UK Website design company - REALLY???

[Ali-v-8]

How many times have you heard this?
How many times has it been real?
For the record I now refuse to work on any website built or touched by Indian companies.
They never tell you the truth until you find out and show them and then they say "oooh that is what you mean!!". I hate having to mop up after them and when you try to explain to a client then if some one messes up SEO its a lot worse than no SEO.
Indian companies have no real feel of UK English or slang and this is a real issue when you look at semantics.
When they have no idea about a subject they copy and by the time you realise they have you find that they have been paid and it will cost you extra to change it.
This is not a race thing its a business thing. Do yourself a favour. Lots of talented UK businesses an kids leaving Uni. Give them a go.
Stop out sourcing and pretending your all in house.
Save me a hell of a lot of time fixing stuff instead of doing stuff.. Rant over.

 

[Webtistic]

And so say all of us..

 

[cmcp]

There are good and bad professionals no matter which country you single out.

The standard of UK "development" i just as bad. For example, the sig links in both posts above demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of front end web (check your document outline and alt text).

I work with world class developers in Bengaluru. Sure, there are some issues. but I can assure you they are far advanced. I work with them because their manners are top class, work ethic admirable, and standard of work excellent.

If your deliverables aren't up to scratch from outsourcing is it usually the fault of your requirements and management of the project. Pay peanuts you'll get monkeys.

 

[SuffolkDesigns]

There are good and bad professionals no matter which country you single out.

I work with world class developers in Bengaluru. Sure, there are some issues. but I can assure you they are far advanced. I work with them because their manners are top class, work ethic admirable, and standard of work excellent.

If your deliverables aren't up to scratch from outsourcing is it usually the fault of your requirements and management of the project.

Agreed.
I have a new client who paid £1800 to their last designer and got a basic Wordpress installation from a UK "designer", with no theme and very little customisation, they were seriously ripped off!
I have used developers from UK and abroad and have found good and bad everywhere.
I try to use UK developers where I can as I prefer to buy/spend in the UK.
However I have a very good working relationship with 2 Indian developers and 1 Bulgarian and they always produce work that exceeds my expectations, they are more than willing to make modifications if needed due to communication issues or if I simply change my mind.
I pay them well compared to their local salaries, not quite as much as I would have to pay here, although I would pay more if I could find a local developer with the same skills & work ethics that was local. (I have tried but can't find anyone)

Working with any developer it is important to clearly explain all your requirements and expectations from the start, have a contract and if possible use Escrow or don't pay until the job is completed correctly.

I also try not to tar everyone with the same brush.

 

[Webtistic]

I should just state that I was agreeing with Ali in his suggestion that many companies claim 'no outsourcing' and then do exactly that and not that outsourcing is always bad (providing the service provider follows the same values/ethics, etc).

We don't outsource any digital marketing work and it's a USP in the SEO industry, but I see other companies who I know do but claim the same.

There are, of course, many good outsource companies (and many bad ones).

 

[Ali-v-8]

As pointed out by Webtastic - I think that if you outsource, then tell your client.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

As pointed out by Webtastic - I think that if you outsource, then tell your client.

Why?

I don't agree with saying 'no outsourcing' if a business actually does outsource, but I don't see the point in telling every prospect even if they haven't asked.

If you've managed to create a good service with the use of outsourcing, then how it's actually done is irrelevant. The client gets what they want, they're happy, so there's no issue.

 

[MASSEY]

I agree with Scott.

It is ludicrous to suggest a business must give away its setup to a customer.

If i was to tell customers that the person visiting their property doesn't actually work for me (when i subcontract out) but is giving me a cut of the work he is getting paid for they would most likely find that situation strange and want nothing to do with me...

I think Ali might aswel tell the customer how much it costs him to make the website too if he feels so strongly about divulging business structure

 

[SuffolkDesigns]

As pointed out by Webtastic - I think that if you outsource, then tell your client.

Why?
If I accept a project and choose to outsource all or part of it them I am responsible for the result. If I outsource work to someone here or abroad and the client is not happy then it is my reputation, not the reputation of the person who done the work, that is at risk.

The people I outsource work to are based all over the world and have been doing work for me for years, for some projects I might end up using 4-5 different people before the project is complete. The advantage is that having built up a network of workers I can outsource to the people that are best suited to the clients needs.

If the client asks, I make no secret that I outsource but I don't actively advertise that I do because many people, as can be seen here, instantly assume that outsourcing means "Indian scammers"

 

[Annoying Donkey]

Some Indians speak better english than the English

I do not favour outsourcing to India, simply because I have had some bad experiences, however, I have also had plenty of bad experiences with UK companies. I would draw well short of accusing the whole nation of being dodgy.

The internal structure of your business is no ones business but your own, however you are responsible for the quality of the work. If you outsource cheaply, you'd better have a backup plan

 

[Deleted member 59730]

If you outsource cheaply, you'd better have a backup plan

Like Natwest/RBS/Ulster Banks perhaps?

 

[trebor8]

Why?

but I don't see the point in telling every prospect even if they haven't asked.

Why?

Because there is a little thing called TRUST! and it means a hell of a lot

It shows your lack of ethics when dealing with client/customer

Ok, even if it all turns out well in the end, but if I wasn't told upfront, the work is outsourced and I found out - then a bad seed is planted in my mind and the trust is gone. On the other hand if I was told up front, with assurances, I personally wouldn't have a problem with it.

 

[number42]

3 websites built by UK companies, 1 US

Never will touch Indian ones, no offence but there are things that get lost in translation and support generally isn't there


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[RadiusBPO]

I have a guy in India who designs all my lead gen templates. They only cost £100 each and are fantastic. Nothing gets lost in translation because I am a good communicator and take care to ensure he know's exactly what I am after. And his designs convert very well.

 

[ramesh_vikaschouhan]

I can agree with some of them . but people must not forget they are mere developers . whatever you will tell them to do they will do . if you guide indians properly , no way you can get bad results . Indians work hard but you need to manage them properly . yes mistakes are everywhere . mistakes can be done even by UK , US companies also . I will just suggest if you communicate with indian company . you can keep faith that work would be done with good quality if company or person is good and having proper knowledge .

Every one here you can get in touch with me for web developement and SEO , we have recently started working on iphones and android. projects .
we also work on wordpress , joomla .
we also do graphic designing , PSD to HTML conversion .

 

[Ali-v-8]

disclosure does not mean divulging secrets

 

[webgeek]

Having signed a customer recently who had bought 3 websites from a Midlands web design firm with high street store front, yada yada, we found a nightmare.

There were broken links, images referenced in multiple subfolders, mixed case usage (sometimes upper, sometimes lower), fugly css and the list goes on and on.

We later found out the designer was a college kid who was employed by the design firm. Why they allowed this poor quality of work to go out is anyone's guess.

I think a lack of commitment to quality, and good service, is rife, no matter where you are located.

 

[j600com]

I don't know anyone who openly promotes the fact they outsource to India etc. I know many who do outsource all their dev overseas (the UK arm is purely sales). If you asked them the question directly I don't think they would lie about it; but you look at their site and there is no mention that the development actually goes to India, Asia, Eastern Europe etc. I'm talking about some major names in this industry too (some of which even have UK in their company name haha). I always tell prospective clients to go visit a potential eCommerce partner/supplier and see their setup/meet the team. If they did this in the first place there wouldn't be half as many threads on here about people being ripped off/let down. Most are lazy though, and want someone to go them instead; so end up with a nice sales pitch from a 'suit' who has no substance to back the pitch and farms it out elsewhere.

Ps. This wouldn't just protect them from those who farm out projects overseas, it would also protect them from those who don't actually have a UK team at all, middle men agencies, resellers, bedroom businesses and so on. Someone coming to pitch to you could be from absolutely anywhere?! Yet many retailers i speak to don't bother to do their homework or do a return visit. These are often the enquiries where a project has fell apart and they are now in need of help.

 

Because there is a little thing called TRUST! and it means a hell of a lot

But nowhere near as much as results.

 

[MASSEY]

Because there is a little thing called TRUST! and it means a hell of a lot

It shows your lack of ethics when dealing with client/customer

Ok, even if it all turns out well in the end, but if I wasn't told upfront, the work is outsourced and I found out - then a bad seed is planted in my mind and the trust is gone. On the other hand if I was told up front, with assurances, I personally wouldn't have a problem with it.

You're speaking as a biased customer, who, if i recall, had issues with his web development.

I think if someone says they can do something for you at an agreed price and they manage to do it then whether or not they outsource should be neither here or there.

 

[Ali-v-8]

hmmm - too many differ points of argument brewing here.
1) to disclose how work is carried out.
2) if seo is carried out abroad (i was just on about website design)

If your going to use an Indian company then your handling it - you can argue the fact that you keep cost down by doing so, nothing wrong with that. But if the outsourced work is faulty and client needs instant fix what do you do - spend time explaining as a third party what needs to be done.

SEO is even worse - a very high percent of the tie they refuse acces to allow us to do work because then we find out they have outsourced and instead of being honest they come out with some ludicrous excuse why they shouldn't optimise and should do adwords instead.

I guess i am getting at people who put profit margins above clients welfare and only look at the short term.

 

[SuffolkDesigns]

I guess i am getting at people who put profit margins above clients welfare and only look at the short term.

Which is something I never do.

My target is always to provide work that is on time, on budget and that exceeds the clients requirements and expectations, hopefully gaining a client for life.

If the client is not satisfied or feels in any way ripped off then it wouldn't matter if I done the work myself or outsourced it to someone from the UK or abroad, then it is me that has failed, my reputation at stake and that is simply not acceptable to me.

 

[Annoying Donkey]

it would also protect them from those who don't actually have a UK team at all, middle men agencies, resellers, bedroom businesses and so on.

I take great offence to that. Rick and I run a very successful business 'out of our bedroom' (well, study/office which in my case could be a bedroom). Our SEM clients are very satisfied, several having given us unsolicited gifts, some of which are huge value. Most have been with us for > 18 months, came via referrals and our fees do not come close to being at the cheap end of the market. And we continue to get referrals from our clients even though we have virtually closed for new business... That is not the profile of a small business who rips off their customers...

If you don't like outsourcing then you shouldn't buy from that most British of institutions, M&S, because their stock is manufactured in outsourced sweatshops...

I guess i am getting at people who put profit margins above clients welfare and only look at the short term.

I don't think that applies just to Indian firms...

 

[Ali-v-8]

May be the experience of the last 6 months is making me biased against Indian outsourced work.
I have spent most of my time problem solving instead of actually doing the work I am asked to perform.
For example - simple shopping solution (a shopping cart) - its off the shelf easy to use, very easy to set up - Yet some Indian guy has re-wrote it and disabled stuff so that everything is to be done through him. When i asked the company who sold the website they would get back to me 2-3 days later for simple things like page tags.
On a shopping cart its just below the product description and take 30 seconds to fill - when doing the next one a suggestion pops up for you to choose (simple).
Our teckie to one look and realise what they had done and when asked the web company had no idea.
Problem is that they are now tied in and so is the client unless he has a new site built - but because of the way that site is built, guess what? - yep - NO Export tool - its been removed.

UK company all the way - sorry if I sound like out of order - But all this outsourcing has put a down turn on costings and in the long term university leavers dont have jobs cos its cheaper to use patel in india at a 10th of the price - even though he gets it wrong or makes it impossible for someone else to fix it..
Its monopolisation.

 

[MASSEY]

Well i would never use a 'patel' from India but i have no need to for such little jobs.

But if i had a big web project on the go and budget i would be inclined to go where's best for vale for money.

I wouldn't say the way India and Uk developers operate is much different. There have been enough threads on here slagging the web companies on page one of google uk for getting them into long contracts they can't get out of. Most notably the SEO companies. :redface:

 

[SuffolkDesigns]

May be the experience of the last 6 months is making me biased against Indian outsourced work.
I have spent most of my time problem solving instead of actually doing the work I am asked to perform.
For example - simple shopping solution (a shopping cart) - its off the shelf easy to use, very easy to set up - Yet some Indian guy has re-wrote it and disabled stuff so that everything is to be done through him. When i asked the company who sold the website they would get back to me 2-3 days later for simple things like page tags.
On a shopping cart its just below the product description and take 30 seconds to fill - when doing the next one a suggestion pops up for you to choose (simple).
Our teckie to one look and realise what they had done and when asked the web company had no idea.
Problem is that they are now tied in and so is the client unless he has a new site built - but because of the way that site is built, guess what? - yep - NO Export tool - its been removed.

UK company all the way - sorry if I sound like out of order - But all this outsourcing has put a down turn on costings and in the long term university leavers dont have jobs cos its cheaper to use patel in india at a 10th of the price - even though he gets it wrong or makes it impossible for someone else to fix it..
Its monopolisation.

I wonder if you would feel so strongly if it was a UK developer that had messed up the shopping cart causing you so much work? Would you then be recommending outsourcing?

Also, outsourcing does not have to be from india, it can be from anywhere and is a very common thing to do in many many industries and has been for many years.

I also know a couple university leavers that have degrees in IT related subjects and are out of work. However they are out of work because they will not consider getting a job for less that 50k/year as they are to good for that. I have offered them work and been quoted totally unrealistic prices.

 

[Elliottc26]

Outsourcing is how, in a capital world, businesses instantly increase their profit margins. Simple. But this has created an issue...

People now want top quality for bargain prices. There's no scale anymore where pay cheap, get less quality doesn't go anywhere.

What I am having to do is re-design my website (in process) to look high quality with high quality products, for a small price.

For example, I have just completed a detailed icon of a game controller for a programmer for £65 (not a plug btw...just stating a fact as an example!). That's £13 an hour, which would mean with full-time work this would equate to £25,000 turnover per annum before tax, costs, etc.,.

Uni leavers have taken the wages down to £16k per annum starting pay, with 100 applicants per job. Employed design work averages £10 per hour for in-house work only (£19,500 per annum).

Also, the internet has killed markets and small businesses too as we all know..

It's a desert out there!

 

[webgeek]

All depends on who's wearing the shoe...

BT was 'outsourcing' a lot of work on-shore from England to Scotland where they could get college degreed, skilled staff for just above minimum wage. At the same time they were outsourcing less client-facing B2B work to India, for 10% of the English wage (or less).

Some web projects I've worked on for London-based companies outsourced a lot of the design to America, where the work was equivalent but the price was 1/2 (just like the price of everything else there is 1/2).

We live in a world of increasingly distributed workforces. The $1bil software company I worked for in USA eventually let our entire business unit start working from home because it was cheaper. The result? People living all over the country, doing higher quality of work than they did in the office, and happier doing it.

In my present situation, our company has people working from Scotland, England, Africa, South-Asia, Southeast-Asia and occasionally USA/Canada. Would I prefer having the entire team within a rock throw from me in Glasgow? Of course.

The education, skills, experience, training and work ethic of the people employed dwarfs what I could find nearby for under 30K a year, possibly much more. I am able to, with a bit of effort, find awesome writers, SEO staff, project managers, PPC specialists, etc from almost any country in the world.

The issue boils down to: Am I willing to pay someone a premium because of their post code?

For my type of business, the answer is: NO

 

[Chunkford]

Problem is that they are now tied in and so is the client unless he has a new site built - but because of the way that site is built, guess what? - yep - NO Export tool - its been removed.

Anything's possible with a bit of creative thinking

 

[captaincloser]

What would I know...except a good friend showed me his new website recently and it was all I could do NOT to say Chezc Republic. Its often very easy to see where someone has been hoodwinked by 'outsourcing' outside the UK.

If it is genuinely not imporant to tell you cient you are simply a broker and not his web designer then it's equally true to say that if it's not important then you should tell your client you are going to fire the work off to some distant shore.

The fact is it IS important and what you neglect to say in this thread is that it's important to YOU that brokering is being done but not being said to be done.

'Outsourcing' is a lovely word but not a good one if you hoodwink your client that you are doing the work that YOU have been paid to do and then firing it abroad-

 

[SuffolkDesigns]

'Outsourcing' is a lovely word but not a good one if you hoodwink your client that you are doing the work that YOU have been paid to do and then firing it abroad-

By not advertising the fact that some or all of the work may be outsourced I would not say that I am "hoodwinking" my clients.

If I used freelancers in the UK 100% of the time would I still, in your opinion be "hoodwinking" clients by not telling them upfront that I outsourced the work?
Is every UK company that employs Polish people here in the UK hoodwinking their clients by not telling them this?

I have used a Bulgarian developer in over 400 projects, a Ukrainian in over 200 and have no problem telling clients this if they ask.
During an initial consultation with a client, I do tell them that I have access to a range of talented freelancers that I have worked with for a long time, and that I always pick the best people for the job.

I have on several occasions put the client in direct contact with the developer.

Unfortunately there are freelancers all over the world that are not capable of providing the level of work they promise, and some that will also set out to deliberately rip people off. But to say that people should not outsource because of this is ridiculous.

Don't hire a builder because there are some dodgy ones around. Don't buy a car from a 2nd hand car dealer because a friend of a friend had a bad experience. The list is endless.

As with many things in life it is a case of "buyer beware" Do some research, ask for references, check them out and get a few quotes.

And I find it quite insulting to be told that I am "Hoodwinking" clients by not making a point to tell them upfront the nationality of the person that will be doing some of the work for them.

 

[captaincloser]

[quote=Suffolk Designs;2029071]

And I find it quite insulting to be told that I am "Hoodwinking" clients by not making a point to tell them upfront the nationality of the person that will be doing some of the work for them.[/quote]

I am sory you find it "quite insulting" but as you can see above your quotation from my message is actually a misquote. Firstly I make no mention of 'nationality' I refer to subcontracting work to another company offshore. Yours are preposterous analogies. I am talking about sub contracting..it could be to your neighbour or the man in the moon. I believe people are often misled and it is perfectly OK for me to have an opinion. I canot and will not help you with your feelings of insult when you are insulted by something that wasn't written

More pertinently, your quote, and its even in your post, is "If you hoodwink" and please understand that the word IF in common parlance is quite a qualifier in the sentene "If you hoodwink..."..it does not assume everyone hoodwinks...but thats stangely how you read it, n'est pas ?

 

[SuffolkDesigns]

I feel less insulted now, thanks
The reason for the initial feeling of insult was that some comments in this thread imply that everyone who outsources are misleading their clients, All I am trying to do is show that this is not always the case. I, like many others who outsource work to freelancers, have the utmost respect for my clients, some of whom have been clients for 12 years plus, and would never mislead a client to gain a few extra £'s of profit.

 

[j600com]

There was a big thread before about webcreationuk and people complaining that they shouldn't be called webcreationuk when the work is done in India. I agree with others on here where they say bad developers aren't just in India there are bad UK developers too. But in my experience those who do farm out projects to India or Eastern Europe would rarely mention it on their site/as part of the pitch as they know it would put people off. At the end of the day it's about quality control, and controlling developers on the other side of the world isn't easy and often things get lost in translation/quality slips. I don't think it's hoodwinking someone to say your Suffolk design and then actually get the design done outside of Suffolk, but it would be if you'd implied it was UK development when it isn't. But that's the same as anything, it's ultimately the buyers responsibility to ask - and your responsibility (if you feel really strongly about it) to educate them and tell them to ask these questions when shopping around.

 

[SuffolkDesigns]

I don't think it's hoodwinking someone to say your Suffolk design and then actually get the design done outside of Suffolk

I never really thought of that before! lol

I guess in the future we may be legally obliged to put a "made in china" sticker on websites, or as is quite often my case "made in 50%UK, 25% Ukraine & 25% Bulgaria"

 

[webgeek]

It gets really confusing when your staff are from UK, Ukraine and Bulgaria, but are living in UK.

Or if your staff are from UK, but living abroad.

What does it take to qualify as UK design? UK residents? UK citizens? etc...

 

[captaincloser]

OK. Let's make this personal ))

When all you guys make a fortune you may decide to buy a yacht. Now say I advertise in Yachting monthly with an address in Chichester and saying that I 'do' yachts and you call me up and I come and see you with all the info on yachts.

You decide to buy one and we do a deal. All the while I have not informed you that I am the front man for a firm of yacht builders in Kackzakistan. The boat is delivered and we are all happy. All cool.

Until something goes wrong and you find out your yacht was not made in Sussex but on the side of a goat mountain by shepherds whose real occupation is shepherding but they did an internet course in yacht building.

Would you be a happy bunny with me ?

Methinks not.

 

[SuffolkDesigns]

OK. Let's make this personal ))

When all you guys make a fortune you may decide to buy a yacht. Now say I advertise in Yachting monthly with an address in Chichester and saying that I 'do' yachts and you call me up and I come and see you with all the info on yachts.

You decide to buy one and we do a deal. All the while I have not informed you that I am the front man for a firm of yacht builders in Kackzakistan. The boat is delivered and we are all happy. All cool.

Until something goes wrong and you find out your yacht was not made in Sussex but on the side of a goat mountain by shepherds whose real occupation is shepherding but they did an internet course in yacht building.

Would you be a happy bunny with me ?

Methinks not.

**makes note not to buy yacht from captaincloser
And you said I used " preposterous analogies"

 

[j600com]

I wouldn't be happy if my Danish bacon was actually from UK farmers

 

[SuffolkDesigns]

I wouldn't be happy if my Danish bacon was actually from UK farmers

Would it still be Danish bacon if the Pigs were Danish, but reared and farmed in the UK?