True Sales people no longer exist...

[Lucan Unlordly]

Well, that's the conclusion I've reached having yet again made a very live enquiry about a new piece of machinery to be told that a sample of the product it puts out, worth about 10p, is not available. Not, 'not available today', just 'no we have nothing to send out'!

20 minute call, no details taken, no we'll stick a brochure in the post, no directing to refurbished items that they pride themselves on selling, payment terms etc., etc.,

The item cost, £25k. The salesman, the national sales manager! Quite simply unbelievable..........

 

[Deleted member 335660]

It certainly is but I am sure there are some good ones around too.

My guess is it was not a sales person on the phone but some grumpy receptionist.

 

[MBE2017]

There are some good ones left, but probably more bad ones around. I blame the companies, most invest in no training for new or existing staff. Salespeople need constant training IMO, unfortunately most companies under estimate how skilled and important these staff are, until they are going bust.

 

[estwig]

I'm a very good salesman, always have been, very casual, I like people, I like helping people.

I deal with a lot of enquiries, quickly filtering out those that aren't going anywhere by asking simple questions, which allows time to be spent on positive enquiries.

 

[J Arnold]

I've been in sales 20 years, I consider myself a competent sales person.

I've lost count the amount of times "sales" people don't ask basic questions. Went to buy a car with the wife and the guy there was just an order taker, no questions at all. Didnt even show us around the car?!

Needed a suit two weeks ago for a sales conference I was attending, again no questions. Asked if they had a suit liked in stock and was just told "no" and he walked off. Not even a "we dont have that one but we do have.."

It's got to the point where I'm considering starting a company to offer sales training to these big nationals as it's shocking the (not even) basic level some are at.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

So many sales persons called into my office to sell me something, but none had even bothered to look at our web site to see what we actually did, they did not know any technical details of their products they were selling, never smiled and never asked pertinent questions

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

It certainly is but I am sure there are some good ones around too.

My guess is it was not a sales person on the phone but some grumpy receptionist.

The Receptionist, having taken my enquiry, put me through to 'the best person to advise me on that particular product'.
Reflecting on the salesman's response, he also used an analogy about another piece of equipment they sell and how companies that used to sub work out are now bringing in house. I'd already told him we sub that type of work out, so he couldn't even see his own lead generation.?

I'm a very good salesman, always have been, very casual, I like people, I like helping people.

I deal with a lot of enquiries, quickly filtering out those that aren't going anywhere by asking simple questions, which allows time to be spent on positive enquiries.

When running the advertising sales department for a national newspaper, one of the first instructions I made to the sales team was to treat every enquiry with equal importance. Why? Because some of them hadn't got the ability to filter out good from bad. The most experienced salesperson was great at bringing in immediate and last minute business but would neglect anything that was likely to come to fruition farther down the line.

 

[estwig]

The Receptionist, having taken my enquiry, put me through to 'the best person to advise me on that particular product'.
Reflecting on the salesman's response, he also used an analogy about another piece of equipment they sell and how companies that used to sub work out are now bringing in house. I'd already told him we sub that type of work out, so he couldn't even see his own lead generation.?

This is a great example of people when making a sales enquiry, assuming the person taking their enquiry wants the business, this guy clearly didn't. He tried to steer you towards something he did want to sell you.

People always assume theirs is the only enquiry in the World that matters, they also assume the person taking the enquiry should be, very, very, grateful, to get that enquiry!

Sales is a meeting of two or more, it is a mutually beneficial arrangement between two parties, it is not about a salesman being ever so grateful!

 

[MBE2017]

Sales is a meeting of two or more, it is a mutually beneficial arrangement between two parties, it is not about a salesman being ever so grateful!

Totally agree.

I have often suggested a competitor, or offered a high price to politely lose an order. It is easier than arguing about the awful reputation for non payment a company might have for instance.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

This is a great example of people when making a sales enquiry, assuming the person taking their enquiry wants the business, this guy clearly didn't. He tried to steer you towards something he did want to sell you.

People always assume theirs is the only enquiry in the World that matters, they also assume the person taking the enquiry should be, very, very, grateful, to get that enquiry!

Sales is a meeting of two or more, it is a mutually beneficial arrangement between two parties, it is not about a salesman being ever so grateful!

I guess I made the foolish mistake of assuming that as the company has a sales manager, an inviting website inviting potential customers to make an enquiry and spends tens of thousands attending every relevant exhibition to demonstrate their product to generate leads, that they were seeking my business?

The salesman didn't try to steer me towards another product, he used it for an analogy. He didn't hear what I said because he was useless. Why would he want to sell me a stapler when I enquired about buying a pen?

A salesman who is not grateful for an enquiry is an order taker.

Out of interest, at what point of an enquiry do you decide that you don't want a customers business?

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

Totally agree.

I have often suggested a competitor, or offered a high price to politely lose an order. It is easier than arguing about the awful reputation for non payment a company might have for instance.

Wouldn't you have had to ask the name of the person/company making the enquiry to get that far?

 

[MBE2017]

Wouldn't you have had to ask the name of the person/company making the enquiry to get that far?

You made the same foolish mistake as above of making the assumption I hadn’t.

As for when do I decide when I do not want business? Sometimes from the first words spoken in the wrong tone, the nice thing about being self employed I don’t have to take any rubbish from anyone, if I choose not to. Sometimes it can take a lot longer, but something I learned many years ago, trust your gut instinct, it is rarely wrong.

The reason companies have websites etc is to gain business, but not necessarily welcome every inquiry, many clients are not the right profile to make a good fit, as mentioned before, it takes two to tango. Just as you can choose not to use a company, they can choose not to sell to you as well. Apple for instance do not sell to a local corner store, do they?

Good salespeople like enquiries, good ones use their time to make the maximum return for themselves and their company. Why waste time on inquiries which have been shown to be a waste of time? There is plenty of business out there, find someone who wants to work with you on the right terms.

 

[estwig]

Out of interest, at what point of an enquiry do you decide that you don't want a customers business?

I ask a lot of leading questions, the slightest thing I don't like the sound of, I give the prospect a polite excuse and I back away.

The big two for me are, I won't travel more than a couple of miles for work, driving my car about is an inefficient use of time. The slightest hint that someone thinks they will own me, just because they've paid me some money, there are a lot like this, I'm gone!

I have always believed it is better to spend time looking for good clients, than it is to take on bad ones.

I am at a place in my life, where I'd rather be playing tennis than working, this has a bearing on which clients I choose.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

You made the same foolish mistake as above of making the assumption I hadn’t.

As for when do I decide when I do not want business? Sometimes from the first words spoken in the wrong tone, the nice thing about being self employed I don’t have to take any rubbish from anyone, if I choose not to. Sometimes it can take a lot longer, but something I learned many years ago, trust your gut instinct, it is rarely wrong.

No I didn't. You had to get as far as knowing the company name to know that they had an awful reputation for payment,...or own a crystal ball?

I cannot recall ever putting myself on a pedestal where the tone of somebodies voice was more important than asking relevant questions to determine whether I could get some valuable business out of them.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

As for when do I decide when I do not want business? Sometimes from the first words spoken in the wrong tone, the nice thing about being self employed I don’t have to take any rubbish from anyone, if I choose not to. Sometimes it can take a lot longer, but something I learned many years ago, trust your gut instinct, it is rarely wrong

I think what he is trying to say is that when you have more control you give more value to yourself and you expect others to value you at the same rate if you know what I mean !

 

[MBE2017]

I cannot recall ever putting myself on a pedestal where the tone of somebodies voice was more important than asking relevant questions to determine whether I could get some valuable business out of them.

Then you lie to yourself.

Everything you see and hear from clients and prospects decides how you look at them as potential clients and credit risks. If you simply take a credit report as fact, you will lose money. If you make assumptions you will lose money. If you only use one method, you will lose money.

You asked, I gave my answer. I’m not really bothered if you agree with my methods, I just answered your question. I simply said, it could be as simple as the tone of a conversation, that is not the only method I use, just the one I mentioned.

Anyway, you seem to think if you make an inquiry you should receive what you want. IMHO, as long as you are treated politely and professionally, that’s it, that’s all you can expect. Only you can decide if that happened, like I mentioned there are plenty of bad salespeople along with the good ones.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

Everything you see and hear from clients and prospects decides how you look at them as potential clients and credit risks. If you simply take a credit report as fact, you will lose money. If you make assumptions you will lose money. If you only use one method, you will lose money.

You are disappearing up your own backside fast here?

Determining the value of an enquiry, 'sometimes by the first words spoken in the wrong tone' is and can only be an assumption, and yes, like the Bentley car dealer who shows the door to the dishevelled millionaire by assuming he can't afford one, it will cost you money.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

I think what he is trying to say is that when you have more control you give more value to yourself and you expect others to value you at the same rate if you know what I mean !

I think the difference of opinion comes about as I've worked at the coal face of an industry where you have to actively look for business on a daily basis, where pre-determination of a customers value without considerable patience and investigation - selling - means you don't survive.

A customer only brings value to you if you can add value for them. It's the salesman's job to explain the latter.

 

[Paul FilmMaker]

Out of interest, at what point of an enquiry do you decide that you don't want a customers business?

UK video production here.

Just as an aside, we consistently turn down a specific type of work. The type of video production which, er, gets stains on our very expensive lenses.

We want to do video production which helps businesses sell more not, the type which, er, well, I'll leave to your imagination...

 

[SillyBill]

It does make me wonder sometimes. Makes you value your key suppliers and partners even more given the fact that even getting a price or sample, let alone a quality product or service at the end of it is a battle.

The best example I have is trying to get a new carpet fitted in a reasonable sized 2 floored office. Still not done incidentally as I gave up after contacting about 4-5 companies, these days you basically have to beg them if they'd be kind enough to consider doing the job for us. Of them 1 turned up to do the measuring then never heard back from them after he spent half a morning doing all his measurements. The funny thing is one of the companies is actually our neighbour (business lines up to our perimeter fence in any case), must've rang them about 4-5 times and no-one answered. God knows how they stay in business. We're the sort of business that would not look twice at a quote for something as minor as office furnishing in terms of cost, only criteria being if we think they'd have half a chance of turning up and doing the job.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

Contrasting call today, to another company that manufactures the same type of equipment I've been looking at buying. They are sending me samples, have offered to do test samples of items I hope to be able to run through it, gave a good overview including reasons why the next model up may be more useful, (YES selling!) invited me to their showroom to see the machine in action and took my details so somebody could contact me in a couple of weeks to answer any questions and secure a sale.

 

[stugster]

A good salesperson qualifies their leads.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

A good salesperson qualifies their leads.

Good salespeople come in all shapes and sizes and some of the best don't see the need to qualify leads. They can sell to anyone and see all as prospects.

Allowing salespeople to qualify their own leads can have it's pitfalls.

All subjective of course. A 5 minute phone call or a 100 mile round visit will doubtless impact on whether the lead needs qualifying up front.

 

[stugster]

A 5-minute phone call is still a pointless 5 minute waste of time if you're not qualifying the lead.

 

[estwig]

Good salespeople come in all shapes and sizes and some of the best don't see the need to qualify leads. They can sell to anyone and see all as prospects.

If you believe that, you clearly can't sell!

 

[MBE2017]

Good salespeople come in all shapes and sizes and some of the best don't see the need to qualify leads. They can sell to anyone and see all as prospects.

Allowing salespeople to qualify their own leads can have it's pitfalls.

All subjective of course. A 5 minute phone call or a 100 mile round visit will doubtless impact on whether the lead needs qualifying up front.

As a salesperson, I always qualify my own leads, and any qualified by someone else. Years ago, when commissions were much higher, you could afford to travel and take regular bad leads offsetting against the odd good one.

With today’s lower commissions and much higher travelling costs, you would be a fool not to qualify them. Anyone can sell to anyone, the trouble is they cannot do it regularly enough to make a living at it. Much better to find the salesperson who helps a prospect buy.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

If you believe that, you clearly can't sell!

How ironic that you've made a statement without first questioning and qualifying mine.?

Get your ruler out and see how you measure up?

Local advertising freesheets, zero sales experience to manager of two titles in 2 years.

National DIY Brand. Top region, turnover and profit out of team of 8 for 4 years.

Sales Rep on national daily, promoted to Display Sales Manager in 3 months and took department 40% over target in 7 months, personally selling the biggest single order in the papers 100 year + history. £180k!

Regional Radio sales rep. Sold the empty for 10 months Breakfast show spot within 3 weeks of starting, Drivetime as soon as it became available, Sport Bulletins which hadn't been sponsored before. Multiple new business over 3 year period.

Started my own business from scratch, have 1200 paying customers/subscribers to whom I sell products to on a daily basis.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

A 5-minute phone call is still a pointless 5 minute waste of time if you're not qualifying the lead.

If a 5 minute call is a waste of time why is cold calling so successful?

You don't always need to qualify a lead up front and in many cases are stupid to do so.

 

[Annoying Donkey]

If a 5 minute call is a waste of time why is cold calling so successful?

You don't always need to qualify a lead up front and in many cases are stupid to do so.

This always makes me laugh... Define "so successful"...?

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

This always makes me laugh... Define "so successful"...?

Errr...you knock on a door, make a phone call and say 'would you like to buy what I'm selling' and they say 'yes please'

 

[Paul Norman]

Even in these forums, I read the question 'How can I get a sales person whilst paying them sod all?'

There are good sale people around. They command good salaries. Lots of businesses have yet to work that out, including, potentially, the one you rang.

 

[estwig]

How ironic that you've made a statement without first questioning and qualifying mine.?

Get your ruler out and see how you measure up?

Local advertising freesheets, zero sales experience to manager of two titles in 2 years.

National DIY Brand. Top region, turnover and profit out of team of 8 for 4 years.

Sales Rep on national daily, promoted to Display Sales Manager in 3 months and took department 40% over target in 7 months, personally selling the biggest single order in the papers 100 year + history. £180k!

Regional Radio sales rep. Sold the empty for 10 months Breakfast show spot within 3 weeks of starting, Drivetime as soon as it became available, Sport Bulletins which hadn't been sponsored before. Multiple new business over 3 year period.

Started my own business from scratch, have 1200 paying customers/subscribers to whom I sell products to on a daily basis.

What you describe is order taking, they contact you and place an order, it might be called sales, mainly because order taker doesn't sound very exciting.

This isn't sales, that's why you don't need to qualify your leads. There isn't a working relationship to be formed with someone, you simply take their order and move on.

 

[Annoying Donkey]

Errr...you knock on a door, make a phone call and say 'would you like to buy what I'm selling' and they say 'yes please'

Except that's not what happens in most cases...
There's nobody home.
They say F-off
They keep you talking while having no intention of buying.... plenty of Youtube videos of people wasting cold callers time...

So how many sales can you make on average per day while wearing out your shoe leather or spending all day on the phone...?

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

What you describe is order taking, they contact you and place an order, it might be called sales, mainly because order taker doesn't sound very exciting.

This isn't sales, that's why you don't need to qualify your leads. There isn't a working relationship to be formed with someone, you simply take their order and move on.

LOL, your deluded...

I won't rise to the bait

 

[Mark T Jones]

I wonder how people define 'true' sales people?

From experience, the type of sales peple who describbe themselves as 'good' or 'natural' sales people are generally a PITA - the tye who get the phone put down on them as soon as they start trotting out their learned closing techniques.

The people I buy from are likely to be calm, considered and take time to listen and - above all - give me time to buy.

Relating to my own industry, the hard sales people are little short of con artists. I actively use a long-arm approach to establish whether prospects are worthwhile or not. The real ones will go along with it - the blinkered ones will rush off to the con artists.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

Except that's not what happens in most cases...
There's nobody home.
They say F-off
They keep you talking while having no intention of buying.... plenty of Youtube videos of people wasting cold callers time...

So how many sales can you make on average per day while wearing out your shoe leather or spending all day on the phone...?

In most cases people receive a leaflet through their door and bin it. In many cases people record a TV programme so that they can fast forward through the adverts. In many cases people don't read every advertisement on the underground, don't take advantage of special offers in restaurants etc.,

But enough do to make it worthwhile.

Cold Calling is the same...

So what's your point?

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

I wonder how people define 'true' sales people?

My definition is somebody who treats every lead like gold dust.

I could put plenty of analogies up where so called worthless leads have come up trumps.

 

[Mark T Jones]

My definition is somebody who treats every lead like gold dust.

I could put plenty of analogies up where so called worthless leads have come up trumps.

I've no idea what you sell, but if I treated every lead like gold dust, I'd promptly become the world's busiest fool.

 

[MBE2017]

I wonder how people define 'true' sales people?

From experience, the type of sales peple who describbe themselves as 'good' or 'natural' sales people are generally a PITA - the tye who get the phone put down on them as soon as they start trotting out their learned closing techniques.

Too many closed minds, I can see both sides.

From my point of view, a true salesperson is someone who can read their client, form a relationship and help them buy something they want or need, in a way they feel comfortable with.

Many like Mark like the more gentle considered approach, others like the fast harder to the point grab them by the throat style.

I like to think I have done most levels and types of sales, from selling on the door, to closing £10 million plus deals. I have sold simply by talking to someone walking past myself, to spending a year and a half building a relationship before trying to close a deal.

End of the day, it is all selling.

As for another poster asking how much cold calling actually makes, I rarely got told F off in ten years in cold calling, most people were in when I called. I haven’t done that style for 15 years now, but last time I made circa £90k pa, but I only worked three and a half days a week.

Never look down on any kind of sales approach, the simple truth is, all methods work some of the time, all methods can fail some of the time. Sales is 90% about attitude and state of mind, if you expect to sell you more often than not do, if you expect not to sell, well, you are normally right.

 

[Mark T Jones]

Too many closed minds, I can see both sides.

From my point of view, a true salesperson is someone who can read their client, form a relationship and help them buy something they want or need, in a way they feel comfortable with.

Many like Mark like the more gentle considered approach, others like the fast harder to the point grab them by the throat style.

I like to think I have done most levels and types of sales, from selling on the door, to closing £10 million plus deals. I have sold simply by talking to someone walking past myself, to spending a year and a half building a relationship before trying to close a deal.

End of the day, it is all selling.

As for another poster asking how much cold calling actually makes, I rarely got told F off in ten years in cold calling, most people were in when I called. I haven’t done that style for 15 years now, but last time I made circa £90k pa, but I only worked three and a half days a week.

Never look down on any kind of sales approach, the simple truth is, all methods work some of the time, all methods can fail some of the time. Sales is 90% about attitude and state of mind, if you expect to sell you more often than not do, if you expect not to sell, well, you are normally right.

Totally agree with this.

Most of the cold call hate derives from those terrible scripted, genertic call centre ones.

Professional, empathetic cold calling remains very effective.