What should I do with 60K??

pdhmobile

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Jan 7, 2011
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Hello everyone,

I need a business person perspective on my dilemma. I have managed to save up 60k through various avenues and I was planning to pay off my mortgage, get a lesser job and take it easy, I'm 44 and my wife is 41.

Im having second thoughts on if thats the best use of the money? We have a second house we rent out and I was thinking of maybe using the 60k to get another one or maybe two houses. Maybe not to rent out but to buy, renovate and sell on.

Whats youru thoughts on the best way to use the money?
 
Jun 26, 2017
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Buy me an Audi RS6? Thanks


Seriously though - property investment can be rewarding, but it’s not for everyone and it’s a lot of money to lose if you don’t know what you’re doing.

Paying off your mortgage early is a great investment, and if you want to get an easier job and take it easy, then why not? Or if buying another couple of buy to lets would allow you to do that also then crack on.
 
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Alan

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  • Aug 16, 2011
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    If you are into property - the best thing to do from tax perspective is to improve the property you live in then sell on, if you don't mind living in a building site ( or a caravan).

    Because if it is your primary property there is no capital gains or income tax on the value added.

    So - sell you current home and buy something that will go up in value if modified, e.g. a small run down house on a larger plot, make sure your £60k can cover the improvement costs, or borrow a bit more on your domestic mortgage.
     
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    Alan

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  • Aug 16, 2011
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    Or if buying another couple of buy to lets would allow you to do that also then crack on.

    Isn't the era of buy to let over ( except maybe in some niche sectors / areas )?
    • Punitive stamp duty.
    • Yield lower than borrowing costs.
    • No tax relief on finance.
    • No Council Tax tax relief during void period.
    • Legislation ever trending to tenants favour.
    • Unfavorable Capital Gains tax when you sell


    Add that all up and then the pain of dealing with properties or the cost if you outsource to agents, makes it far from attractive, to me?
     
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    sjackson1984

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    Jun 3, 2020
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    Personally I would stick to your original plan and pay off your mortgage. I can only dream of how much of an effect paying your mortgage off will have on your life.

    Alternatively, tweak your plan a little...pay your mortgage off and carry on working the same job for a year or two and save what would have been the mortgage payments to give you a lump sum in a couple of years.
     
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    Jun 26, 2017
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    Isn't the era of buy to let over ( except maybe in some niche sectors / areas )?
    • Punitive stamp duty.
    • Yield lower than borrowing costs.
    • No tax relief on finance.
    • No Council Tax tax relief during void period.
    • Legislation ever trending to tenants favour.
    • Unfavorable Capital Gains tax when you sell


    Add that all up and then the pain of dealing with properties or the cost if you outsource to agents, makes it far from attractive, to me?

    I sold all my buy to let places a few years back for pretty much that reason. It was way more hassle than it was worth - for me.

    It’s different for everyone, and I mentioned it as an option as the OP already has BTL and that was a suggestion they were considering. There are still plenty of landlords out there turning substantial profits from buy to let investing.
     
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    LanceUk

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    Jan 8, 2018
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    I'm not entirely sure of the rules, but if you form a ltd company and run your buy to let business through that, apart form the legislation trending towards the tenant, the financial disincentives that apply to private investors don't apply.. Maybe someone in the know can explain as I only hear snippets about this when someone calls into the business hour on a well known london radio station.

    An accountant I know said I was criminal for having 60% equitiy in my house, but I am glad I did and didn't leverage.. At present interest rates though, you will never find borrowing too much cheaper and you aren't saving too much in paying off your house. Of course, CV has made thngs a lot trickier, though. So whether you want a business, property investment or pay off your house at the moment comes down to a lifestyle choice.

    Say you are paying £2K/mo mortgage and you would have to keep your job if you bought property. You could pay off your mortgage, save the 2K a month and after 2 years have 4/5 of it and we should be a lot clearer about where the economy is going. The flip side is, of course, you can probably now get some property bargains and in 2 years, the market may recover faster than the build up of cash.

    Also, don't forget, at any time, you can remortgage your house.. (although you may pay more interest)..
     
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    Scottishgifts4u

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    I came into some money and the first thing I did was pay my mortgage off.

    It probably wasn’t the best financial decision I’ve made but by God it felt good.

    One thing I did was put the money I was paying for the mortgage into a low risk share account (after all your used to not having it).

    Within a few years you’ll have a reasonable fund to do what you want with. In my case I moved up the housing ladder by paying cash for the house.
     
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    gpietersz

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    I came into some money and the first thing I did was pay my mortgage off.

    Paying debt off almost always gives you a better risk adjusted return than anything else by way of investments in financial markets or putting money in bansk because you are the right side of the spread. Obviously higher interest debt more so (e.g. if you have overdrafts or unpaid credit cards or similar) but even mortgages are better paid off. You could always remortgage later if you needed debt financing for something.
     
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    gpietersz

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    An accountant I know said I was criminal for having 60% equitiy in my house, but I am glad I did and didn't leverage

    The implication being that you should have had less equity and invested the money somewhere?

    That is an example of something I have long said, which is that accountants often have poor understanding of how to make investment decisions.
     
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    Maxwell83

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    Sometimes the best investment is the one you feel most comfortable with.

    For some, they would comfortably use the money for something high risk/high potential return. For others, doing that would make them lose sleep and fret constantly. For some people, a bigger return isn't worth the worry.

    I have a very low appetite for risk, and like my money in 'boring' places because I don't worry about them - pensions & property. My brother trades forex and ******-currency - I tried it and its not for me.
     
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    gpietersz

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    My brother trades forex and ******-currency - I tried it and its not for me.

    That is not investment, its speculation, more like gambling (although the odds are not rigged against you by the house so its fair bets and skill plays a role - more like playing poker against skilled opponents than roulette).
     
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    LanceUk

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    Both can be investments; FX Futures, carry trades and the like are reasonable and can be risk managed; Same for FX Options and forwards. Spot, of course, is more difficult and the cash required v. risk is too much.
    ****** is much harder and correlations are not quite there yet.. But I know a hedge fund starting up and the principals are doing OK so far - volatiltiy is what a lot of prop traders make their money on.. And arbitrage opportunities are sky high.. though it is still a wild west and I am not going to dabble in it, yet. Goldman also sent out a note stating they would not recommend it as part of an investment strategy to their wealth clients (I think). Who am I to disagree?
     
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    Jun 26, 2017
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    Both can be investments; FX Futures, carry trades and the like are reasonable and can be risk managed; Same for FX Options and forwards. Spot, of course, is more difficult and the cash required v. risk is too much.
    ****** is much harder and correlations are not quite there yet.. But I know a hedge fund starting up and the principals are doing OK so far - volatiltiy is what a lot of prop traders make their money on.. And arbitrage opportunities are sky high.. though it is still a wild west and I am not going to dabble in it, yet. Goldman also sent out a note stating they would not recommend it as part of an investment strategy to their wealth clients (I think). Who am I to disagree?

    I think the distinction @gpietersz is trying to make is the difference between investing (long term) and trading (short term)


    Edit: Goldman won’t recommend ****** because it’s trash
     
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    LanceUk

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    Prop trading is nothing more than very short term investing. It is no more betting than someone buying and holding - in fact (having worked for a short time in the algo trading space), I would say it is less betting.. although short sellers of TSLA shorting it 6 months ago may disagree.

    The point I was making, which admittedly I was being too subtle, was that the hedge fund manager is making money for his investors (into the fund).. So (at the moment), his investors who pile cash in have a healthy return on their cash. The traders are working the short term volatility to build the longer term returns.

    Though, I agree... Crytpo at the moment is the wild west and I am not entertaining it even though I know of one person who, even at current prices has a return in the thousands of percent with Bitcoin (he bought very early and held - betting or investing?).

    With FX Options, Futures and not so much forwards, they are investments just like equity equivalents.. Carry trades even more so.. Yes, it is more trading, but I also call retail investors who dabble in the stock markets trading.. they will adjust their portfolio as the prices and risks move.
     
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    ExoPaul

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    I personally would avoid anything house-related for this year or even next year, simply because the housing market is in a complete mess over what will happen. There is a chance of you buying a house and because of unemployment, social distancing, business administrations and so on, that houses may not sell, which then leads to big discounting.
    You might get a house, spend £10K doing it up for sale, and then making a £15K loss on it.
    You have to remember that not only are no houses selling in the UK, but people wanting to sell will be getting keen to move on and sell them, and estate agents are going to need immediate commissions to survive, so there is going to be a lot of pressure to sell, sell, sell, and if the buyer market is not really there as people are not wanting to invest when there are dangers of second waves of COVID-19 and other risks (plus the memory of struggling financially during Lockdown), then estate agents are going to price lower and push home sellers to drop prices, to get the market moving again.

    Rental is slightly different but still risky. I believe that rentals will rise as more and more people need to rent rather than buy due to all the Coronavirus risks, as well as more unemployment, big job security issues with a lot of industries, and the lower amount of mortgages being signed off due to banks loaded with bailout debts and suspended debt repayments.
    As demand rises for rental, rental prices may increase, but if house prices drop in value, you may end up losing as much money in the value of the house as you are making each month from the profit margins of the rental. In other worse, buy a house for £100K, have a 40K mortgage, make £500/month rent but lose some of that in regular letting costs. And then the housing market collapses and 20% discounts. That is a £80K house value on a £40K mortgage, so you need to keep renting that house for at least 5+ years or more to make any form of profit from it.

    Of course, house prices may not drop much, mortgage rates may not rise if the banks don't increase interest rates, etc, but you have to ask yourself, is it worth risking all that money and ending up a few years down the line with only £40K of the £60K left over?

    If it were me, I would just pay off the mortgage with around £30-£40K of it, leaving a nestegg in the bank for a rainy day. With a lower mortgage repayment you could put that extra cash straight back into the savings, work for another 5 years or so, and then retire long before you are 50, with a nice amount of savings, a bigger pension pot, and a mortgage so low or even paid off you have no major expense.
     
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    DPC

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    Jun 12, 2020
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    I personally would avoid anything house-related for this year or even next year, simply because the housing market is in a complete mess over what will happen. There is a chance of you buying a house and because of unemployment, social distancing, business administrations and so on, that houses may not sell, which then leads to big discounting.
    You might get a house, spend £10K doing it up for sale, and then making a £15K loss on it.
    You have to remember that not only are no houses selling in the UK, but people wanting to sell will be getting keen to move on and sell them, and estate agents are going to need immediate commissions to survive, so there is going to be a lot of pressure to sell, sell, sell, and if the buyer market is not really there as people are not wanting to invest when there are dangers of second waves of COVID-19 and other risks (plus the memory of struggling financially during Lockdown), then estate agents are going to price lower and push home sellers to drop prices, to get the market moving again.

    Rental is slightly different but still risky. I believe that rentals will rise as more and more people need to rent rather than buy due to all the Coronavirus risks, as well as more unemployment, big job security issues with a lot of industries, and the lower amount of mortgages being signed off due to banks loaded with bailout debts and suspended debt repayments.
    As demand rises for rental, rental prices may increase, but if house prices drop in value, you may end up losing as much money in the value of the house as you are making each month from the profit margins of the rental. In other worse, buy a house for £100K, have a 40K mortgage, make £500/month rent but lose some of that in regular letting costs. And then the housing market collapses and 20% discounts. That is a £80K house value on a £40K mortgage, so you need to keep renting that house for at least 5+ years or more to make any form of profit from it.

    Of course, house prices may not drop much, mortgage rates may not rise if the banks don't increase interest rates, etc, but you have to ask yourself, is it worth risking all that money and ending up a few years down the line with only £40K of the £60K left over?

    If it were me, I would just pay off the mortgage with around £30-£40K of it, leaving a nestegg in the bank for a rainy day. With a lower mortgage repayment you could put that extra cash straight back into the savings, work for another 5 years or so, and then retire long before you are 50, with a nice amount of savings, a bigger pension pot, and a mortgage so low or even paid off you have no major expense.

    I think this makes sense. I have an offer on a house I am selling now and the agent is pushing for me to take the price offered (which is close to what I want) as he thinks selling prices will drop by some way in the short/medium term.

    I think cash is king here. You could sit on the cash as there will be opportunities arise as there is always opportunity in adversity, or pay off your mortgage knowing you can always remortgage if you need to take some cash out in the future
     
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    SillyBill

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    Prices not far off all time highs still with interest rates at zilch. The boom in property has been as a result of lower and lower interest rates over the entire economic cycle (since the 70s) and the proliferation of two earner mortgages (more leverage = higher price) over the same period as dual income households became the norm. Then just when this decades long bull market was running out of steam to keep it pumped and primed (to win elections) they introduced help-to-buy (a mortgage ontop of a mortgage basically to allow more leverage). That last one was a telling gov. admission that prices had been manipulated as much as possible and they were working harder and harder to keep air in the bubble. For house prices to do well over the next 30-40 years (as they have over the course of this cycle) you'd basically need the cycle to end in -15% interest rates from here (yes, minus) and for the multiple limit guidance for earnings to borrowings when taking out a mortgage to be lifted. And then banks to make commercial decisions to offer silly mortgages at 7-10 multiples of salary (that would be the equivalent leverage increase we've had from the 70s until now). That is the reality of the investment because nothing else can drive the market up but people borrowing more and interest rates going down. There is no further regulatory appetite to dilute the control measured put in place to prevent another 08/09 and interest rates are not going to minus rates beyond a token -0.1% or something. Vast majority will of course be fooled by inflation from here on though as nominal prices continue to increase yet in real terms they become poorer, I expect significant under-performance relative to other asset classes as former drivers maxed out.

    I had a mate who held out for a price (bought peak bubble) on his house that meant he "walked away at break even". 10 years later...I mean where do you even start educating... 10 years compounded inflation meant he'd lost a bundle in real terms. I bought a house in 2017 (since sold) that was cheaper adjusted for inflation (but nominally tens of thousands more expensive) than it was when it sold last in 2003. I wouldn't be surprised if the owner thought he was making a good capital profit (BTL selling up).
     
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