website ownership etc

[trefd]

I am about to engage a company to create a website and a ppc/seo campaign for a new business. what do I need to do to ensure I own the site and its content and also contol access to the website so that I'm not held to ransom in the future?

 

[Ivanzyt]

1- Make sure the domain is registered in your name to your business address
2- Make sure you have access to the website hosting package and have the necessary passwords.
3- Have the site hosted by a third party reputable ISP who are contracted directly with you.
4- Ensure any contract you sign transfers compete copyright ownrship to yourself and that they waive any common law or statuatory rights to ownership. This will not be a problem for any repuatble developer/designer.

This way if you ever fall out of bed with the developers you own the domain, the copyright, the hosting package, and can change the access passwords to prevent them from changing your site. With access to the hosting package you will also be able to download the entire site and keep copies for other web developers to work on if you need them too. i.e. you could have a laod of work performed on your site without your current developers knowing about it.

 

[Bill Ryan]

Trite answer is to check the terms and conditions of the supplier.

Particularly in relation to the website:

you may find you are being offered a limited licence and are to be tied in. It is common.

you might want to come back to them with some counter proposals that give you the IP rights over the look and feel plus a licence to use all the sub programming, plus the right to do what you want with it after you have paid for it.

It is very sensible that you have thought about this before it is too late.

 

[mit74]

1- Make sure the domain is registered in your name to your business address
2- Make sure you have access to the website hosting package and have the necessary passwords.
3- Have the site hosted by a third party reputable ISP who are contracted directly with you.
4- Ensure any contract you sign transfers compete copyright ownrship to yourself and that they waive any common law or statuatory rights to ownership. This will not be a problem for any repuatble developer/designer.

I wouldn't agree with the third one unless you're technically skilled enough to run your own website and cpanel. As a provider myself if a customer uses my servers I guarentee better support than all ISP's and for free. My prices are almost identical to most ISP and the first year is free is designing a website as well. Most other services cannot provide that. As long as the domain is registered to you, you can have access to cpanel and FTP and you agree that the website is yours you'll be okay. If you can't find someone give me a PM.

 

[Ivanzyt]

I wouldn't agree with the third one unless you're technically skilled enough to run your own website and cpanel. As a provider myself if a customer uses my servers I guarentee better support than all ISP's and for free. My prices are almost identical to most ISP and the first year is free is designing a website as well. Most other services cannot provide that. As long as the domain is registered to you, you can have access to cpanel and FTP and you agree that the website is yours you'll be okay. If you can't find someone give me a PM.

The design/developer can always have access to the ISP hosting package and run the website from there. A good developer will have no problem looking after an technical aspects of site management and maintenance even if it hosted by a third party. You can give access to whoever you want to and most LAMP or Windows hosting packages have the same interfaces so there should be no reason why a designer can't use a third party (unless something really obscure is being developed)

The advantage of contracting directly with the ISP is that you can swap designers/developers without having to move hosting. If your developer is also hosting your site then you might run into problems with this and you can not guarantee not being held to ransom in the furture- which was the question being answered.

 

[mit74]

The design/developer can always have access to the ISP hosting package and run the website from there. A good developer will have no problem looking after an technical aspects of site management and maintenance even if it hosted by a third party. You can give access to whoever you want to and most LAMP or Windows hosting packages have the same interfaces so there should be no reason why a designer can't use a third party (unless something really obscure is being developed)

The advantage of contracting directly with the ISP is that you can swap designers/developers without having to move hosting. If your developer is also hosting your site then you might run into problems with this and you can not guarantee not being held to ransom in the furture- which was the question being answered.

You won't be held for ransom if all the content and domain is yours if you want to change, it's a very simple process these days. As a small web designer I'm pretty lenient to my rules but if someone is hosting on another site (and paying them) why should I provide free technical support once the website is up and running? Some customers will only require a little technical support which is fine but where would you draw the line if a customer is phoning you up every week. For me if customers ask for their own hosting I'm fine with it but will let them know I charge if they need this support afterwards.
When hosting on my servers I do regular checks on all websites to so if they're online, emails are working or there are no security issues. Once a website is setup some customers won't even check it for months even years. This quality of service far out weighs any risk of being held for ransom in my opinion. Like I say if you own the domain it's just a case of contacting dns servers and rerouting if there are any problems.
If you're hosting on some of the big companies their support is very poor and slow to respond.

 

[Ivanzyt]

You won't be held for ransom if all the content and domain is yours if you want to change, it's a very simple process these days. As a small web designer I'm pretty lenient to my rules but if someone is hosting on another site (and paying them) why should I provide free technical support once the website is up and running? Some customers will only require a little technical support which is fine but where would you draw the line if a customer is phoning you up every week. For me if customers ask for their own hosting I'm fine with it but will let them know I charge if they need this support afterwards.
When hosting on my servers I do regular checks on all websites to so if they're online, emails are working or there are no security issues. Once a website is setup some customers won't even check it for months even years. This quality of service far out weighs any risk of being held for ransom in my opinion. Like I say if you own the domain it's just a case of contacting dns servers and rerouting if there are any problems.
If you're hosting on some of the big companies their support is very poor and slow to respond.

The problems of hosting with your web designer are
1- If they go bust your website goes down and you possibly loose your entire site. How do you get it back quickly? If you have a copy you still have to arrange new hosting, upload it and then re-point DNS. If you don't have a copy then you are well and truely .&*&%ed.
2- If they don't pay THEIR isp bills your website goes down until they settle the bill. Again you could arrange new hosting but how long will that take?
3- Most designers / developers really do not know how to run a datacentre or server very well. Really they don't. Its a completely different technical skill set.
4- Unless they are really big their server set up will be minisule and risky compare to a good ISP's hosting platform which will be backed up, virtualised, clustered etc. Do you run back up? Are your servers redundant? Are any databases servers clustered for redundancy? Do you have multiple internet links? Multiple power feeds? Are they protected by a good firewall? Is that firewall redundant in a high availability pair? Is the set up load balanced? Are the load balancers in an HA pair? Whats the DR plan if the datacentre goes down? I've yet to find a developer that had a web server setup that was anywere near as good as a decent ISP.

My advice, and I speak as someone who made a living selling network and hosting solutions for 10 years, is leave the design to the designers, the development to developers and hosting to ISP's and specalist hosting providers. The number of times I picked up hosting business from disgruntled businesses who ran in to trouble by hosting with with their web design company are too numerous to mention. In they very worst cases the designers had registered their domain names to the design company. Total nightmare, as I had to inform these poor folk that they didn't actually own their domain names.

I'll also add that I have no vested intrest here I no longer work in the hosting or networking business

 

[mit74]

the tech stuff is irrelevant. Most WEB companies rent or resell their hosting these days and act as middle men they're not just designers. The ISP still takes care of that and also many ISPs go bankrupt as well.

I think you're forgetting that many people are complete and utter technophobes. Some people can't even register a domain themselves or use a cpanel and FTP. I find many customers are happy for me to control every aspect of their website while others who maybe smarter technically don't. It's all down the the individual. If you go around telling everyone they're risking everything by using a web companies then they'll get into all sorts of trouble trying to do things themselves. I know customers who fall for the domain renewal scams, where a letter comes through their letter box saying your 'domain is up for renewal act now before it's sold on' and end up paying £40 to renew it instead of consulting their web company.

 

[Ivanzyt]

the tech stuff is irrelevant.

No it isn't its highly relevant. A web designer running a website on a single server represents a big business risk if that server dies for whatever reason the site is down. How much money that costs the business depends upon whats going on on the site but it could be many thousands of £ in lost revenue. I'd never advise trusting a web site to a single server shared hosting solution.

Most WEB companies rent or resell their hosting these days and act as middle men they're not just designers.

Just because most do it does not mean its a good idea.

The ISP still takes care of that

Ok thats fine. If its on the ISP's infrastructure then fine but I'd still advise contracting directly with the ISP and getting the designer to look after it. If they have a preferd ISP that they do business with regularly then great but I;d always advise dealing with ISP directly

and also many ISPs go bankrupt as well.

This is rare Especially if you use a repsuatble and established one. Web design comapanies come and go. They are often small businesses with few tangible assets. An ISP or host provider represents a far lower business risk.

I think you're forgetting that many people are complete and utter technophobes. Some people can't even register a domain themselves or use a cpanel and ftp://ftp.

Then they get the web designer to do it for them. There should be no issue in giving your designer access to the control panels this is common practice.

I find many customers are happy for me to control every aspect of their website while others who maybe smarter technically don't. It's all down the the individual.

Indeed but there is no reason why you can't have the best of both worlds

If you go around telling everyone they're risking everything by using a web companies then they'll get into all sorts of trouble trying to do things themselves.

Why? You can can buy some hosting directly and then get your designer to do as little or as much as you like. If a designer refuses to do this becasue they want you to host on their servers I'd advise that they choose another designer! One that is more reasonable.

I know customers who fall for the domain renewal scams, where a letter comes through their letter box saying your 'domain is up for renewal act now before it's sold on' and end up paying £40 to renew it instead of consulting their web company.

Well they can still consult their web company if the hosting is by a third party.
Unless the hosting requirement for the website is bespoke and obsucre I really can't see any advantage of trusting the hosting to a web design companies infrastrcuture. It will almost inevitably be worse infrastructure than the ISP's and thus present a greater business risk.

Then there is the danger of trusting hosting to company that is again almost inevitably much smaller and more risky to do business with.
Get the designers to do the design and the infrastructure comapies (ISP) to do the infrastructure. The best scenario is to find a web designer who has an established relationship with a good hosting company who will work with them and facilitate an introduction and recomendation. The hosting contract will be betwen the customer and the ISP and the support and design conttract will be between the customer and designer. This way if the customer falls out of bed with the designer they simply need to swap deisgners and find someone to support their website.

I have seen so many web design companies get sh*ty when their customers want to move away, they drag their feet delay things and generally make life difficult in moving the site. If its one their webserver and the customer is a technophobe then they have all the power. They have absolutely no insentive to make the transition smooth. If the customer is non technical the technobable and trouble caused by the web designer not playing ball has sometimes even meant that they keep hold of them as customers through sheer fear of moving!

 

[makeusvisible]

I have to throw my hat into this one;

When we bring new customer websites online we always host the sites for the customers. There are a few reaosns for this;

1. People who have few internet/I.T skills want a one-stop-shop. They dont want to know about hosting, backups, cpanel etc. They just want to know that their website will be created, and visible to the world.

2. On some occasions we have had customers who source their own hosting. This very often can be a bad thing. For example, the customer may not have researched the server side requirements of any web-based applications being installed onto their site, and problems arise when it wont work because the host is running an outdated version of a server side script... or has certain restrictions in place. By managing the hosting for our customers, we know there will be no blocks on certain scripts, outdated versions of applications, or silly restrictions on file sizes or bandwidth....which can often happen with cheaper hosts.

3. We backup all our sites on a scheduled basis. If the customer is self hosting this can be overlooked.

4. If there are problems with a website you can often end up with the customer blaming the designer, the designer blaming the host, and the host blaming the designer..... a one-stop-shop totally eliminates this. The customer knows that if the website goes down, they contact the designer.

Just my opinion from experience.

 

[KieranDonnelly]

Deal with this on a weekly basis.

Initial posts are fine, they all air on the side of caution, ensuring all domain registration is done in your businesses name and address.

Biggest problem people make, is they allow the Webdesigners to control DNS (the clever online bit that points traffic according to records in DNS, ie website located at XYZ Hosting). Designers then move all hosting to their own hosting reseller account and you end up having to relinquish control over your own hosting as they will not wish to give you credentials.

So remember, web designers are keen to lock you in some how (not all, some are ofc ethical) and by ensuring you can not make changes to a website, via hosting site, means you have to proxy through them, and certainly makes leaving them a messy affair if they do not think they are financially compensated or accounts are paid up.

If you have hosting, and it works, make sure they use it, entrust them with credentials to the FTP site, but not always the Cpanel. If they want mySQL databases or anything clever, just set it up yourself, or ask your hosting company to do it with a support ticket.

By virtue of you asking this question, you already appear to be cautious, which is healthy and kudos to you.

 

[KieranDonnelly]

2. On some occasions we have had customers who source their own hosting. This very often can be a bad thing. For example, the customer may not have researched the server side requirements of any web-based applications being installed onto their site, and problems arise when it wont work because the host is running an outdated version of a server side script... or has certain restrictions in place. By managing the hosting for our customers, we know there will be no blocks on certain scripts, outdated versions of applications, or silly restrictions on file sizes or bandwidth....which can often happen with cheaper hosts.
.

Assuming the author of this thread does not go to some micky mouse hosting company, you really can't expect me to believe that software will be anything differing from what you can do. This is a little bit of Jargon to scare people in to thinking you have superior hosting, which is all based on assumption that thread author does not get a major hosting company to full fill his/her needs.

What bugs me, is when a web design company who is making a healthy markup on work, also charges more than 100% mark up on hosting costs annually, when the reason they got employed was not to maintain and backup the website, but to design and help develop it in to what the customer wanted. The maintenance of the website is never done by the designers anyway, that is done by the hosting company, which the thread author could contract without a mark up and still get all the bells and whistles you suggest you add in value.

Try unitedhostings for hosting, they are bloody marvellous at customer support.

Sorry makeusawebsite, on this I personally have a different opinion on how a design business model should work and how a client should interact with design and hosting companies. Not that your opinion seems in any way unethical, just difference in opinions.

 

[makeusvisible]

Assuming the author of this thread does not go to some micky mouse hosting company, you really can't expect me to believe that software will be anything differing from what you can do.

But in most cases people who are not in the industry do not understand (or want to understand) about hosting companies. They can very often just look at price, and go with the cheapest.....or even a free host.

Depending on what the customers website requirements are they may need to be checking with the host some or all of the following....what PHP versions are supports, how many databases can you have per account, what are the email account limits, what are the bandwidth limits, what are the file size limits, number of file limits and storage limits, can you connect to the SQL database from a remote location....

If your web designer is hosting the site you can at least be certain the site is going to work, and you wont get situations like..." oh your server doesnt support mod rewrites, sorry...."

In my opinion (from experience) splitting your hosting and web design would be like buying your gas from British Gas and hiring some pipes to send the gas down from Scotish Power. It might well work out cheaper, but could create a world of problems.

Just my opinion, but I think business owners are busy enough running their business without wanting to get into the complexities of hosting.

 

[KieranDonnelly]

Fair enough, can we agree that if the client does know to buy from the wright hosting company, or better still, you advise on whom to use. The client is financially better off without a single consequence?

Which if you agree, begs the question, how much of a markup is appropriate to have bought something on behalf of a customer but available to the customer, in particular if you don't envisage any maintenance overheads incurred?

I sell my time to clients, as a outsourced member of team, but act on behalf of that companies interests primarily, over my own businesses. I do so safe in the knowledge that my time is compensated fairly, so that I do not need to make further money by reselling products available direct to the client. They need expertise and experience (like with yourself) and that is where I feel the costs should end.

No point going in circles, my opinion is probably in the minority anyway

 

[Ivanzyt]

Fair enough, can we agree that if the client does know to buy from the wright hosting company, or better still, you advise on whom to use. The client is financially better off without a single consequence?

Which if you agree, begs the question, how much of a markup is appropriate to have bought something on behalf of a customer but available to the customer, in particular if you don't envisage any maintenance overheads incurred?

I sell my time to clients, as a outsourced member of team, but act on behalf of that companies interests primarily, over my own businesses. I do so safe in the knowledge that my time is compensated fairly, so that I do not need to make further money by reselling products available direct to the client. They need expertise and experience (like with yourself) and that is where I feel the costs should end.

No point going in circles, my opinion is probably in the minority anyway

Spot on.
This is excactly how good web developers and designers opperate. They are there to make a great website not to make margins on hosting. They should offer advice on hosting as part of their overall design offering. A good developer will help the client navigate through all technical stuff when it comes to selecting a host so that the site they have designed will be housed in an environment that makes it work. They should have a few hosting companies they know and trust. But the contract for hosting should be between the end customer and the ISP. That way the customer retains complete control of their property. Hell they might even get a kick back from the hosting company for brininging them customers (but even that created ethical dillemas a bit in my opinion).

 

[makeusvisible]

Spot on.
But the contract for hosting should be between the end customer and the ISP.

This totally underlines my point.

 

[KieranDonnelly]

This totally underlines my point.

I miss understood, I thought you suggested it was easier for the client to just one-stop-shop the whole process. Which does not usually represent any financial benefit to the client.

 

[sansam]

Nowadays the designing a site is easy , you can go for built in templates , Online web designing companies which gives the templates to build a site quickly..[FONT=&quot]So you can reach thewebpole.com here get the web site designing service,the professionals design the site for you.....you tell your dream there the professional designers make it true in their design............Hope its help...[/FONT]