Using pricing software

[whippet]

Hello Everyone,
Noobie forum member here

I have recently started a new business with a partner. We are both really experienced in carpentry and site management, but fish out of water when it comes to the business side of things! We have started taking on carpentry contracts and wish to build from what we have at the moment. We have managed to secure enough work until Christmas at the moment with 4 different contracts, and a team of 6 Carpenters (ourselves included)
We have set ourselves a goal to have a "virtual office" and be off the tools, managing contracts and driving round "picking up checks" by Christmas ( We are both easily pleased )
We have been looking at some pricing software for...yes you guessed it..pricing up jobs!! Does anyone have any experience of using this type of software? It is quite expensive at around £1000 but one of my worries is that as we go out and tender for more jobs if we are too cheap we will cripple ourselves in the world of sub contract carpentry and if we are too expensive we will waste opportunities in the future as the main contractors wont look at us again.
Any advice on pricing be it with software or any other method would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for any replies in advance

 

[whippet]

No replies yet Is it to specialized a question with me being a sub contractor working in the commercial sector of construction?
Maybe I should turn my question in this thread into a blog type thingy

Then you could all "chip-in" whenever you like and help me with my plans for World Domination

 

[johnnyc]

Hi

congrats on the plan and the amount of work lined up that is a brilliant achievement, especially at the minute.

As a rule i try not to use the estimating software on offer purely for the fact that it is expensive and constantly needs upgrades, etc. However that said if you are tendering for commercial works which will tend to be through a bill of quants the software may be of use, especially as many such as HBXL have Health and safety parts which can save time in providing risk, coshh assessments etc.

I use my own spreadsheet which i have painstakingly labour on over the years which seems to do the trick!!

 

[whippet]

Hi

congrats on the plan and the amount of work lined up that is a brilliant achievement, especially at the minute.

As a rule i try not to use the estimating software on offer purely for the fact that it is expensive and constantly needs upgrades, etc. However that said if you are tendering for commercial works which will tend to be through a bill of quants the software may be of use, especially as many such as HBXL have Health and safety parts which can save time in providing risk, coshh assessments etc.

I use my own spreadsheet which i have painstakingly labour on over the years which seems to do the trick!!

Hi Johnnyc
Thanks for your reply, we currently use a spread sheet with prices we have worked out based on our experience and some cheating from checking prices used by other contractors as our time as site managers which seems to be working OK. I have noticed one of the "carpentry based" pricing software packages that I'm interested in offers a demonstration either at their place or ours, so I will have to give my opinion of it after the demo I think

 

[TotallySport]

No nobody that every quoted us, every used pricing software they used experience.

I would suggest one of you needs to step back and get used to running the business, eg doing the quotes pricing etc, and the other runs the staff.

However you have posted in one of the quietest forums, you'd have got more replies in the general forum, I have reported the thread (using the triangle top right) to ask for it to be moved.

 

[whippet]

No nobody that every quoted us, every used pricing software they used experience.

I would suggest one of you needs to step back and get used to running the business, eg doing the quotes pricing etc, and the other runs the staff.

However you have posted in one of the quietest forums, you'd have got more replies in the general forum, I have reported the thread (using the triangle top right) to ask for it to be moved.

Hello TotallySport,
Thanks for your reply and for helping to move this thread around for me
When you say people that "quoted us" are you talking about work on a commercial level or for your domestic building needs? I can easily price small roofs, doors and the like in peoples houses, but pricing up bigger jobs can be much more complicated and the main contractors that we are currently working for tend to use Quantity surveyor type people to give them an idea of cost and budget. We have considered using a QS ourselves, but we feel that at the moment we would like to learn this aspect of the job, even though we know that it can be tricky and we have a lot to learn.
We have a business model of what we want to offer that we feel could give us a slight edge in our market, but we don't want to go in too cheap to start with as it will cost us money and if we start pricing way above our competition then we could lose opportunities to tender for other contracts with main contractors at a later date.

One avenue I have started to explore is visiting my local library and working my way through one or two of the "spons pricing" guides to give us a good idea of how architects and other professionals in the construction industry base their pricing. This is what led me to think about pricing software

 

[TotallySport]

Both, although nothing massive.

however IMO it all boils down to experience, the principle for domestic and commercial are the same, you may need to include more elements if one of them.

Part of experience is making the mistakes, just don't make to many big ones.

Sorry I don't have the experience to offer better information but good luck.

 

[Gecko001]

Have you tried Spon's pricing books? They give you prices and are what the quantuity surveyors use - basically the industry standard as far as I can see. The are very expensive by the way (When I last looked approx. £100 a book) but I think they are cheaper if you my them in electronic form.

 

[johnnyc]

Hi whippet
Using paid for software is only one part of pricing/winning a contract there are pros and cons, however using a spons, wessex price book can be of help together with your previous experience in the trade when pricing a bill of quants or take off. The key to correctly quoting on larger commercial jobs is exactly the same as when you first start out on private work, trial and error, i 'm afraid!
When you price for any company always get "feed Back" from your contact, most people are happy to give you the reason your company didnt win the job and generally price isnt always the case.
Of the estimating software i have used it did make it easier to ensure that all bases were covered and i tended to miss less things.

 

[hipwuk]

Hi,

I used to be a quantity surveyor in my past life, and I have never seen anyone use any form of software to price up jobs. Having not had any experience in using the software, I would hazard a guess that the software uses a "broad brush" pricing model which is based on a range of prices and quants, and a limited number of scenarios, such as curved or straight wall, access restrictions etc. and then spit out a figure. I don't trust that any pricing software will have enough flexibility to allow for all eventualities, which manual pricing can cover, as well as fluctuations in rates of materials and labour. I have worked on some very large scale projects, some over £1bn, and looking at the tenders from top to bottom of the food chain, they are all manually priced.

The unfortunate part of the tendering process is that it does require manual input, and a lot of it. The larger the project, the more complicated it becomes, and unfortunately a lot of small scale subcontractors do get caught out financially as they don't have sufficient pricing or contract experience (the pricing forms the main part of the contract, and there are different approaches to pricing depending on the form of contract used, the design/build stage, and your profit margins).

I say, do it manually so you can be really "hands on" and you know that you haven't missed anything. In addition, it provides you with valuable experience, especially if your business grows and you end up working on bigger projects in the future. Bigger projects = more complicated pricing and tendering processes, and it is imperative that you familiarise yourself with the management of this so you don't get screwed over by the "big boys" at the top.

 

[hipwuk]

Ooops, nearly forgot... I would also like to add - QS' use Spons to give them an broad estimate of what it would cost to build xyz for client cost planning purposes (amongst others), and isn't sufficiently detailed enough. You are NOT a QS, you are a specialist trade contractor, and therefore your "price" is your detailed cost break down based on your experience, rates, etc. and therefore should be more accurate than Spons. In short, use Spons if you wish to give you an idea of what a QS would see from their side, but don't use it to price up jobs (you should be using rates from your suppliers).

Further, when I use to award contracts to subbies, price is NOT the deal maker. Sure, price is important, but what we are looking for is: do they have the experience and can they deliver? Is their standard of workmanship high? Do they have capacity? Do I have experience with them? etc etc.

Hope this helps!

 

[whippet]

Hello everyone
Just quick reply as I'm off to work this morning ( I know its a bank-holiday!! )
Your replies are absolutely excellent, really helpful and have given me lots of food for thought.

HIPWUK! Many thanks! What you say makes a lot of sense and has helped me realise that I should be willing to trust my instincts on the pricing and not rely on some "generic" machine


OK off to work

 

[avalanche]

Hello Everyone,
Noobie forum member here

I have recently started a new business with a partner. We are both really experienced in carpentry and site management, but fish out of water when it comes to the business side of things! We have started taking on carpentry contracts and wish to build from what we have at the moment. We have managed to secure enough work until Christmas at the moment with 4 different contracts, and a team of 6 Carpenters (ourselves included)
We have set ourselves a goal to have a "virtual office" and be off the tools, managing contracts and driving round "picking up checks" by Christmas ( We are both easily pleased )
We have been looking at some pricing software for...yes you guessed it..pricing up jobs!! Does anyone have any experience of using this type of software? It is quite expensive at around £1000 but one of my worries is that as we go out and tender for more jobs if we are too cheap we will cripple ourselves in the world of sub contract carpentry and if we are too expensive we will waste opportunities in the future as the main contractors wont look at us again.
Any advice on pricing be it with software or any other method would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for any replies in advance

Hi and good luck on the new venture

Pricing software can save you a load of time but you would be foolish to rely on it using pre-defined prices, you need to build a database over time from your job costings then adjust as necessary to suit the job.
i.e as a base cost I know i need to charge £10 for a length of skirting and £5 for a length of arc but this could double depending on the pita factor of the job, in another area of the country this may be too cheap/expensive.
2 contractors in the same town will not have the same overheads so their prices will vary also

If it is competetive pricing jobs that you are quoting for then you just need to find your bottom level price then adjust to suit.
They say the one who wins the job made the biggest mistake so don't be too pleased when you get the order
Unfortunately the only way to learn is by trial and error, just remember when you lose a ton of money think of it as paying for an education

I personally use quickbooks premier which does all my job costing and estimating, I have tried most others but found them not to be flexible enough

 

[jakeberry]

Hello,

Have you heard of ProntoCalc.com?
Its a new website where you can price up builds. You go through each section and enter your data (can leave out parts that are irrelevant) and it throws out a PDF estimate at the end.

I've found it useful because its easy for my clients to see where the money is going, and it has a one month free trial.

 

[jakeberry]

It has complete flexibility too, you can change any of the prices, set them as your default for next time, and add any additional costs/ommisions.