Websites, how much do you expect to pay?

Thought I'd ask this question as there seems to be a huge variation on what people charge and pay for websites. So as a new or small business who thinks, we need a website - what do you expect to pay?

After consulting with web designers/developers does how close or far away from the actual price were you?

And finally... What would appeal most to you, paying your site off in one go, installments or only having a monthly fee?

This is kind of out of interest on my part but I think it will be interesting to see how people view the value of the website and whether they end up being right. Theres a massive variation in costs between developers and lots of people don't see the value behind websites.
 
No more than £1200 for me, would expect a really nice but basic site for this (5 page/ no blog/ no ecommerce/basic-moderate SEO).

M.

That's pretty interesting, have you paid that before or is it just a guess? Or is this what people around you have paid? Guessing your a Joiner going by the username?

A intregated photoshopping service would be good.

What do you mean by this? Ability to change things on the site? Change the look of things?
 
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Dagz

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I think asking how much you'd expect to pay for a website is like saying how much would you expect to pay for a car isn't it? Depends how good it needs to be and what your budget is. My budget was pretty much £0 so I learnt to make my own. If I'd paid for it, I can't imagine anyone could possibly charge less than £500 now I've seen how much work goes into it, including SEO stuff that is.
 
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woodss

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At least two people on here with their signatures offering websites for less than £300 ... re-skinning WordPress isn't "building a website".

Choose two from the below:
* Cheap
* Fast
* Quality
and you won't get the third.

There is only one way you can get a decent, well thought-out website for £300 and that is if the company or individual is making a massive loss on the project.

Do you honestly believe that you can adequately research and implement the goals of the business in question, come up with a relevant and eyecatching design, then implement it accordingly for £300?

If that takes you a day, you're doing it wrong.
If it takes you a week, at 8 hours a day you're charging £7.50 an hour and you're still doing it wrong because after tax you'll be at minimum wage, so what's the point? That's no living!

Why would you charge something so low? To get a foot in the door? Please. Talk about devaluing your own service.
 
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seanheather

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At least two people on here with their signatures offering websites for less than £300 ... re-skinning WordPress isn't "building a website".

Choose two from the below:
* Cheap
* Fast
* Quality
and you won't get the third.

There is only one way you can get a decent, well thought-out website for £300 and that is if the company or individual is making a massive loss on the project.

Do you honestly believe that you can adequately research and implement the goals of the business in question, come up with a relevant and eyecatching design, then implement it accordingly for £300?

If that takes you a day, you're doing it wrong.
If it takes you a week, at 8 hours a day you're charging £7.50 an hour and you're still doing it wrong because after tax you'll be at minimum wage, so what's the point? That's no living!

Why would you charge something so low? To get a foot in the door? Please. Talk about devaluing your own service.

I agree

It's all about the quality though isn't it, if a company can charge £300 for a 6 page website then something, somewhere is going to suffer, whether it be the quality of the work, or the pay check of the designer. I'm going to go with the former.
 
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I think asking how much you'd expect to pay for a website is like saying how much would you expect to pay for a car isn't it? Depends how good it needs to be and what your budget is. My budget was pretty much £0 so I learnt to make my own. If I'd paid for it, I can't imagine anyone could possibly charge less than £500 now I've seen how much work goes into it, including SEO stuff that is.

It's more to get an idea of how people value their websites. Whether at first glance people realize what goes into it and where the value really comes from. It's meant to be an open question, I'm just wondering if the price people first think of is what they get. There are a lot of people who'll price their services that low so they'll get the business from the people who aren't convinced to spend more than they thought they'd have to.

At least two people on here with their signatures offering websites for less than £300 ... re-skinning WordPress isn't "building a website".

Choose two from the below:
* Cheap
* Fast
* Quality
and you won't get the third.

There is only one way you can get a decent, well thought-out website for £300 and that is if the company or individual is making a massive loss on the project.

Do you honestly believe that you can adequately research and implement the goals of the business in question, come up with a relevant and eyecatching design, then implement it accordingly for £300?

If that takes you a day, you're doing it wrong.
If it takes you a week, at 8 hours a day you're charging £7.50 an hour and you're still doing it wrong because after tax you'll be at minimum wage, so what's the point? That's no living!

Why would you charge something so low? To get a foot in the door? Please. Talk about devaluing your own service.

You clearly don't realize the £300 product targets a different person than whatever you're offering. I don't provide SEO, and I don't provide content. I can "build" a £300 WordPress website because instead of telling the client if they want their site to do x then I'll have to spend x amount of hours coding to give them it, I just install a plugin.

I think you'll also find most of the people doing sites this cheap are students, or just individuals. It probably isn't how they make their living, so doing it cheap isn't really a problem. It is however a problem for you, because you'll need to do more work to convince people that you're service is better. It's because of this problem that I don't want to set up as a freelancer like you who will have to keep dealing with people who want websites cheaper and cheaper.

I believe with website builders like SquareSpacewhere the building of a website falls down to a few clicks and picking some colours the value of actually building a website is only going to keep falling. You don't really need to code these days, so whats the point trying to sell it? Your value comes from creating a design that will work and bring people in - but then you have to convince someone that this design is better than a template from SquareSpaceor somewhere else. Will they really be convinced when that template was free and your design is £1000? So how can you keep going charging several thousands for a product that can be built for a fraction of that?

My cheap WordPress site way is definitely not the answer... I won't pretend it is, thats why it's not a permanent thing. People go to web developers because they can do something that that person can't. It won't be long until they can easily do it themselves though, have you seen how easy a website is to design on SquareSpace? Whats to stop a graphic designer who knows good design but has no knowledge of building a website to just start selling sites from SquareSpace? Nothing! Think about how many web developers/designers you already know and have to compete with, think about how many more you will have in only couple of years.

More and more people are going to need websites, true, but will they need web developers as well when they can just do it themselves? Not so much. The need for websites goes up, but the need to employ a web developer to build it goes down... Yet the number of web developers goes up.

This is my crack pot theory anyway, and it's why I don't plan to go join a studio or set up as a freelancer.
 
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unet

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Its a bit like " how long is this piece of string"

The internet is still like brain surgery to a lot of businesses and SEO, web design, content is like another language.

You can charge £100 to one customer and it was a hard sell and the next customer you can offer the same thing and charge £1000, and he will bite your hand off and hand over the cheque.
 
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woodss

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That's kind of irresponsible though - or maybe that's a strong word.

You're offering a business a cheap website just "because you can". You don't understand how to build functionality in, because you can just install a plugin.

That's great for the client until something goes wrong - if you don't understand what you've given them, how can you provide support?

From your point of view you're entering a potential minefield because you're not capable of supporting the work you're selling, essentially leaving the client high and dry.

From the clients point of view, their business website could be down, they won't have an adequate developer to sort it out, and they turn to a developer who CAN sort it out and think they're being ripped off when the developer tries to charge a lot more than they're expecting, thanks to you and your prices devaluing the work. This has the effect of giving freelancers a bad name.

You say yourself you're not interested in setting up a professional studio or something. You're the online equivalent of a guy going around putting plumbing or electricity cables into a house on the cheap with zero responsibility when things go wrong.

For what it's worth, I think you're ignorant of the industry and the people in it. Who do you think develops these "Plugins" that you use for functionality? People like me. Except I don't build plugins for people, I build bespoke functionality which performs actual business tasks, not just something shoehorned to fit.

There is a whole world of difference between installing a calendar on WordPress and say, creating an ordering system for an e-commerce website which then integrates back and forth with Sage.

Your argument about people being able to do it by themselves is completely wrong by the way. A simple Wordpress website, perhaps, but a full booking system? Who, running a hotel for example, is going to spend their time learning how to do it, integrating it with their website to facilitate online bookings?

It's false economics.

They could spend months figuring it out for themselves and end up with something insecure and flawed, or they could hire a freelancer for a month or two, spend about 5 grand and have a top of the line, bespoke solution tailored exactly to their business needs, with someone on-hand who can support it if something crops up.

I dare you to do that for 300 quid.

Just as an aside (edit), I don't have to deal with people wanting websites "cheaper and cheaper". Most clients see value in what they're wanting to create and so after spending time researching, they're happy to pay since they know the work will pay for itself in the long term. Usually people who have established businesses, or those who have made seriously good startup plans and know exactly what they're after.

It doesn't help though, that some people think they can get bespoke functionality super quick and cheap just because some student thinks they can do it for beer money. The amount of people I've dealt with who have been sold up the garden path and ended up not being able to speak to their developer when the shizzle hits the fan is absolutely unreal.
 
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accountancyextra

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Interesting thread.....

Think of it another way, am I paying you depending upon how long it takes to write code (or install a wordpress plug in) or am I paying you for your expertise in creating me an online marketing tool?

To me, great design is much more than just making a site look "pretty". It's about knowing what should be included on a homepage (and where). where is the best place to put the shopping cart button, what pages should I be including, how to get the best results from the "above/ below the fold" issue...etc, etc.

I'm much more willing to pay for that expertise
 
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That's kind of irresponsible though - or maybe that's a strong word.

You're offering a business a cheap website just "because you can". You don't understand how to build functionality in, because you can just install a plugin.

That's great for the client until something goes wrong - if you don't understand what you've given them, how can you provide support?

From your point of view you're entering a potential minefield because you're not capable of supporting the work you're selling, essentially leaving the client high and dry.

From the clients point of view, their business website could be down, they won't have an adequate developer to sort it out, and they turn to a developer who CAN sort it out and think they're being ripped off when the developer tries to charge a lot more than they're expecting, thanks to you and your prices devaluing the work. This has the effect of giving freelancers a bad name.

You say yourself you're not interested in setting up a professional studio or something. You're the online equivalent of a guy going around putting plumbing or electricity cables into a house on the cheap with zero responsibility when things go wrong.

For what it's worth, I think you're ignorant of the industry and the people in it. Who do you think develops these "Plugins" that you use for functionality? People like me. Except I don't build plugins for people, I build bespoke functionality which performs actual business tasks, not just something shoehorned to fit.

There is a whole world of difference between installing a calendar on WordPress and say, creating an ordering system for an e-commerce website which then integrates back and forth with Sage.

Your argument about people being able to do it by themselves is completely wrong by the way. A simple Wordpress website, perhaps, but a full booking system? Who, running a hotel for example, is going to spend their time learning how to do it, integrating it with their website to facilitate online bookings?

It's false economics.

They could spend months figuring it out for themselves and end up with something insecure and flawed, or they could hire a freelancer for a month or two, spend about 5 grand and have a top of the line, bespoke solution tailored exactly to their business needs, with someone on-hand who can support it if something crops up.

I dare you to do that for 300 quid.

Just as an aside (edit), I don't have to deal with people wanting websites "cheaper and cheaper". Most clients see value in what they're wanting to create and so after spending time researching, they're happy to pay since they know the work will pay for itself in the long term. Usually people who have established businesses, or those who have made seriously good startup plans and know exactly what they're after.

It doesn't help though, that some people think they can get bespoke functionality super quick and cheap just because some student thinks they can do it for beer money. The amount of people I've dealt with who have been sold up the garden path and ended up not being able to speak to their developer when the shizzle hits the fan is absolutely unreal.

So you've basically wrote this on the assumption I don't know anything. Which is completely wrong, so thanks for that. You say on your site you built your first website in 1997? I built my first website in 2002 I think, so you have 5 years on me? Difference is I was 11. So 9 years ago an 11 year old could build their own website, think what an 11 year can do now!

If required I will code a full site from scratch, but if it's not necessary then I just suggest WordPress, because otherwise I would be ripping them off. For the sites I build under this offer it's mostly brochure/information websites, so it's fine. When a client needs extra functionality there is 9/10 a plugin for it that works fine. Should i say oh no, sorry, you need to pay me £500 for that? If a plugin doesn't exist and I can build a custom plugin for them, and have done.

When things go wrong with a plugin I go to the website behind it, where other people have likely had the same problem and the developer has released a patch. I update the plugin and it's sorted. If theres a problem with your "plugins" you will spend hours fixing it (Keep in mind it's your poor coding that caused the bug), then send the client a fat invoice for the time spent fixing your mistake.

You call me irresponsible for leaving people high and dry, which I don't do, ever - Though i can see your point, other people might do. You sell people things they don't need, how is that responsible?

The nice thing about writing code is that your computer usually has a copy and paste function, so replicating this code is really simple. So when a developer builds that bespoke booking system and sage eCommerce stuff they can just take that code and reuse it, maybe with some alterations for the specific task. Is it fair to charge each client the full cost to develop that software when really you could just replicate and reuse it? No, no it's not.

I pointed out SquareSpace earlier, it's systems like this that are becoming more and more popular. They let you just add these features to your website without having to know anything about them. Is that a problem when it goes wrong? No - Because that feature is run from one central piece of software, you update/fix that and suddenly all of those sites that developed the bug have been fixed. This is a better solution than going round each site you made the mistake on and charging them for the hours spent fixing each installation? Better for the client at least.

I don't want to join a studio because then i'll be working in the same way as you. Which i honestly believe is the wrong way. The job of a web developer didn't exist 20 years ago, whats to say that it will in another 20 years? All the easy stuff can be replicated, so that puts anyone who just sticks to the basics out of a job. But if the easy stuff can be replicated, so can the harder stuff. In the end only the people who REALLY know what they're doing will have the job. Look at web development courses right now, most of the ones around here still teach you to use tables! How do those graduates compete?

I'm 20 years old and I can already do everything you can do and more (I'm assuming, but thats ok because insulting assumptions are ok now). I also still have a year and a half left of my Computing Science degree. Is that not worrying? It should be, because only this semester have i started learning ANYTHING to do with web development, so everything else is self taught.
 
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DesignerNick

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I think it all boils down to the client and their budget.

It may be all well and good trying to charge an electrician who just wants to have a simple website that says what he can do, where he can do it and how to book with him that ranks well for his keywords thousands for a website when a small 5 page brochure website will do him just fine.

I personally like to code my own little CMS for brochure websites which means I know exactly what code is where, which function does what and where it does it. It might sound stupid but it is actually sometimes quicker to do it this way than it is to install wordpress, hack wordpress, design a template for wordpress etc.

Doing it from scratch means I know the CSS code, the HTML and the PHP like the back of my hand so if something doesn't work it can be fixed.

If it was a sales company that needed a bespoke marketing system that linked into API's and other databases then of course it would need a lot of custom programming but what is the need in overselling something?

Fair enough if you can develop but there are a lot of people who can install Wordpress or a basic e-Commerce script who call themselves developers / designers.
 
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woodss

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So by your own admission you have been doing it since you were 11 years old. Great. I was developing software on my ZX Spectrum when I was 9 mate, using Your Sinclair as a basis for learning from their printed code. Ah memories. :)

For your information, 20 years ago, the "web" didn't exist - which is probably why no-one developed for it. The internet did, however. The 20th Anniversary of the first actual website will be on August 6th this year. Diary it :)

Since you're only 20, and still at University I presume you've not got any actual agency experience either. Well done. Deploying pre-built CMS's using pre-built plugins is certainly preferable to an actual career in web development....

From your post, we have also established that:

a) you can do anything I can do, if not more, despite having less experience.
b) you understand everything about the industry despite having zero commercial experience of it.
c) you still think that web development is a dying commodity, despite being unable to explain exactly who is going to develop the modules and plugins you use.

Well done - you sound like one of those students I was talking about and your arrogance and ignorance only reinforces that belief.
 
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c) you still think that web development is a dying commodity, despite being unable to explain exactly who is going to develop the modules and plugins you use.

At the lower end, web development is a dying commodity. When I need a quick site building I'll install WP myself and grab a theme from woothemes.com or elegantthemes.com... or tell one of my outsourced staff to spend a morning building the site to completion.

£300 designers are going to be the first ones to go to the wall as more and more people wise up to how easy it actually is to build a low quality site, or a cookie cutter WP site. 99% of people who come across one of my WP blogs with a theme from the sites above are not going to realise its not unique... its just going to look like a reasonably well designed blog.

More companies outsourcing the work to India & Philippines is going to further widen the gulf between the crap designs and the real stuff.

At this point I can't see myself ever spending below £2000 on a design again - if its less than that then it needed a quick WP install for now... if its more then it needed a pro to custom code a backend etc and that will never be replaced.
 
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So by your own admission you have been doing it since you were 11 years old. Great. I was developing software on my ZX Spectrum when I was 9 mate, using Your Sinclair as a basis for learning from their printed code. Ah memories. :)

For your information, 20 years ago, the "web" didn't exist - which is probably why no-one developed for it. The internet did, however. The 20th Anniversary of the first actual website will be on August 6th this year. Diary it :)

That was my point, 20 years ago a web developer didn't exist because there was no need for one. Thanks for explaining my point further?

Since you're only 20, and still at University I presume you've not got any actual agency experience either. Well done. Deploying pre-built CMS's using pre-built plugins is certainly preferable to an actual career in web development....

From your post, we have also established that:

a) you can do anything I can do, if not more, despite having less experience.
b) you understand everything about the industry despite having zero commercial experience of it.
c) you still think that web development is a dying commodity, despite being unable to explain exactly who is going to develop the modules and plugins you use.

Like I said I don't really want to go join an agency/studio because I can see how they work and I don't think it's the best way of doing it. Which I've been explaining. I could be wrong, of course, and I don't mind if someone wants to challenge me on it... But you haven't really.

a) Theres skill, and theres experience. You could probably sell your inefficient service at a higher price because you have the experience of doing it, so yeah ok.. you win on experience.

b) The "web" is only 20 years old as you said, yet developers are still trying to use the same business model as they did when they started out. How can this continue to work when the cost of building a website continues to fall. You also have people who have taken the same experience you have and created solutions like SquareSpace to take that knowledge and put it behind the mouse click of someone who knows nothing.

c) I already explained this, or tried to. In my opinion, the people who are building these services to try and make web development easier, these and the people who will survive. You will still have web developers but not as many, so people who stick to basics (Or the £300 website, as pointed out by JohnnyCash) are not going to survive. Even people above that will find it hard. Unless you really know what your doing then I think the future will be difficult.

Look at cars, they were complicated and expensive when they came about - built by humans, then the car companies realized they were clever enough to build robots to do the work instead, the number of humans involved is reduced and the price of the car has fallen. The same idea can be applied to other things, and is happening to web development.


Well done - you sound like one of those students I was talking about and your arrogance and ignorance only reinforces that belief.

You sound like someone who's set in their ways and refuses to believe theres a better way of doing things. I won't say well done, because thats pretty unfortunate for you.


At the lower end, web development is a dying commodity. When I need a quick site building I'll install WP myself and grab a theme from woothemes.com or elegantthemes.com... or tell one of my outsourced staff to spend a morning building the site to completion.

£300 designers are going to be the first ones to go to the wall as more and more people wise up to how easy it actually is to build a low quality site, or a cookie cutter WP site. 99% of people who come across one of my WP blogs with a theme from the sites above are not going to realise its not unique... its just going to look like a reasonably well designed blog.

More companies outsourcing the work to India & Philippines is going to further widen the gulf between the crap designs and the real stuff.

Exactly, when it comes to small websites there is already an easier way of doing it. This same idea can be applied to more complicated websites though, the way of building websites is constantly evolving and becoming easier. The only reason people still run at web developers with money is because they don't understand it, but what happens when they do?
 
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dedwardp

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The only reason people still run at web developers with money is because they don't understand it, but what happens when they do?

But then who is to say that they will?

It still takes time to learn about it and to understand it and, unless you are particularly interested in doing it yourself, most people will still probably continue to behave as you say.
 
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Anyone have any thoughts on using Square Space for an ecommerce site. Looking to create a news blog but have some customised work done as well. Anyone used Square space or have any thoughts?

Oh you mean your not going to go with Woodss £3000 blog package :p? Square space does have a blog feature but I don't know how well it works. It might be worth look at something like Tumblr for a blog since it's a bit more social and nicer to add on to an existing site than a whole new website like you would with SquareSpace.

Also to bring up the plumber analogy from earlier, you pay your plumber to install your pipes not to hand craft them.


But then who is to say that they will?

It still takes time to learn about it and to understand it and, unless you are particularly interested in doing it yourself, most people will still probably continue to behave as you say.

Because if you look at the way things are going it is becoming easier to build a website, you can do it without the programming knowledge. So if you continue going on hoping it won't get easier or people won't discover these services then what will you do if they do find out? I'm not saying everyones going to know how to program, but services come along like square space that allows the user to get the same end result without knowing the programming all the time.
 
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NextPoint

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You can't really compare solutions for a cheap website to what an experienced web developer can offer. The demand for web developers will not disappear either - it's true that new solutions are appearing that help people get started with a basic website more easily, but this isn't really the type of work that is best suited to an experienced developer.

Plugins for Wordpress are all very good until you need them to do something they can't - then you need someone to write the upgrades. Quality of code is also another issue - it can make the difference between 5 minutes and 5 days doing something; a good developer with lots of experience will know how to write code that is maintainable that will save time and money on future maintenance - something that is worth paying for in the short term.

You can't really compare a 5 page brochure website to a social media platform like Facebook or an e-commerce platform like eBay. So although there will be less of a demand at the bottom end of the market for basic websites, there will always be a growing demand at the higher end of the market where new technologies and demands are emerging where there are no off the shelf or easy solutions available. If you can prove to me that you can build an equivalent of Facebook or eBay with a Wordpress plugin, I'll eat my hat!
 
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T

TotallySport

the problem IMO is people don't know what there is and don't know how to use it, in which case they go to YellowDuck and YellowDuck will fall inline with whats is standardly out there, people that know what there is and know what they want, and either know what they can do with it, or know of a better way to do something and can afford it will go to steve.

(comment Steve and Yellowduck are not direct reference to the posters but the types of business models they represent)

There are so many points in this one topic I simply haven't got the time or patience to go through them all.
 
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You can't really compare solutions for a cheap website to what an experienced web developer can offer. The demand for web developers will not disappear either - it's true that new solutions are appearing that help people get started with a basic website more easily, but this isn't really the type of work that is best suited to an experienced developer.

I agree the demand for websites is only going to increase, but at the same time the cost of building a website will only decrease, because it'll only become easier.

Plugins for Wordpress are all very good until you need them to do something they can't - then you need someone to write the upgrades. Quality of code is also another issue - it can make the difference between 5 minutes and 5 days doing something; a good developer with lots of experience will know how to write code that is maintainable that will save time and money on future maintenance - something that is worth paying for in the short term.

The quality is an issue, of course. Though, would you not agree that if the same experienced programmer created one system full of quality coding then used that on many websites then the quality of those websites would be higher than one programmer starting all over again for each website. It means you can easily patch the one system to correct all of those websites, whilst easily adding new things on top of the quality coding.

You can't really compare a 5 page brochure website to a social media platform like Facebook or an e-commerce platform like eBay. So although there will be less of a demand at the bottom end of the market for basic websites, there will always be a growing demand at the higher end of the market where new technologies and demands are emerging where there are no off the shelf or easy solutions available. If you can prove to me that you can build an equivalent of Facebook or eBay with a Wordpress plugin, I'll eat my hat!

True, at the higher end there will probably always be a need for something completely bespoke, but when you look at how many websites require that in relation to all of the websites that will ever be built... What market would you rather be in?
 
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True, at the higher end there will probably always be a need for something completely bespoke, but when you look at how many websites require that in relation to all of the websites that will ever be built... What market would you rather be in?

The higher end one for sure. Its both higher paying and more sustainable.

But most designers have no choice - anyone can read an html for dummies book and start designing sites for £50... it takes skill and artistic ability (the latter of which you can't really learn I don't think) to be able to do it at teh other end of the scale.
 
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The higher end one for sure. Its both higher paying and more sustainable.

But most designers have no choice - anyone can read an html for dummies book and start designing sites for £50... it takes skill and artistic ability (the latter of which you can't really learn I don't think) to be able to do it at teh other end of the scale.

Ok fair enough. I'd agree I don't want to be in the low end operating like I do right now. Though I'd rather be in charge of a company like SquareSpace than be working on high end websites.
 
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NextPoint

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Ok fair enough. I'd agree I don't want to be in the low end operating like I do right now. Though I'd rather be in charge of a company like SquareSpace than be working on high end websites.
Even if you were running a company like SquareSpace, you would face the same problem - any type of programming is expensive because it's all based on time. Your ability to charge cheaper prices for basic websites comes down to being able to spread your development and support costs across lots of users who subscribe for a small monthly fee - just like lots of people who use one server on shared hosting. There will always be a point when users outgrow these types of systems because they require something unique that you can't develop for them - e.g.:

* salary of a developer is £25k
* and it takes one month to develop a feature (£25k/12 = development cost of £2,083)
* that only two people benefit from who pay you £10 per month each - it will take you (i.e. your return is £20 per month)

It would take you over 8 years to recover your development costs - and that's not including your employers NI, equipment expenses, training or customer support. This example shows that although off the shelf solutions can only be good for things that are a common requirement - as soon as a client deviates from this, they have to pay for all of the time their solution takes.

Examples of bespoke requirements could be anything from a full system to a Facebook app designed for a specific purpose

There is room for cheap developers and experienced pros in the market, but the demand for software/web developers will not disappear - and by web developer, I don't mean someone who can install a plugin, but someone who knows how to write software systems :D.
 
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what a fun argument ;)

and what misleading notions...
the simple reality is that the internet is not becoming a dead-end route for developers - the nature of use is changing and so too will client requirements...

yes, it is easier now to put up your own website - but the expectation of what it needs to be / the requirements for SEO etc. mean that you get the same value as you did for a bad home built one of 5 years ago - i.e. it is easier to look better - but you need to do that to stand still, not move forward.

the more complex the internet becomes, the more sophisticated will be the needs of the websites being developed - from mashups to APIs, bespoke code to business processes integrating on and off-line... And there is a finite ability to grow the automation process, so beyond a certain point there will always be the need to develop bespoke. The minute a website moves out of the norm into anything specific to a business and its processes you can not automate the generation of that website - all that happens (which we see a lot of already) is that businesses start to change their processes / business models to fit the available software - pushing them backwards in growth / standing still

There will always be scope for companies / individuals selling cheap solutions to clients - up to the client to make a deliberate decision if it is right for them - however in reality this doesn't really upset the market - nor will it ever make them much money!

Alasdair
 
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Even if you were running a company like SquareSpace, you would face the same problem - any type of programming is expensive because it's all based on time. Your ability to charge cheaper prices for basic websites comes down to being able to spread your development and support costs across lots of users who subscribe for a small monthly fee - just like lots of people who use one server on shared hosting. There will always be a point when users outgrow these types of systems because they require something unique that you can't develop for them - e.g.:

* salary of a developer is £25k
* and it takes one month to develop a feature (£25k/12 = development cost of £2,083)
* that only two people benefit from who pay you £10 per month each - it will take you (i.e. your return is £20 per month)

It would take you over 8 years to recover your development costs - and that's not including your employers NI, equipment expenses, training or customer support. This example shows that although off the shelf solutions can only be good for things that are a common requirement - as soon as a client deviates from this, they have to pay for all of the time their solution takes.

Examples of bespoke requirements could be anything from a full system to a Facebook app designed for a specific purpose

There is room for cheap developers and experienced pros in the market, but the demand for software/web developers will not disappear - and by web developer, I don't mean someone who can install a plugin, but someone who knows how to write software systems :D.

A studio has a small group of developers, on that 25k salary. So you give them a few websites to build each month and charge a pile for each. So you spend £2,083 a month building a website. You could get them to work on one more secure and central system that runs 100s/1000s websites per month.

So you could spend the £2,083 one month developing a feature, you then sell that feature for £10 a month... £120 per year, from one person, scale to 100 sites and it's £12,000 per year. You would want more than 100 sites though clearly...

It would be hard to reach the scale you need, but once you're there you have a better business than a studio working on a couple of sites a month on more of a fixed capacity. I guess it's turning it into a product that can be reproduced and distributed rather than a service.
 
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what a fun argument ;)

and what misleading notions...
the simple reality is that the internet is not becoming a dead-end route for developers - the nature of use is changing and so too will client requirements...

yes, it is easier now to put up your own website - but the expectation of what it needs to be / the requirements for SEO etc. mean that you get the same value as you did for a bad home built one of 5 years ago - i.e. it is easier to look better - but you need to do that to stand still, not move forward.

the more complex the internet becomes, the more sophisticated will be the needs of the websites being developed - from mashups to APIs, bespoke code to business processes integrating on and off-line... And there is a finite ability to grow the automation process, so beyond a certain point there will always be the need to develop bespoke. The minute a website moves out of the norm into anything specific to a business and its processes you can not automate the generation of that website - all that happens (which we see a lot of already) is that businesses start to change their processes / business models to fit the available software - pushing them backwards in growth / standing still

There will always be scope for companies / individuals selling cheap solutions to clients - up to the client to make a deliberate decision if it is right for them - however in reality this doesn't really upset the market - nor will it ever make them much money!

Alasdair

If you look at things though, it's not really becoming much more complex. Theres a whole line of work around flash development, now HTML5 has appeared and they're all going to be out of jobs! When you look at things like APIs, they're only becoming easier to use and understand. There will always be a need for someone to be there to manage the higher level, but I think as things get easier there is less need to go bespoke.

As for selling cheap, it'll put people out of business... yeah, but someone will still make money, the person behind all the automation.

I think right now a web developer needs to be able to understand everything, they provide coding, design, seo, etc. I think at the lower end you might find people just stick to one thing. People might just offer marketing, design work, but there will be less need for them spend all their time building everything from scratch.

(Sorry about the double post, forgot I had replied twice)
 
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If you look at things though, it's not really becoming much more complex. Theres a whole line of work around flash development, now HTML5 has appeared and they're all going to be out of jobs! When you look at things like APIs, they're only becoming easier to use and understand. There will always be a need for someone to be there to manage the higher level, but I think as things get easier there is less need to go bespoke.

As for selling cheap, it'll put people out of business... yeah, but someone will still make money, the person behind all the automation.

I think right now a web developer needs to be able to understand everything, they provide coding, design, seo, etc. I think at the lower end you might find people just stick to one thing. People might just offer marketing, design work, but there will be less need for them spend all their time building everything from scratch.

(Sorry about the double post, forgot I had replied twice)


With respect - this is clearly not true - I won't go into the detail of what we do for our clients - but this is a very skin-deep view of the internet - where it is actively growing is not in content based websites / systems which can be rolled out and reproduced for 1000s of people (and they cost a fortune to develop - I know because I have invested in doing that - and yes they have a role, but there is far less scope for them now) - the real growth area is in business specific transactional or process based coding on the internet - and that will never and can never be anything other than bespoke...

Alasdair
 
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With respect - this is clearly not true - I won't go into the detail of what we do for our clients - but this is a very skin-deep view of the internet - where it is actively growing is not in content based websites / systems which can be rolled out and reproduced for 1000s of people (and they cost a fortune to develop - I know because I have invested in doing that - and yes they have a role, but there is far less scope for them now) - the real growth area is in business specific transactional or process based coding on the internet - and that will never and can never be anything other than bespoke...

Alasdair

Thats the higher end though, when there is a real need to do something bespoke. Below this does a business really need your full attention to get online?

I actually don't like the idea of making a user decide everything, and do everything. I don't want them to have to build a website on their own, but I think the idea of putting them on rails and guiding them through the process whilst still giving them the bespoke options on design and features and in the end powering the website along with others with one secure and scalable system. By doing it this way one person could work on many more sites than one person occupied completely by one website because they have to do everything.

I know my theory isn't backed up by the experience that some people have on here, I don't mind if you want to shoot me down/tell me i'm wrong. I see a lot more small businesses and start ups wanting a web presence but I don't think they need the same service as more established businesses. If you could start them off inside the automated environment then add on their bespoke requirements when they need it, I think thats a better way of doing it than trying to go totally bespoke from day 1.
 
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The point I am making is that...

originally
- web companies were doing content sites
- those doing the website themselves were doing cheap html with no design sites

now
- web companies are doing process based sites / transactional sites
- those doing the website themselves are doing content sites

nothing has changed in amount of work - just the nature of the work has shifted down the scale... but that shift can not always happen as there comes a point where it no longer can be automated...

and we must be careful to use this site as an example of the real world - there are very few medium - big design / web companies on here and lots of one man bands - that is not a realistic sample...

Alasdair
 
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RedEvo

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I see the tech we provide as the easy bit in one sense. Wrestling down what clients really need and helping them create something of value is the challenge. We're just completing a 'simple website' and we are at over 150 hours and counting. I would expect a bottom feeding web co to look at the finished project and say "we would have charged £99.99 for that you were ripped off mate" because they didn't see the whole picture.

It's like people who ridicule logos and say they could have done it in 10 minutes, utterly clueless.

Just my two cents.

d
 
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