Website Designer

[44lisa44]

Hi,

Just after some help. My husband recommended a web designer who is a neighbour. My company website was badly in need of a revamp so I spoke to them. I saw some of there work and signed an 18 months contract to pay a set amount each month back in December 2011. This was a service contract as it involved them coming up with a website by 6th April 2012 and then me ammending it monthly as needed. The 6th April came and went and did not hear from them. I contacted them and was told that they were having problems with the website they had taken on prior to mine and that it would be ready within a month. A month went by and still nothing. Eventually i had enough stopped my direct debit payments and contacted them. They told me that the contract did not allow for me to stop payament and that the contract says there may be delays. I said I didn't care and was not paying anymore. I also arranged a meeting of which my husband was present. They apologised and showed me a mood board and said the website would definetley be ready by the 26th July and I have an email confirmation of this. Its now the 7th September, 9 months after contract started and still no website. I am now going into my down season and need the website to draw in new custom. All I want is my money back and to find some one else.
Where do i stand?
Any help or advise gratefully received.

Regards

Lisa

 

[zigojacko]

Let's be honest here.

They aren't going to refund your money. Nor are they going to deliver you a website. They probably never had any intentions too.

There is plenty of companies like this, they purely only exist to rip people off. String you along with monthly direct debit payments (which isn't even a normal procedure for website design services) for as long as they can get away with.

It really comes down to their terms and conditions (which they must have if they say the terms of the contract doesn't allow you to stop payments) - if you never saw these nor signed them/agreed them, then I wouldn't feel to threatened by any of the contents they contain.

I believe you would have a fair case in taking them to a small claims court to seek your money back. You will be able to prove how much you have paid to them plus you will have numerous email communication from them of deadlines that they have continuously failed to meet. If you go this far, they'll either return your money or you'll stand a good chance in winning the case anyhow - but just definitely read everything they sent you at start of "contract".

Be sure to name and shame them online too, write a poor review about them and your experience so they others don't suffer the same experience from them as well.

P.S: (I wouldn't trust your husbands recommendations again ). Hope that helps.

Edit: It is also worth noting that they can't tie you to any terms of the contract anyway as they too, failed the conditions of said contract by not delivering your website by 6th April 2012.

 

[profitmagnet]

This is what happens when someone you know recommends someone and that someone does not deliver. I would suggest you to first find a new company which delivers you a website on priority basis. Also threaten the guys that you will take them to court and shame them online. That would be enough for them to return your money. Once you say this DO NOT let them do anything to your website. If I was in your case I would change every password shared with them regarding hosting and domain name and then do what was suggested above.

 

[seoswat]

Do you have anything written down? not a contract (although that would be best)

More like a chain of emails saying what they said they would deliver etc

 

[Big Pete]

How much have you paid them to date ??

 

[jonny123]

I get a little angry when I hear stories like this.

Tip - get yourself set up with a Facebook Page and Google+ Page - both free, both can be used effectively to reach new customers.

Do you own and control the domain? i.e. look here: http://www.domaintools.com/

If you have access to the registrar account you can move your website anywhere. If the designer controls it all, it will be hard. If it is in your name and address, and a .co.uk domain, Nominet can resolve these disputes.

If you do not control the domain and it is not branded to your business, i.e. not the business name, and no work has been done so far, consider changing now.

Cannot comment on the legal / payment side - but they cannot charge for something they are not providing. They will nto be able to take your to small claims for it either as no contract and no work completed.

I real headache.

Final tip: There is no need to pay for ongoing maintenance. I could probably knock you up a Wordpress site in a couple of days, you will be able to update it whenever you like, the only ongoing fees are hosting (minimal) and every 2 years renewal of the domain (about a tenner). 1 monthly service worth getting in place is a regular off web server backup in case of hacking, webhost liquidation etc.

 

[Deleted member 27344]

1, Is this 'web designer' licensed as a credit agency? If not, what are you paying monthly for?
2, As has been mentioned, give up ever seeing your money or website from them
3, Next time do due diligence - check their website, check companies house and check credit rating agencies. Then ask for 3 recent client references then, if you're happy, and only then, start discussing the project.

 

[TheGeekestLink]

1, Is this 'web designer' licensed as a credit agency? If not, what are you paying monthly for?
2, As has been mentioned, give up ever seeing your money or website from them
3, Next time do due diligence - check their website, check companies house and check credit rating agencies. Then ask for 3 recent client references then, if you're happy, and only then, start discussing the project.

What if you can't get references? The company I'm thinking about using can't provide any references. Which is very slightly worrying! I've been burned way too many times now to give anyone access to my work without recommendations, but when we look for developers, we so rarely get any decent responses.

 

[jonny123]

Web design should be treated like any other transaction. Before you part with your cash you should agree on a project plan with various stages and deadlines, and pay as each stage is complete.

You would not hand a builder £10,000, or agree to pay them £1000 a month for a year, before they even showed any sign of starting the job (at least, you should not).

The saddest thing is that this was a neighbour - people tend to trust their neighbours a bit more.

Maybe worth giving these people a call to see what your rights actually are. Maybe you could take this to the small claims court.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/Consumerrights/DG_182935

 

[Faevilangel]

Don't work with them then. Developers are ten a penny so finding someone is easy.

Also we have a tenders area on here of you want to find someobe.

 

[Deleted member 27344]

What if you can't get references? The company I'm thinking about using can't provide any references. Which is very slightly worrying! I've been burned way too many times now to give anyone access to my work without recommendations, but when we look for developers, we so rarely get any decent responses.

If you can't get something basic like a reference, testimonials then walk away.
Also, try things like checking out their company page on LinkedIn and, as I said, Companies House for company registration details - seriously, if they don't have any of these, walk away.

Trust me, though, I hear your story every week.
I'm more than happy to chat and show you examples of what to look for - but we'll have to take it off forum.

 

[Faevilangel]

Am I not reliable because I am not a ltd co lee? Using co reg details not good idea as a few developers will be sole traders.

References are a must tho.

 

[Deleted member 27344]

Am I not reliable because I am not a ltd co lee? Using co reg details not good idea as a few developers will be sole traders.

References are a must tho.

Depends on what you're buying, but, yes, when a company supplying me something as important as a website I would definitely expect them to be a fully registered (LTD, PLC etc) company.

 

[TheGeekestLink]

If you can't get something basic like a reference, testimonials then walk away.
Also, try things like checking out their company page on LinkedIn and, as I said, Companies House for company registration details - seriously, if they don't have any of these, walk away.

Trust me, though, I hear your story every week.
I'm more than happy to chat and show you examples of what to look for - but we'll have to take it off forum.

I've been burned so many times. I now know what I'm after in terms of web development, but you post an ad online and you either get rubbish developers or outrageously high priced companies. Nothing in the middle.

Thanks for your advice, though. I'll keep looking for a proper developer!

 

[j600com]

I've been burned so many times. I now know what I'm after in terms of web development, but you post an ad online and you either get rubbish developers or outrageously high priced companies. Nothing in the middle.

Thanks for your advice, though. I'll keep looking for a proper developer!

There are plenty of good (and fair priced) developers out there who can provide references/allow you to talk to their clients.

There are also plenty of bad (and cheap) developers out there who will seem like a good option until you get stung a few times and realise it was false economy.

If you're realistic with your budget and expectations you should be able to find plenty of developers in the middle bracket (several on here in fact).

 

[Page]

Depends on what you're buying, but, yes, when a company supplying me something as important as a website I would definitely expect them to be a fully registered (LTD, PLC etc) company.

Why ?

You spend £60 and have a limited company that protects you - a sole trader is totally exposed to being sued

It can be an indicator of other things but plenty hide behind limited companies

What matters is references and contacts

Most websites - say who designed them at the bottom of the home page - so one way is to go and find some sites you like - then contact the designers and also the people whose site it is and see what they have to say - many will be helpful about companies that have done them proud and also slating about ones that have been hell to work for

Once you have a name shove it into google and away you go - plenty more that they have their name on will turn up

Good luck

 

[vutshuvo]

i would like to suggest you that try to find cheap developer for your business

 

[mlbmarketinguk]

Yep, you're going to have to get your case ready and take them to small claims court or similar

As I'm new, do a google search for "claim my business money" and choose the first result, that's the HM&CTS official link for business money disputes.

Cut your losses with them, find another designer / developer and see if they can get it done asap.

If it's a standard kind of website with no advanced functionality I might be able to fit it in, drop me a PM if interested.

Mike

 

[TheGeekestLink]

Just to ask: would you trust an official developer of CubeCart? They seem absolutely genuine but if the developer can read all the posts made by CubeCart, wouldn't that devalue a reference somewhat?

Maybe I'm just being (quite naturally so) paranoid after all the incredibly rubbish developers I've worked with.

 

[pbcclements]

I can only really agree with what has been said regarding your situation with this company.

As a software developer, I would though offer the following observations going forward :

1. Get the agreement carefully defined up front - I would expect staged payments on a development such as yours, with payment only triggered when the stage has been agreed. The project should be well specified up front, otherwise it will be really difficult to have come back.

2. Be really proactive with the development company - it may seem a little hard to get the relationship right, but the more that you can be involved on a day to day basis, the better for you in terms of control and a positive outcome. Don't assume the developer is delivering, you really need it both tied up legally, and police the deliverables/timsecales proactively yourself. If the development company is a good one, it will want to work with you and appreciate your active involvement. Try to manage a positive relationship between your companies & they will hopefully also reciprocate.

3. Keep an audit trail of promises/commitments.

Good luck.

Pete Clements

 

[zigojacko]

There are plenty of good (and fair priced) developers out there who can provide references/allow you to talk to their clients.

There are also plenty of bad (and cheap) developers out there who will seem like a good option until you get stung a few times and realise it was false economy.

If you're realistic with your budget and expectations you should be able to find plenty of developers in the middle bracket (several on here in fact).

To follow on from this...

Far too many businesses opt for the cheap options. When it comes to design and development, 9.9 times out of 10, cheap will mean incorrect, poor, shoddy rubbish work that will only make your online presence suffer and will cost more to rectify later down the line.

Those that keep getting burnt are quite often looking to cut corners and haven't been prepared to invest for the long haul - I know this is not always the case - but similarly, if you're asked to cough up either more than 50% of the total cost before any work has begun then this should ring alarm bells anyway.

The key here is be realistic with your budgets and expectations. Rarely will you get a worthwhile website designed for less than £450 in the UK, and even then 1) it will not be a bespoke designed theme or custom developed at this fee and 2) if you do see an opportunity to go for something less than this, find out more about who will be carrying out the work, look at previous work, seek testimonials etc.

Generally, cheap often means that the designer/developer is going to acquire pre-completed work from elsewhere and modify, lacks the commercial experience to accurately price up the nature of a job (which will result in corners being cut throughout it) and indicates they don't really value the quality of their work themselves.

 

[TheGeekestLink]

Far too many businesses opt for the cheap options. When it comes to design and development, 9.9 times out of 10, cheap will mean incorrect, poor, shoddy rubbish work that will only make your online presence suffer and will cost more to rectify later down the line.

Those that keep getting burnt are quite often looking to cut corners and haven't been prepared to invest for the long haul - I know this is not always the case - but similarly, if you're asked to cough up either more than 50% of the total cost before any work has begun then this should ring alarm bells anyway.

So very true. But I was personally burned by unscrupulous developers who masqueraded as legit developers and who didn't know what they were doing.

I used a factoring service when I knew nothing, and as soon as they got my first milestone payment they dropped the project. Second sold me a completely bug-riddled website filled with holes and cracked software and the new one is little more than a patch to tide me over...

The story here is, I think, to learn a little about web development so you know some of the pitfalls, do your research and above all else, get proper, legitimate references from the companies you use.

If you use a backroom developer, all you're going to get is hassle as while they could be fantastic developers, they often don't know the meaning of commitment or professionalism.

 

[zigojacko]

So very true. But I was personally burned by unscrupulous developers who masqueraded as legit developers and who didn't know what they were doing.

I used a factoring service when I knew nothing, and as soon as they got my first milestone payment they dropped the project. Second sold me a completely bug-riddled website filled with holes and cracked software and the new one is little more than a patch to tide me over...

The story here is, I think, to learn a little about web development so you know some of the pitfalls, do your research and above all else, get proper, legitimate references from the companies you use.

If you use a backroom developer, all you're going to get is hassle as while they could be fantastic developers, they often don't know the meaning of commitment or professionalism.

In my previous post, I just want to say that I wasn't insinuating this is what happened in relation to the original post, but was just extending the response I quoted

Completely agree with your comments too.

 

[TheGeekestLink]

In my previous post, I just want to say that I wasn't insinuating this is what happened in relation to the original post, but was just extending the response I quoted

Completely agree with your comments too.

Yes. I think you're right to make that clear. So sorry if there was any inference from my end (I'm just grumpy). I know so many small businesses that have been utterly screwed by their developers. I should have just spent 5000 and had the dream website I always wanted...

 

[tgstechnosis]

Hey
It is not a better idea to make a contract with designers. There are a lot of designers.. choose different ones at different times according to the conditions.

Before giving advance ask them to submit a trial design even the designers is not from your area

 

[Deleted member 27344]

Before giving advance ask them to submit a trial design even the designers is not from your area

yeah, that's a good idea - while you're at it, can you build me an app?
If I like it I'll pay, if not, you'll only have wasted a month or 2 of your precious time.

 

[j600com]

Before giving advance ask them to submit a trial design even the designers is not from your area

Good designers are usually busy and value their time (as do their customers). Because of this often they won't want to/need to do work for free in order to try and win your business.

A strong portfolio should be enough to show you the standard of their work - and you should always check a developers previous work before giving them the go ahead (if you don't like what you see don't go with them). I'm surprised at how many companies I speak to who've had a bad experience who never saw examples of their developers work before starting the project.

 

[TheGeekestLink]

A strong portfolio should be enough to show you the standard of their work - and you should always check a developers previous work before giving them the go ahead (if you don't like what you see don't go with them). I'm surprised at how many companies I speak to who've had a bad experience who never saw examples of their developers work before starting the project.

I commission a HUGE amount of design work and can I just say there has never been a more true statement than this. A good portfolio will tell a client everything they need to know. And better, with web design, you can actually look at a developer's work and test it.

 

[DPOM]

^^ As above. We get asked regularly to do a "trial design" and we always say no and direct them to our portfolio / references and as GeekestLink mentioned, a good portfolio should be more than enough to demonstrate ability.

Also, IMO a good contract is essential, i'm not talking about a biased one sided contract to protect the developer but one that's fair and reasonable and gives the client accurate / reasonable expectations and makes them fully aware from the very start what the project entails.

IMO too many firms get scared about contracts when in actual fact, done properly they remove any doubt at the very beginning resulting in much smoother projects

 

[TheGeekestLink]

^^ As above. We get asked regularly to do a "trial design" and we always say no and direct them to our portfolio / references and as GeekestLink mentioned, a good portfolio should be more than enough to demonstrate ability.

I KNEW there was a point to my post (damn these early starts) and it was this:

No company (with a decent portfolio of work) should EVER have to do work for free. And no company should be asking for 'free' work.

You can see full well whether a designer is right for the job by checking out their previous work and seeing where they sit in listings.

Asking for free work or a free design is insulting to all parties. It is the purchaser's responsibility to do the pre-contract work, NOT the developer!

I feel very strongly about this (can you tell?)

There are programs online which allow you to analyse the errors in a website (and some very good paid ones - well worth it to see how well a site is performing), so you never need to ask a developer to do free work. Ever.

It's only when contracts are worth millions and you're looking into doing a major service contract (or the like) that a company would have to do pre-pursuit work. I can't ever see a time when this would apply to web development!

 

[ukbf0001]

Anything written down ?
If not dont worry - contracts can also be implied and as far as I know if you bother to take them to court then the Judge will look at the 6 (I think) conditions that apply when a contract is formed (I am not a lawyer by the way - but commerce and law at uni).

I would stop any payments immediately I'll doubt very much whether they'll pursue it esp in light if they havent done any work (you can always complain to trading standards about them and ask them to investigate - and make a visit)


As far as the website goes - paying monthly is ok - but you would be better off stipulating various objectives and only paying once those objectives have been met.

 

[ITsoldUK]

Depends on what you're buying, but, yes, when a company supplying me something as important as a website I would definitely expect them to be a fully registered (LTD, PLC etc) company.

From my side of the fence as a sole trader I must take opposition to this statement.

Why? As a sole trader I stand or fall on the strength of my recommendations.

Too often do I hear of ltd companies pheonixing and taking customer cash with them to set up again and continue the cycle.

Again, as a sole trader I am not only 100% liable BUT I have the strength of my convictions to put my name to EVERYTHING and offer complete transparency instead of giving a reg office and co number and co bank account that, in many cases bear no relevance to me or my location what so ever.

That said, I am in agreement with many of the postings here and working for a friend of a friend can be a dark path unless FORMAL AGREEMENTS are put in place with tangible milestones.

No license required with to take monthly payments for services (such as web maintenance etc). Only if you are offering a credit agreement for payment for the project (I think, that is opinion not fact so I await correction/confirmation of policy).

 

[Fairway]

Sorry to hear this story makes all of us look bad, we have had a few clients who have had there fingers burned in the past. Unfortunately this happens in every industry. We always show our clients their design before they give us any money and then when they are happy with how it will look we take a small deposit and get a contract signed before we start physically making the site and email them regular updates along the way.

If you do not have paperwork signed etc you probably have no way of getting anything out of them. If you are really desperate and funds are not that accessible I would be happy to help out with some parts free of charge. Obviously I cannot spare a huge amount of time but please feel free to get in touch.

 

[Big Pete]

Hi,
Any help or advise gratefully received.

Regards

7th September 2012, 10:02 [FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, arial]44lisa44[/FONT]

I'm just testing the water here.
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Lisa

I don`t know about you guys , but do you ever get fed up with these 1 post ask a question and bugger off brigade ???

I know i do , think i may wait til they have 3 posts ,before wasting what is indeed truly the widest knowledge of life and business matters ever wedged inside a skull in replying ...

 

[TheGeekestLink]

I don`t know about you guys , but do you ever get fed up with these 1 post ask a question and bugger off brigade ???

I know i do , think i may wait til they have 3 posts ,before wasting what is indeed truly the widest knowledge of life and business matters ever wedged inside a skull in replying ...

These posters are the bane of forums everywhere. They make one post across loads of forums and then forget about it!

 

[Big Pete]

These posters are the bane of forums everywhere. They make one post across loads of forums and then forget about it!

exactly . and i for one am starting to get fed up with it .. Decency manners loyalty all gone nowadays .. damn this 2nd generation

 

[eliser35]

Hi there, I have just joined this forum and hope someone can help.

I am in need of some advice/recommendation. I have been stung by a so called web designer company recently. Luckily they only got a deposit which I doubt I will ever see again (I say 'luckily' as apparently people have lost a lot more money than me)!

Is there anyone who can recommend a trustworthy web design company please? What seemed like an easy find at first is now turning into a nightmare. I have slowly realised that you literally have to question every single thing on the web and as no one I know has used a web designer it is so hard!

Sorry if this is a ramble, I am hoping for some understanding people out there who can help. I need an e-commerce site.

Many thanks in advance

Eliser

 

[Faevilangel]

If you're paying £1500+ for a developer, you need to be meeting them, my biggest client is 200 miles from me but I have met them twice during their projects as we get so much more done in 3 hours at their office than 2 days on email.

There are lots of web developers posted in this thread so take a look at their sites (ignore mine as it's offline) and pick up the phone, find an understanding with them.

Before starting work, you will need to define exactly what you want from them, and for how much. Then do your research, talk to existing clients and meet them face to face.

Spending 2 hours doing research will play dividends when finding someone reliable.

 

[zigojacko]

Hi there, I have just joined this forum and hope someone can help.

I am in need of some advice/recommendation. I have been stung by a so called web designer company recently. Luckily they only got a deposit which I doubt I will ever see again (I say 'luckily' as apparently people have lost a lot more money than me)!

Is there anyone who can recommend a trustworthy web design company please? What seemed like an easy find at first is now turning into a nightmare. I have slowly realised that you literally have to question every single thing on the web and as no one I know has used a web designer it is so hard!

Sorry if this is a ramble, I am hoping for some understanding people out there who can help. I need an e-commerce site.

Many thanks in advance

Eliser

You're better off starting a new thread in the tenders forum to request for some recommendations. We specialise in ecommerce design and marketing so happy to discuss your requirements if you would like? We have ample clients on this forum and outside of it or you could search online for plenty of recommendations/reviews. I would avoid anyones services on here if they directly message you as a result of this post of yours (as they will be breaking forum rules anyhow).

 

[eliser35]

Dear Zigojacko and Faevilangel

Thank you so much for your replies, especially the advice on people emailing me directly. I am looking through the threads and will also post on the other thread as you say.

In some respects it is bad to say it but I am relieved that I am not the only one to be taken for a ride out there. Wish that weren't the case but I cannot believe the blatant money grabbing going on.

Zigojacko can I call/email you to fill you in on what I am looking for?

Thanks again

Eliser