What to do with a 'toxic' employee? (Very long post)

Blood Lust

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Seriously. It's patently apparent that you've never had to spend your own money on staff.

If you had, you would be viewing this differently. I fired two sales people last year within three months of joining. The problem wasn't the position or the management. It was the fact that they were rubbish at their job.

Regarding toxic employees. Again it's not necessarily someone else's fault it's the fact that they are just not nice people. Take the guy on the legal thread who blames the world for his own issues as a case in point. Nobody made him that way, he's just toxic.

Finally you really don't need to be "pointing out" employment issues to actual employers when you don't have one iota of experience of employing people yourself.

I didnt say I havent recruited or managed staff. Yes some people do have personality problems but if you check their references you usually find they have a history of it.

Does your product sell itself or do you employee staff to try and sell a product no one wants?

Have any previous staff been able to sell the product during this recession for a decent length of time?
 
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Blood Lust

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Qualified no, but can I do it yes. Put it this way if you were that able you would be doing it for yourself not somebody else. Qualifications are useless in the wrong hands

While I have a good paying job which I enjoy I'm from a poor background so I dont have the funds to set myself up in business just yet.

Experience does teach you stuff through trial and error. However unless you gain management qualifications there will be loads of stuff you simply arent aware of.
 
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Blood Lust

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Nope, have to disagree with that one. You can't be taught business.

How do you motivate staff?
How do you interview staff?
How do you decide your business strategy?
How do you promote?
Why is culture important?
How do you structure a business?
How do you plan, organise, command, control and coordinate?
How does Marketing work?
 
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internetspaceships

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I didnt say I havent recruited or managed staff. Yes some people do have personality problems but if you check their references you usually find they have a history of it.

Really? Well blow me down I never realised that. Think of all the hardship I could have saved myself.

Does your product sell itself or do you employee staff to try and sell a product no one wants?

So either I sell iPhones, or I sell people something that nobody wants eh? Is there no middle ground?


Have any previous staff been able to sell the product during this recession for a decent length of time?

Yes plenty of my staff have sold well. We grew rather well last year.
 
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WJP

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Here's a quick example from my experience. A friend of mine wanted to learn German. He spent years trying, with courses and all sorts. He got to be alright at it, by all accounts. He then had the opportunity to go and work in Italy for a year. He'd never spoken Italian before, and came back fluent. Being immersed in it and having to do it all for himself he learnt an awful lot faster.

I don't think I need to explain the analogy, do I?
 
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How do you motivate staff?
How do you interview staff?
How do you decide your business strategy?
How do you promote?
Why is culture important?
How do you structure a business?
How do you plan, organise, command, control and coordinate?
How does Marketing work?

Done all that and more successfully, sure haven't got everything right first time but that means I also know what and why certain things don't work - you won't get that in a classroom.
 
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Blood Lust

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Maybe there are things that I'm not aware of but when I do become aware of them then I get around them. Business is taught through experience not sitting in a classroom being taught by someone who has also never ran a business. I could learn all the theory of karate but it wouldn't make me a bloody ninja

I'm not trying to cause an argument and I'm quite sure if you did know about everything you would have no problems applying it.

What I'm trying to make you realise is that you've written the employee off as toxic when he might not be.

I dont work for the council and culture is one of the most important parts of a business. Its made up of your businesses equivelent of ideology, identity, laws, social norms etc. Its used to control your staff.
 
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R

Root 66 Woodshop

@Bloodlust,

In all seriousness, how can you even compare or ridicule smaller companies to large companies with regards to cutting corners?

I can guarantee you, large companies are just as bad at cutting corners as the smaller businesses out there, if not worse in some cases... Why? Because they have too many hands stirring the pot.

HR in some cases can also be a lot worse than managing thing's on your own, I myself have experience with working with 2 large PLC companies who did nothing but cut corners in order to save a few quid, yet with the smaller companies that I've worked with (and still do) I have found that they are by far the most efficient when it comes down to ensuring H&S, RIDDOR, COSHH and other necissary requirements in order to run a business.

When it come's down to staffing issues, I honestly believe it's got nothing to do with the employer's making a mistake when taking people on, but more so an issue with whom has been taken on, CV's are by far the worst documentation in the world when it comes to the history of a prospective employee, mainly because such employee's don't want new employer's to know about thier past, and change things around to suit themselves.

With regards to the OP: IF the woman in question feels that it's a requirement to remove the toxic member of staff, then it is her right to do so, he's fleeced enough out of her as it is. End of the day, that's what the probationary period is all about, she's bent over backwards in order to help the fella out, and he's blatantly took the mick... it is irrelevant as to how many people have been removed from the company... that's just business.
 
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WJP

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While I have a good paying job which I enjoy I'm from a poor background so I dont have the funds to set myself up in business just yet

I believe the buzzword for it (which you'll probably know better than I as you've done a degree in business) is "bootstrapping". It's what I did with my first business. Hard work but probably one of the most rewarding and educational things I have done in business thus far. Really forces you to focus on margins, business model, the works.
 
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Blood Lust

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@Bloodlust,

1 - I can guarantee you, large companies are just as bad at cutting corners as the smaller businesses out there, if not worse in some cases... Why? Because they have too many hands stirring the pot.

2 - HR in some cases can also be a lot worse than managing thing's on your own, I myself have experience with working with 2 large PLC companies who did nothing but cut corners in order to save a few quid, yet with the smaller companies that I've worked with (and still do) I have found that they are by far the most efficient when it comes down to ensuring H&S, RIDDOR, COSHH and other necissary requirements in order to run a business.

3 - When it come's down to staffing issues, I honestly believe it's got nothing to do with the employer's making a mistake when taking people on, but more so an issue with whom has been taken on, CV's are by far the worst documentation in the world when it comes to the history of a prospective employee, mainly because such employee's don't want new employer's to know about thier past, and change things around to suit themselves.

4 - With regards to the OP: IF the woman in question feels that it's a requirement to remove the toxic member of staff, then it is her right to do so, he's fleeced enough out of her as it is. End of the day, that's what the probationary period is all about, she's bent over backwards in order to help the fella out, and he's blatantly took the mick... it is irrelevant as to how many people have been removed from the company... that's just business.

Ok I've numbered things to make it easier for me to answer.

1 - Large companies dont normally have problems with their business structure or decentralisation. The reason being is if a business cant organise itself properly the chances of it becoming a large business are remote.

2 - Some small businesses do have a manager with HR skills the argument was that most dont.

3 - I worked at a company for a year and was sacked for bullying. I bullied the cow that tried bullying me to such a degree they ended up having to let me go haha. I remove that job from my CV because a lot of employers only see out of negative eyes and make assumptions.

4 - We still dont know what the service this company offers is. If they are selling Nokia mobile phones you'd expect the commission to be low. If they are selling property 20k is low.
 
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WJP

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1 - Large companies dont normally have problems with their business structure or decentralisation. The reason being is if a business cant organise itself properly the chances of it becoming a large business are remote.

As someone who, as well as running businesses myself, is currently writing a piece of research on regulation (and so have spent an awful lot of time going into companies and looking at how they're structured and how they operate), I think you're underestimating the possibility for a company to have problems of this kind precisely because it is a large company. There are problems that only crop up on a serious level once a certain size is achieved.


3 - I worked at a company for a year and was sacked for bullying. I bullied the cow that tried bullying me to such a degree they ended up having to let me go haha. I remove that job from my CV because a lot of employers only see out of negative eyes and make assumptions.

If I were an employer I'd definitely look with negative eyes at someone who was fired for bullying other members of staff. If you've done a business degree you should be even more aware than other people that there are procedures to follow if you feel like you're being bullied at work.
 
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Blood Lust

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Yes but until you have the experience of running a business then all you are quoting is text book nonsense, could I do a degree? I'm 99% sure I could. Could you run my businesses? If the answer is yes then put your money where your mouth is and go and do it.
Do you work for the private sector? How old are you?

I'm qualified in Strategic Management but I've not held the position of director at a business before (it isnt my business). That doesnt mean I'm not a competant manager it just means someone else makes the final decision on where the business is going. My job is getting it there.

I work in the private sector and I'm 30.
 
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Root 66 Woodshop

Ok I've numbered things to make it easier for me to answer.

1 - Large companies dont normally have problems with their business structure or decentralisation. The reason being is if a business cant organise itself properly the chances of it becoming a large business are remote.

2 - Some small businesses do have a manager with HR skills the argument was that most dont.

3 - I worked at a company for a year and was sacked for bullying. I bullied the cow that tried bullying me to such a degree they ended up having to let me go haha. I remove that job from my CV because a lot of employers only see out of negative eyes and make assumptions.

4 - We still dont know what the service this company offers is. If they are selling Nokia mobile phones you'd expect the commission to be low. If they are selling property 20k is low.

1. Totally incorrect, sorry but you're sadly mistaken. The larger the company the more chance of an issue arrising, mainly because as I said previously there are usually to many hands stirring the pot.

Granted, these issues are resolved quicker, but it doesn't deter the fact that the issues are there in the first place.

2. There are companies out there that use outside sourced HR, this gives the Directors/Manager the piece of mind that they're covered thoroughly, the smaller companies that don't outsource HR tend to manage perfectly without.

3. My point being proven. Despite the fact that you were being bullied, it doesn't matter, you've removed a piece of your work history which tell's people more information about you than you want them to actually know. I.E. You're dishonest.

4. To be quite frank, I find it irrelevant as to what the company sells. The main issue here is that someone has taken on a role, knowing full well what the basic was and what the bonuses would have been, if he isn't performing enough to earn the bonuses, what right does that person think they have to request said bonuses?

The reason why I find it totally irrelevant is because throughout the UK, salaries, bonuses, wages etc etc differ greatly, especially when it comes to town's, cities and villages.

Look at how local council's are ran for instance. They've gone and installed an excellent "time consuming" way of placing orders for stock.

1. Someone ring's up a supplier to get a price for, let's say a couple of keys.
2. That information is then passed through as an internal order
3. the order is then sent to the supervisor/manager of the first person to ensure that they have permission to place the order and to have it approved.
4. the order is then passed through to be inputted onto the system
5. the order is then sent to the supplier with an out-sourced order number

All this to order a couple of keys?

I actually had a fella stood around my shop waiting for one key to be ordered through their system for over an hour and a half... Why? because their Manager was in a meeting, no one had informed anyone of said meeting, then it was lunch time!
 
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internetspaceships

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Firstly, thanks for staying on the thread Blood, and thanks guys for not allowing this to degenerate into anything personal and silly.

Secondly Blood, you mentioned earlier that you can often tell from someone's employment history that they were toxic, but most of these people would remove the details that point to this when presenting to a potential employer wouldn't they?

Like you did.

As such this removes the validity of that point.
 
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Blood Lust

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As someone who, as well as running businesses myself, is currently writing a piece of research on regulation (and so have spent an awful lot of time going into companies and looking at how they're structured and how they operate), I think you're underestimating the possibility for a company to have problems of this kind precisely because it is a large company. There are problems that only crop up on a serious level once a certain size is achieved.

If I were an employer I'd definitely look with negative eyes at someone who was fired for bullying other members of staff. If you've done a business degree you should be even more aware than other people that there are procedures to follow if you feel like you're being bullied at work.

Well we all know we are supposed to follow the correct procedures but I guarentee you that there are people out there capable of provoking the same response out of you.
 
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KidsBeeHappy

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1 - Large companies dont normally have problems with their business structure or decentralisation. The reason being is if a business cant organise itself properly the chances of it becoming a large business are remote.

Oh my word!! No big big businesses have never gone bankrupt have they, LOL. Ever heard of the Royal Bank of Scotland - no? maybe it's beneath your radar it being a small business - but I believe that business structure is causing a little bit of an issue for them.

2 - Some small businesses do have a manager with HR skills the argument was that most dont.

That's right. Many small business therefore outsource this work to employment services companies, who are able to provide constant, informed, uptodate, relevant and more importantly fully trained knowledgeable advise - as opposed to having a person who works in HR becasuse their nice and they get on with folk.

3 - I worked at a company for a year and was sacked for bullying. I bullied the cow that tried bullying me to such a degree they ended up having to let me go haha. I remove that job from my CV because a lot of employers only see out of negative eyes and make assumptions.

I would just love to have you working for my company - bizarrely you sound proud of that statement - I wouldn't be if I were you. But then, i'm guessing that i'm older than you. And I also have the guts to start up a business without having a stack of cash, or a escape route/back up plan. Despite the fact that I also have a young family.

But then that's why people like us are actually running small businesses, and you're here sitting boasting of the fact that you're an unmanageable employee who bullies colleagues, but apparently knows all there is to know about business.

As the old saying goes - put up or shut up.
 
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Blood Lust

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Oh my word!! No big big businesses have never gone bankrupt have they, LOL. Ever heard of the Royal Bank of Scotland - no? maybe it's beneath your radar it being a small business - but I believe that business structure is causing a little bit of an issue for them.

That's right. Many small business therefore outsource this work to employment services companies, who are able to provide constant, informed, uptodate, relevant and more importantly fully trained knowledgeable advise - as opposed to having a person who works in HR becasuse their nice and they get on with folk.

I would just love to have you working for my company - bizarrely you sound proud of that statement - I wouldn't be if I were you. But then, i'm guessing that i'm older than you. And I also have the guts to start up a business without having a stack of cash, or a escape route/back up plan. Despite the fact that I also have a young family.

But then that's why people like us are actually running small businesses, and you're here sitting boasting of the fact that you're an unmanageable employee who bullies colleagues, but apparently knows all there is to know about business.

As the old saying goes - put up or shut up.

Are you and the other two going to try and troll me all afternoon or can we get back to the discussion?
 
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KidsBeeHappy

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I'm qualified in Strategic Management but I've not held the position of director at a business before (it isnt my business). That doesnt mean I'm not a competant manager it just means someone else makes the final decision on where the business is going. My job is getting it there.

I work in the private sector and I'm 30.

And that is the nuts and bolts of it all - Someone else makes the decision, someone else is accountable, someone else takes the risk. You carry on getting paid regardless.

There is a world of a difference between manager and director.
 
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WJP

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It's not trolling, it's a genuine discussion about business approaches and a chance for people to share their knowledge. It's what this forum's for.

As an aside, what did you tell more recent employers when they asked why there was a year gap on your CV?
 
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KidsBeeHappy

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Are you and the other two going to try and troll me all afternoon or can we get back to the discussion?

OK. As a small business owner, who has had and sold several businesses, then I would say to the OP that employment law is a virtual lose:lose situation for aan employer regardless of size.

Employment laws are such that over 80% of employment tribunals get settled in the claimants favour - and usually, not because the claimant has an actual case worth winning, but simply because the employer has usually breach some tiny bit of the regulations - some of which [used to] lead to an automatic "guilty" assumption.

Note the 80% - this means that it is a problem suffered equally by large and small business. it is not specific to small businesses, although because of the structure of SME's it does have a more significant impact on the employers business.

My advice to OP is to take professional advice before acting, make sure that all the T&C, statements of employments, contracts and everyother dotty piece of paperwork is completed perfectly. And then do what you are advised to do.

And if that pill is bitter to swallow, then keep remembering its a lot less bitter than a tribunal.
 
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Blood Lust

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It's not trolling, it's a genuine discussion about business approaches and a chance for people to share their knowledge. It's what this forum's for.

As an aside, what did you tell more recent employers when they asked why there was a year gap on your CV?

It was years ago and there is no gap on my CV. I have worked in two jobs since with me still being at the second.

The first job was in sales and they gave me the job during the interview. They didnt ask for references or about my past employment they just asked me why I thought I could do sales. They liked what I had to say. I quit when they made me become employed instead of self-employed.

The second job (where I am now) I got head hunted for. I know one of the directors from my past who had heard I was looking for a job. They approached me about the management position which I accepted.
 
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Blood Lust

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How is there not? Ah, did you change the dates?

I'm still amazed that anyone would ever take anyone on without checking references. Madness.

I know crazy isnt it?

The interview lasted 30 seconds. Hello its ...... isnt it? So why do you think you can do sales? Great come in on Monday and we'll see what you're like.

It was actually the best company I've ever worked at in my life. I was taking home £500-£1000 a week as self-employed. Then they went and changed how they work.
 
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Consistency

A friend of mine has a business and last October she employed a business development/operations person. The deal on the table was £16,500 pa, monthly bonus based on weekly profits (£200 at the time of interview), a mobile phone and after 3-6 month probationary period, a car. After negotiations she agreed to £17k, monthly bonus as he told her that he had been offered another job at £20 and a car. She told him that as the bonuses stood, he was looking at £19,500 already and when he comes in and gets more work, the bonuses would be unlimited. He promised to bring extra work to the company by using contacts from previous jobs and assured her that he could increase the business. He started work. She supplied him with a laptop (his choice against a PC), laptop bag and a portfolio case. She printed up some business cards for him herself. He was ready to go.

He was asked to get his car insurance upgraded for business use, this cost £50 admin/alteration to policy fee and his premium per month was around £35, which she covered (although she should only have covered the difference in premium. Then, after only two weeks, he started to complain that he couldn't afford his car and that it would have to go back to the loan company and wondered how soon he could have the company car. She told him that it had been agreed that he would have a probationary period first but to be helpful and add an asset to the company, she bought the car and of course covered the insurance. He had a courtesy car supplied by the dealer in the interim. By mid November he was driving a company car after only one month of being employed.

Next, he wanted her to pay for his mobile phone contract as he had the number for years and couldn't really afford the monthly cost. She refused this as there was a company phone that she was paying the rental on anyway and, the number had been with the company for 10 years and was quoted on printed matter, website, etc. She told him to pass his phone to his partner who was on Pay and go. He wasn't happy about that. It has come to light since that he has actually given up his own contract phone.

OK, so then he wanted a contribution towards a suit. She offered him £50 towards a suit even though she told him that in her opinion there was nothing wrong with the ones he had.

Then, he booked holidays for the following year and a couple of days for the current year. She told him to take more days in the current year as he would lose them but he said that he didn't want to take any more days as they didn't fit in with his partner's. After some negotiating, she agreed to carry 5 days over into the next holiday year but said that after that there would be no carrying over as he had 12 months to take them.

She then received an email in early December saying that he was getting chronic back pain and could he have another chair. He said he was off work for months the last time he had it (prior employment) and didn't want this to happen again. She suggested he look at gadgets that offer lumbar support but he told her it was pain across his shoulders not lumbar. She carried out a VDU check list with him and it was determined that he needed to raise his laptop so that his screen was at eye level so a monitor stand, keyboard and mouse was issued to make the laptop into a makeshift PC while he was in the office. She also noticed that he was sitting at an angle and therefore his right arm was being stretched further than his left (cause of shoulder pain?). She recommended that he sit straight facing the desk. It was also noted that as he is quite tall, his chair wasn't supporting his legs under the knee area.Even though she had not agreed to a new chair, she then got an email from him saying that he had been to Staples and had found the chair he wanted and could he order it at £160 +VAT. This being a possible claim and H&S issue she wanted to avoid, gave him permission. Miraculously, his back became better it seemed almost overnight.

Although he has a good attendance record, he started to take time off to go to funerals (3 in as many weeks). After the second, he was told that he would have to book the days as holidays as the deceased weren't family. She would allow him time out as long as he came back to work but he argued that they were friends of his partner’s and that she couldn't have been left in such a distraught manner. He pointed out that he worked late sometimes and worked through lunch sometimes (which he does) and though it was his choice, felt he put in his hours. She said she would let him have the two days back and asked how he was going to prove that he had made up his hours - he didn't know. In future any funeral days allowed would have to be close family. Strangely, 'Auntie Pat' died the week after (fourth funeral).

Since he started with the company, the bonus levels had dropped and he wasn't getting the £200 a month he was expecting. He said that she had promised this at interview and that it was part of the package. She said that bonuses are not guaranteed and to go and get more work and he would have in excess of £200 if he did what he promised. However, she agreed to give him a minimum of £200 a month bonus but when the bonuses reached £200 plus, she said she would deduct the amounts 'loaned' and once it had been repaid he would see the full benefit. He moaned that he was always on Ops (Operations) and couldn't get out but she told him that Ops would be covered while he was out of the office and not to worry about it.

He was given a £500 bonus at Christmas along with the other staff.

After 3 months, she carried out a review. She asked him if he liked his work, he said he loved it. When asked if there was anything he didn't like he said 'the money'. She told him that companies were offering pay decreases and that he should consider himself lucky that he had a job at all in the current climate (she had taken him off Jobseekers). Although he had brought a new contract in early on, it had dried up. He brought this up and said that he had brought this contract in and the company had gained £4000 and surely that had covered his costs already. She remarked that turnover was not profit. New work was revived from old customers but the level of business had not improved so she gave him an additional 3 month probation and to contact those clients he had approached before as a follow up and ask if they were ready to move forward.

Nearly done!

5 months on, he pulled her to one side and again said that he couldn't afford the pay he was on. She said she was sorry to hear that but there was going to be no more money until his got more work in like he promised at interview, which he denied saying. At the end of the day, why would she have taken him on if he hadn’t made promises to improve the business?. It’s hardly likely that she said 'yes, come and join our company and maintain the level of business we are at now and I will give you this, that and that! He wasn't happy that she had kept him on an extended probationary period and that he was always on Ops and nothing to give the clients (she has recently ordered new business cards as he thought the ones she printed were inferior, bought desk pads as he had used up the old ones, pens, sticky pads etc., all at great expense She told him not to make that an excuse for not going to see clients as they could be offered at another meeting (waiting for them to be printed etc..) There was some talk of looking at different areas of work that were not already covered by the company. He said he would need software (a database), she said you have Access on your laptop, why not use that.

Little by little he is gnawing at her asking for (and usually getting) more and more. She is now in a quandary. He is good at Ops and does contact a lot of people on the development side but little or nothing is being gained by it and, like his predecessors, seems reluctant to go out and get the business that he was employed to do. She is not wanting to go though the whole process of advertising, interviewing, selecting, training etc again as this will be the third time in two years. She feels that he is constantly begging for something and giving little in return for her 'investments'. Any idiot can see he is making a mug of her but if you were to ask him, he would say he is putting a great deal of effort in.

She has made a decision that she is not going to give in to any more demands and that she will ask him for a decision as to whether he is going to stay and accept what he is currently getting or go. Either way, she needs to know.

Simple question - what do you think she should do - let him go or give him one more chance to prove himself? :|

I have not read the responses and there are a lot of them but I have simply read this one.

Your friend has allowed herself to be made a mug of. I am surprised she is still in business.

That said there are always employees out there willing to take the pee and they leave a trail of no confidence for future employees.

He has had his chances and had more than he deserved. He was given far too much too quickly. The typical overconvidence is an underperformer.

Good luck anyway.
 
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Consistency

Thankyou for your wisdom :D :D


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