton, but at the boundary with Salford what happens? It will end, so its a cycle lane to nowhere!

These are the kind of stupid ideas we'll get.

 

[estwig]

If I gotta send my hard-earned up North, to pay for bus stops and cycle lanes. Them guys should pay more for their homes, more if they want a builder, or their car fixed, or anything else that costs twice as much as down here.

That's levelling up!

 

[IanSuth]

If I gotta send my hard-earned up North, to pay for bus stops and cycle lanes. Them guys should pay more for their homes, more if they want a builder, or their car fixed, or anything else that costs twice as much as down here.

That's levelling up!

NO that is levelling down - but realistically if you spend money to try and level things then the spending of a bunch of gdp on the mechanism of levelling is introducing an inefficiency in the economy and therefore "on average" everyone is worse off as i dont believe "levelling" itself grows the economic output of the country in the short to medium term (up to 25 yrs min)

The hope is that those who go up feel their rise more than those moving down feel the pain of the drop

 

[japancool]

I'm not paying for cycle lanes. And I'm definitely not paying for pedestrianisation. That makes life for people like me much harder.

Disabled people inevitably get left behind on these things.

 

[simon field]

I'm not paying for cycle lanes. And I'm definitely not paying for pedestrianisation. That makes life for people like me much harder.

Disabled people inevitably get left behind on these things.

Are you going to withhold tax?

 

[japancool]

Are you going to withhold tax?

I shall write letters in protest.

 

[UKSBD]

The problem is one persons levelling up is another persons gentrification

Pump money in to an area to improve it then you find the people who live there can no longer afford to live there and the poor areas just move to a different place.

 

[Newchodge]

The problem is one persons levelling up is another persons gentrification

Pump money in to an area to improve it then you find the people who live there can no longer afford to live there and the poor areas just move to a different place.

How about if you 'pump money in' to improve the infrastructure and the housing. The local people get the jobs to carry out the work thereby improving their environment and their standard of living.

 

[UKSBD]

How about if you 'pump money in' to improve the infrastructure and the housing. The local people get the jobs to carry out the work thereby improving their environment and their standard of living.

Sounds great but improve the housing too much, rent goes up, poorer people are priced out.

What we need is a massive increase in government/council/community owned quality social housing, being built by the local people for the local people.

Housing that can't be sold of for quick profit and is run as a non profit scheme

 

[estwig]

What we need is a massive increase in government/council/community owned quality social housing, being built by the local people for the local people.

Housing that can't be sold of for quick profit and is run as a non profit scheme

Yea I'm all for this, try to help the youth get on the housing ladder.

It would undermine overall housing prices, which ain't a vote winner, the political will isn't there!

 

[thetiger2015]

It's just another excuse for a round of free cash to private companies.

Social housing is desperately needed but that doesn't generate profit for landlords. So, they'd get a clip round the ear for even trying to do something as horrific as undercutting private landlords to help the poorest.

Then they'll say something like 'well, you can always learn a new skill and get a better job' <<< Yeah, the jobs actually have to be in your area though don't they or commutable? There's no point living in Redcar, getting a skill as a Tech Dev, to find the nearest job is in Milton Keynes. Completely defeats the point of suggesting that areas can 'upskill' themselves to earn more money. You actually have to supply the job opportunities, to allow people to upskill and find work off the back of it. You need infrastructure investment, foreign investment, encourage large companies to set up multi skilled HQs in the North of England. No point in them building more warehouses, as that doesn't up skill the local area, it just creates more low paid jobs.

 

[NickGrogan]

How about if you 'pump money in' to improve the infrastructure and the housing. The local people get the jobs to carry out the work thereby improving their environment and their standard of living.

How do you legally exclude people from outside the local area from getting the jobs?

What do you do it if there aren't enough bricklayers in the area?

 

[NickGrogan]

It's just another excuse for a round of free cash to private companies.

Social housing is desperately needed but that doesn't generate profit for landlords. So, they'd get a clip round the ear for even trying to do something as horrific as undercutting private landlords to help the poorest.

Then they'll say something like 'well, you can always learn a new skill and get a better job' <<< Yeah, the jobs actually have to be in your area though don't they or commutable? There's no point living in Redcar, getting a skill as a Tech Dev, to find the nearest job is in Milton Keynes. Completely defeats the point of suggesting that areas can 'upskill' themselves to earn more money. You actually have to supply the job opportunities, to allow people to upskill and find work off the back of it. You need infrastructure investment, foreign investment, encourage large companies to set up multi skilled HQs in the North of England. No point in them building more warehouses, as that doesn't up skill the local area, it just creates more low paid jobs.

Many "tech" jobs are work from home now and are likely to stay that way.

Your Tech Dev working on your AWS/Google platform can be in Milton Keynes or Redcar as long as she's got a decent internet connection it doesn't matter.

 

[Ozzy]

How do you legally exclude people from outside the local area from getting the jobs?

What do you do it if there aren't enough bricklayers in the area?

My interpretation in an idealistic world has these in two camps.
You cannot really exclude people from outside the area, but the local authority can seek a preference to work with local firms for the delivery of the services - assuming big House Builder Co doesn't just come along and register as subsidiary in the area to get the contract. Assuming that doesn't happen, the local firms are far more likely to employ local people.

If there isn't enough bricklayers in the area though, nowt you can do about that other than look outside the area.

 

[Paul Norman]

It means nothing to me in the north east.

This.

The government will almost certainly fail to notice that there are people, and businesses, this far north.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

This all started in the Thatcher years with the introduction of the Poll Tax, later called the community charge. Councils were rewarded by how loyal they were to the tories. The Council I moved from, Wandsworth, got so much grant support that they actually paid money to the ratepayers instead of charging them. Cornwall, where I moved to ended up with one of the highest rates bills despite being one of the poorest counties in the country.

This undemocratic system has operated for years and has created massive discrepancies in local council funds. If democracy prevailed then each council would have the same amount to spend according to its population and unique needs. The UK does not have that system. The amount to educate a child in one area varies enormously from other areas. The same is true of everything from fixing potholes to care homes.

The same is true of health spending. When Cornwall NHS hit an £8 million debt a few years ago some researchers at Plymouth University showed that it would have been a £43 million surplus if Cornwall was allocated the same money as the rest of England. Compared to Scotland's health spending it would have been closer to £100 million surplus.

The EU recognised Cornwall's poverty and gave an EU funded grant of over £1 billion. Boris on his red bus tour before the referendum promised to continue to pay the grant. There have been a few very small payments but Cornwall is still waiting on over £900 million of promised money.

Meanwhile the. country has to compete for levelling up funds like prizes on an Eton College sports day.

 

[IanSuth]

What you need is more of what happened to my mum

After splitting with my father she ended up in a shelter then a small 2 bed council house, she met a guy and married him who was a roofer/brickie

A new housing estate was being built and instead of "affordable houses" which we all know are anything but, what the council and housing developer agreed was a road at the corner of the estate was designated for self build. The council wrote to everyone in social housing and told them about the plot and stated the price saying you could use up your "right to buy" allowance (for want of a better word) to go towards that land rather than your current house. You had to apply stating your skills, with her having experience with timesheets and payroll and him a roofer/brickie they were one of the 14 lucky families, they were helped to get mortgages to cover the materials costs and stayed in their council/HA houses whilst they built their new homes. After about 14 months they all moved in, the council/HA got to keep 14 properties they could let to others in need, 14 families had lovely new 3 bed semi's (many then extended them whilst still in the VAT holiday period), my brother learned the skills helping out that meant he is now a chippie whilst at the time he was working on an insurance call centre

They were not allowed to sell for a minimum of 5 years post completion (without a large financial penalty) but actually only 1 of the 14 did immediately they could

 

[IanSuth]

This.

The government will almost certainly fail to notice that there are people, and businesses, this far north.

Don't you realise the North starts in about Leamington Spa currently (well Coventry is after £20m anyway)

 

[UKSBD]

Don't you realise the North starts in about Leamington Spa currently (well Coventry is after £20m anyway)

They're even creating a new South Warwickshire area merging Stratford-on-Avon district and Warwick district because we don't want to be associated with those northerners in Rugby, Coventry, Nuneaton, etc. (Leamington is just about OK)

 

[IanSuth]

They're even creating a new South Warwickshire area merging Stratford-on-Avon district and Warwick district because we don't want to be associated with those northerners in Rugby, Coventry, Nuneaton, etc. (Leamington is just about OK)

Leamington is where all the Warwick (honestly not SE Cov) Uni students live

 

[UKSBD]

SW