Tips for employing good staff. Pay peanuts, get monkeys?

[Tombo46]

As a few of you know I own a greengrocers and we are making the jump into eCommerce shortly. I'm hoping (fingers crossed) that everything goes well and I will need extra staff. Unfortunately employing and managing staff is one of my major failings in business. The last lad I employed stole £30,000 from me over the course of 3 years and the last woman I employed I ended up having an "emotional" affair with. Fortunately the latter hasn't caused any problems in the business (yet).

In our trade we are all friends and I will sometimes visit them in their shops when passing to either say hello or just to see how they operate out of pure interest. A couple of them I notice have fantastic staff and I can't help but wonder what it is they are doing that I'm not? I often thought about paying more but I honestly can't see that making a difference for what is, an unskilled job. I have spoken to people who having given staff an increase in wages but none of them have reported any long term benefits from it.

Also in regards to contracts etc I am clueless. What is the best way to protect myself if I feel the need to get rid of rubbish staff? How does the whole "0 hour contract" thing work? We have quiet times and busy times like everyone else but I still keep my staff in more hours than is ideal during the winter as I don't want to see them out of pocket. Unfortunately they don't really understand that I'm doing them a favour here.

One of my staff is fairly old and for the most part I am just paying her to sit at a till and serve. I am worried because she is not moving forward with the business. I can't involve her in the on-line side of the business at all as she simply doesn't understand it or the technology. When customers say "I hear you're going in to online ordering soon" she say's "Who's told you that? I didn't know anything". I also want to upgrade my till system but there is no way she would be able to use it. Trading standards have even made me buy new scales that weigh in kilo's instead of lb and oz and I'm dreading having to teach her how to use them.

Anyway. This has become a bit of a rant so I'll get straight to it!

How do you go about sourcing good, honest staff? What incentives do you use to keep them happy and working hard? Do you have a certain interview process? What contracts/terms do you impose on their employment with you? Is there any general tips that you have in regards to managing them? I find it very difficult to gain respect as I always become far too friendly (also because I'm only 27). I'm a friendly guy and can't imagine not being this way with people I work with all day. How do you be "friends" with your staff without them taking advantage? My staff seem to start out good and slowly deteriorate to the point where "work" is simply "being at a place of work".

Sorry for the essay! Any tips on how I can improve this side of my business would be great. When it comes to buying/selling fruit and veg I'm a natural, it's just everything else that comes with it I'm crap at!

 

[emmylou74]

Managing people is a big skill. You can do it and still be friendly but its a different kind of friendly - these people work for you they are not your friends as such.

When I was employed by other companies I was always started on a temporary contract and I had to earn my right so to speak to get to permanent. I can see why places do this - you really get a good feel for work ethics. I think also having a training scheme in place and a monthly review will help keep staff motivated.

I would get some professional HR help with your older member of staff and see if it is possible to get a change of contract that means if they are not perfoming and meeting their goals set out to them, and even after given the chance to improve - then you can let them go. I am sure there are HR businesses out there that can give you proper legal advice on that so you are not breaking any employment laws.

 

[Mayor]

We invite handwritten applications only, initial "meeting" interview followed by 1 full day "working" interview (for which we pay them). Then 3 month trial period, followed by 12 month fixed contract, followed by permanent contract. Appraisals every 3 months. All legal and proper. We also take a hands on approach to training and motivation - we take them to the trade shows, pass on freebies we get from reps, and treat them to fairly regular "jollies" - pizza & pub nights etc.
We have been doing this for years, are still no better at guessing how well (or how badly) things pan out, and still find it an utter minefield. BUT - our staff ARE our business, nothing else is as important to us.
Don't forget, of course - you are the Boss - they are the Staff - be as friendly as you like, but it doesn't hurt to remind them of this from time to time.

 

[pen2670]

The obvious answer seems to be to ask one of the other businesses you are on good terms with if they could help you with recruitment, then maybe go on a management course to help you find the balance in managing them without becoming too good a friend. Is that something you would feel comfortable with?

 

[Gallows]

see employing someone as a series of steps. You have to attract, select, train, motivate then at some point let go.
Be clear with yourself on the type of person you are looking for, Its sounds like you want friendly, outgoing people with a good work ethic and a great attitude. You can't train any of these characteristics, they have to have them already. So when it comes to selection, that is what you are looking for, not experience of shops, or fruit and veg, or customer service etc as that can all be trained. If what you are looking for is not there, move on to the next one and don't compromise on your ideal. Try using the steps laid out by Mayor, so you get chance to see them in action. We have had a number of people over the years that didn't work out, in each case I can look back and see that I compromised at the beginning and thought they would be okay. Be open to the idea of students, school time, part time, temporary people, so long as they fit your criteria.
We never use incentives, I don't believe employees should be given bonus for doing their job, but I do reward when a good job is done with whatever seems appropriate to the individual. Sometimes extra in their pay, or a bottle of bubbly, tickets to a panto etc. If you want to introduce a bonus scheme, base it on the performance of the business.
Sit down with people who are giving you cause for concern and let them know. Get to know the legal steps you need to take to get rid of an employee, it is not difficult if you follow the correct process and do it sympathetically.
Employing people has its difficulties, and is a fact of life for most businesses.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Zero hour contracts will get you the most desperate people who are probably also the worst employees, why on earth would anyone accept on unless turned down for all other jobs

Employ a expert to pre judge the applicants for you which will cut out the worst and give you a good starting position, Give them a try at serving, the happy ones should show up whilst the nervous ones may never get more confident and you need outgoing people

 

[Paul_Rosser]

Money is hardly ever a motivator if you only want to employ staff who fit in with your company then you first need to work out what the companies values are and then employ staff with the same or similar.

Every management book I've read says that you should employ based on attitude and values and not just on the skills the person has, which is where most companies go wrong they stick a load of people together for 8 hours a day and just expect them to get on.

 

[Tombo46]

Apologies for the delayed reply! I've read all of your posts and will reply "properly" as soon as I have time. Things went a bit mental recently like they do!

Thanks again =]

 

[solent66]

I saw a great YouTube video on recruiting the other day. I highly recommend you look it it (he goes into more detail in his latest book). I'll be trying it for the first time tomorrow.

You sound like you may be being too much of a walkover. You need to be polite and civilised with your staff but ultimately you're their boss and not their friend. Don't be afraid to clamp down on unacceptable behaviour. Do that and the good ones will actually respect you more and stand by you. The bad ones will either leave of their own accord or give you ammunition to help you get rid of them.

There's plenty of HR advice on the internet, though obviously pretty generalised. But stick to advice from legal websites and be very wary of that from forums (irony accepted). For disciplinary stuff follow the ACAS codes of conduct and you *should* be okay.

You can buy generic contracts online for much less than a lawyer will charge for a custom one.

And be careful with the elderly lady. Anything which smells of age discrimination can get you into serious trouble. Can she be redeployed to something she's better capable of? I have 70+ lady on staff who's dreadful on the tills (but won't admit it) but she's also a font of knowledge and takes a lot of time to befriend customers and help them out.

 

[fairdealworld]

"Give them a try at serving, the happy ones should show up whilst the nervous ones may never get more confident and you need outgoing people"

Well yes you should definitely try them out in situ rather than just relying on an interview. I'm not sure though if the nervous have no prospect of improvement. The apprentice I took on last year was never exactly nervous or shy but she was very quiet at the start, very polite with customers but not chatty. Over the weeks and months she changed a lot. Having a job and succeeding at that job and being valuled in that job brings people out of themselves. My ex-apprentice, now my assistant, who often 'minds' the shop while I'm doing other things, is now an 'Apprentice Ambassador' for the local authority and she's already stood up and spoken at a school meeting to promote apprenticeships. One point she made to the people who recruited her for this role is that she has changed personally as a result of having a job and being an apprentice. She is now very confident and chatty with customers and I know that some are disappointed if they come into the shop and it is her day off!

There are all sorts of reasons for appointing someone to your team. Integrity/honesty is a core issue which is not readily taught (I'm not saying it can't be just that it is a challenge) and willingness to learn as opposed to what people already know is a good thing to look for when considering a new member of a team.

In respect of those who are already on your team. I'd suggest that you harden your heart a little. You feel a bit inhibited by the fact that you are in your twenties and you are trying to teach people a lot older than you - maybe decades older. It may shock you but personally I'm not terribly sympathetic to your older employee whom you dread trying to teach to use the new system. One of my reasons for my lack of sympathy is that I'm in my sixties and I can keep up with technology, unless someone is suffering from dementia or a similar condition age in itself is no particular reason for not being able to learn something new, in fact to some extent learning should become easier as you get older because you've so much previous experience and learning as a foundation. I don't mean be nasty to your employee but don't give in to the 'I can't be expected to learn' card. Your employee can learn and must learn if she wants to stay your employee. If you find it difficult to be hard in this way just meditate on the fact that your employee could well live for another 30 or 40 years and she's going to find life remarkably difficult if she's given up on learning this early.

 

[kelvin1950]

It may shock you but personally I'm not terribly sympathetic to your older employee whom you dread trying to teach to use the new system. One of my reasons for my lack of sympathy is that I'm in my sixties and I can keep up with technology, unless someone is suffering from dementia or a similar condition age in itself is no particular reason for not being able to learn something new, in fact to some extent learning should become easier as you get older because you've so much previous experience and learning as a foundation. I don't mean be nasty to your employee but don't give in to the 'I can't be expected to learn' card. Your employee can learn and must learn if she wants to stay your employee. If you find it difficult to be hard in this way just meditate on the fact that your employee could well live for another 30 or 40 years and she's going to find life remarkably difficult if she's given up on learning this early.

I couldn't agree more, I'll be 65 next birthday. We are the technology generation, no-one has seen the advancements that we've seen, apart from those who lived through the industrial revolution. There is no reason at all for people not to embrace technology, apart from apathy or lazyness. I have a customer who must be in her 80s and who comes in every now and then to ask me questions about her Ipad!

 

[FirstClassVirtualOffice]

You get these people who claim they are no good with computers, can't do email etc, (when you've asked to do something) then they whip out their iphone, mention they trade on ebay shop and have a facebook page!

I think they choose to learn the things that interest them and quickly ignore what they can't be bothered with and then use the excuse of being a technophobe!

It's like those customers who say they don't have much money then you watch them get into an expensive car, and the address they send you for the £50 invoice is on millionaires row in your town! They do make me chuckle!

....oh and then they say they will pay it when they get back off holiday!!

 

[Newchodge]

I think it is interesting that you see fantastic staff in other settings, and at the same time describe the role as 'unskilled'. If some staff stand out there must be some skills involved, even if you don't recognise them as skills. For example making sure that customers enjoy their time in the shop, chatting to them, knowing that their grandson has just passed his driving test etc. If all you expect of shop staff is to stand at a till and take the money, and restock the shelves as necessary, then that is all you are going to get.

How about thinking about what makes you believe those other staff are fantastic, work out how that could translate into your shop, and recruit for those qualities.

You also need to employ staff who do what you want. If you need staff who are comfortable discussing the online development, and helping customers to use it, you need to train existing staff to do that. If they genuinely cannot carry out the role that you need, you have to consider if they have a role with you.

There is a danger of 'nice' employers designing jobs to match their employees' skills, rather than jobs that match the employer's needs. That is fine if you are big enough to have staff working to their own skill set, but most small businesses need staff to do what is required.

Good luck.

PS How is the refit going?

 

[sirearl]

I couldn't agree more, I'll be 65 next birthday. We are the technology generation, no-one has seen the advancements that we've seen, apart from those who lived through the industrial revolution. There is no reason at all for people not to embrace technology, apart from apathy or lazyness. I have a customer who must be in her 80s and who comes in every now and then to ask me questions about her Ipad!

Afraid science would not agree with you.


"Edward L. Thorndike reported that the ability to learn declined very slowly and very slightly at about 1% per year after age twenty-five. Until then, adult educators had mostly operated under the notion that "you can't teach old dogs new tricks".

But later studies by Lorge revealed that the decline was that of speed of learning, not intellectual power, and that even this was minimized by continual use of the intellect (Knowles, 1980). Therefore, to say that one's ability to learn peaks at a young age and then tapers off slowly is generally true for most individuals,"

 

[kelvin1950]

Afraid science would not agree with you.


"Edward L. Thorndike reported that the ability to learn declined very slowly and very slightly at about 1% per year after age twenty-five. Until then, adult educators had mostly operated under the notion that "you can't teach old dogs new tricks".

But later studies by Lorge revealed that the decline was that of speed of learning, not intellectual power, and that even this was minimized by continual use of the intellect (Knowles, 1980). Therefore, to say that one's ability to learn peaks at a young age and then tapers off slowly is generally true for most individuals,"

As an ex IT trainer for a large multinational I'd have to say "Rubbish" to that.

Science is like statistics IMO.

 

[kulture]

I have deleted the last few posts as they are dragging the thread off topic. Please resume on topic and stop the argument about science and statistics and the ability of people to learn.

 

[Tombo46]

Managing people is a big skill. You can do it and still be friendly but its a different kind of friendly - these people work for you they are not your friends as such.

When I was employed by other companies I was always started on a temporary contract and I had to earn my right so to speak to get to permanent. I can see why places do this - you really get a good feel for work ethics. I think also having a training scheme in place and a monthly review will help keep staff motivated.

I would get some professional HR help with your older member of staff and see if it is possible to get a change of contract that means if they are not perfoming and meeting their goals set out to them, and even after given the chance to improve - then you can let them go. I am sure there are HR businesses out there that can give you proper legal advice on that so you are not breaking any employment laws.

I feel like I have a moral obligation to keep her on but at the same time I want to take care of my business. She has since said to an old member of staff who is a friend "I know he wants rid of me" so it's not exactly a secret. I think she is 78 now and she has been with us so long I feel like I owe it her to keep her on. One of my main worries about "getting rid" of her is how it will sit with my current customers. Many of which she has befriended over the years. Even though nothing has been said I feel like I'm being blackmailed in some way as if I do make an attempt then she will just badmouth me to all my customers. Like you said though. Maybe a professional HR company can help prevent this sort of thing.

We invite handwritten applications only, initial "meeting" interview followed by 1 full day "working" interview (for which we pay them). Then 3 month trial period, followed by 12 month fixed contract, followed by permanent contract. Appraisals every 3 months. All legal and proper. We also take a hands on approach to training and motivation - we take them to the trade shows, pass on freebies we get from reps, and treat them to fairly regular "jollies" - pizza & pub nights etc.
We have been doing this for years, are still no better at guessing how well (or how badly) things pan out, and still find it an utter minefield. BUT - our staff ARE our business, nothing else is as important to us.
Don't forget, of course - you are the Boss - they are the Staff - be as friendly as you like, but it doesn't hurt to remind them of this from time to time.

Seems like a good way to go about things. I need to do a bit of research into what is legal etc. I think the important thing is to be straight with them from the beginning and let them know exactly where they stand.

The obvious answer seems to be to ask one of the other businesses you are on good terms with if they could help you with recruitment, then maybe go on a management course to help you find the balance in managing them without becoming too good a friend. Is that something you would feel comfortable with?

Yes I'd definitely feel comfortable going on a management course. As for my friends. They don't seem to think they do anything special! Maybe they are just lucky or maybe they have a sterner attitude towards their staff as it comes more naturally to them. They are all much older than me so probably from a time when if you didn't do your job properly you were out.

see employing someone as a series of steps. You have to attract, select, train, motivate then at some point let go.
Be clear with yourself on the type of person you are looking for, Its sounds like you want friendly, outgoing people with a good work ethic and a great attitude. You can't train any of these characteristics, they have to have them already. So when it comes to selection, that is what you are looking for, not experience of shops, or fruit and veg, or customer service etc as that can all be trained. If what you are looking for is not there, move on to the next one and don't compromise on your ideal. Try using the steps laid out by Mayor, so you get chance to see them in action. We have had a number of people over the years that didn't work out, in each case I can look back and see that I compromised at the beginning and thought they would be okay. Be open to the idea of students, school time, part time, temporary people, so long as they fit your criteria.
We never use incentives, I don't believe employees should be given bonus for doing their job, but I do reward when a good job is done with whatever seems appropriate to the individual. Sometimes extra in their pay, or a bottle of bubbly, tickets to a panto etc. If you want to introduce a bonus scheme, base it on the performance of the business.
Sit down with people who are giving you cause for concern and let them know. Get to know the legal steps you need to take to get rid of an employee, it is not difficult if you follow the correct process and do it sympathetically.
Employing people has its difficulties, and is a fact of life for most businesses.

Thanks for the sound advice =] You are dead on with what I look for. Outside of those qualities there isn't really much more to the job other than time and experience in the job. As long as they tick all the boxes and have the ability to learn they should do fine.

I saw a great YouTube video on recruiting the other day. I highly recommend you look it it (he goes into more detail in his latest book). I'll be trying it for the first time tomorrow.

You sound like you may be being too much of a walkover. You need to be polite and civilised with your staff but ultimately you're their boss and not their friend. Don't be afraid to clamp down on unacceptable behaviour. Do that and the good ones will actually respect you more and stand by you. The bad ones will either leave of their own accord or give you ammunition to help you get rid of them.

There's plenty of HR advice on the internet, though obviously pretty generalised. But stick to advice from legal websites and be very wary of that from forums (irony accepted). For disciplinary stuff follow the ACAS codes of conduct and you *should* be okay.

You can buy generic contracts online for much less than a lawyer will charge for a custom one.

And be careful with the elderly lady. Anything which smells of age discrimination can get you into serious trouble. Can she be redeployed to something she's better capable of? I have 70+ lady on staff who's dreadful on the tills (but won't admit it) but she's also a font of knowledge and takes a lot of time to befriend customers and help them out.

If you could find the video that would be great!

I am definitely too much of a walkover. I have this fear that if I'm not nice to my staff they will dislike me and do a rubbish job. I'm fast learning that isn't the case though.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[Tombo46]

"Give them a try at serving, the happy ones should show up whilst the nervous ones may never get more confident and you need outgoing people"

Well yes you should definitely try them out in situ rather than just relying on an interview. I'm not sure though if the nervous have no prospect of improvement. The apprentice I took on last year was never exactly nervous or shy but she was very quiet at the start, very polite with customers but not chatty. Over the weeks and months she changed a lot. Having a job and succeeding at that job and being valuled in that job brings people out of themselves. My ex-apprentice, now my assistant, who often 'minds' the shop while I'm doing other things, is now an 'Apprentice Ambassador' for the local authority and she's already stood up and spoken at a school meeting to promote apprenticeships. One point she made to the people who recruited her for this role is that she has changed personally as a result of having a job and being an apprentice. She is now very confident and chatty with customers and I know that some are disappointed if they come into the shop and it is her day off!

There are all sorts of reasons for appointing someone to your team. Integrity/honesty is a core issue which is not readily taught (I'm not saying it can't be just that it is a challenge) and willingness to learn as opposed to what people already know is a good thing to look for when considering a new member of a team.

In respect of those who are already on your team. I'd suggest that you harden your heart a little. You feel a bit inhibited by the fact that you are in your twenties and you are trying to teach people a lot older than you - maybe decades older. It may shock you but personally I'm not terribly sympathetic to your older employee whom you dread trying to teach to use the new system. One of my reasons for my lack of sympathy is that I'm in my sixties and I can keep up with technology, unless someone is suffering from dementia or a similar condition age in itself is no particular reason for not being able to learn something new, in fact to some extent learning should become easier as you get older because you've so much previous experience and learning as a foundation. I don't mean be nasty to your employee but don't give in to the 'I can't be expected to learn' card. Your employee can learn and must learn if she wants to stay your employee. If you find it difficult to be hard in this way just meditate on the fact that your employee could well live for another 30 or 40 years and she's going to find life remarkably difficult if she's given up on learning this early.

Unfortunately she is playing the "can't be expected to learn" card. What I'm asking isn't overly complicated either. She gets confused easily and tends to blame the technology rather than herself with comments such as "The till's done this" or "The card machine just charged someone £20,000" and will never admit to actually making a mistake even when it's pointed out to her.

I think it is interesting that you see fantastic staff in other settings, and at the same time describe the role as 'unskilled'. If some staff stand out there must be some skills involved, even if you don't recognise them as skills. For example making sure that customers enjoy their time in the shop, chatting to them, knowing that their grandson has just passed his driving test etc. If all you expect of shop staff is to stand at a till and take the money, and restock the shelves as necessary, then that is all you are going to get.

How about thinking about what makes you believe those other staff are fantastic, work out how that could translate into your shop, and recruit for those qualities.

You also need to employ staff who do what you want. If you need staff who are comfortable discussing the online development, and helping customers to use it, you need to train existing staff to do that. If they genuinely cannot carry out the role that you need, you have to consider if they have a role with you.

There is a danger of 'nice' employers designing jobs to match their employees' skills, rather than jobs that match the employer's needs. That is fine if you are big enough to have staff working to their own skill set, but most small businesses need staff to do what is required.

Good luck.

PS How is the refit going?

To be honest I'd be happy with them just serving and re-stocking the shelves. It seems I have to choose one of the other haha. I get what you mean about skills. Life skills and people skills are a factor but I was more referring to it being a job they can walk into and learn as they go.

Seeing other shops with great staff may be a case of "the grass is greener on the other side" but they just don't seem to have the problems I do. they all stem from my own failings as a business owner which is reassuring as it means it's something I can personally fix.

At present we are not busy enough to train staff to do a job each. Some of these "better" shops however do have this luxury. They can give certain staff the responsibility of doing certain jobs. I can do this to a certain extent though I suppose.

The refit is going slowly but surely. It's been happening a while now but a lot of the time was actually spent setting up the workshop. I've started building now and things are going pretty quickly due to having the right tools! Just finished building 2 of these front display units out of old scaffold boards...



and I've made a test piece for the new ticket rails...





I've been more focused on the on-line side of things as of late as we are getting closer and closer to launching now =]

 

[solent66]

If you could find the video that would be great!

I don't think I can post links on here but it's called "10 Steps To Hire Better Salespeople" by Bob Phibbs. A search on YouTube will bring it up.
•

 

[solent66]

If am employee can't admit their mistakes I take it as a major red flag. Someone who does realise/admit when they are wrong will never improve and will just keep making the same mistakes. I just got rid of someone like that and it was painful but worth it in the end.

It won't help you with the elderly lady, but, if I'm right, you can dismiss someone in the first year with no notice and they can't take you to a tribunal either. You may want it written into your contracts as a 'probationary period' just to be on the safe side. But do bear in mind I'm not a lawyer though.

I'm curious whether you do a lot of the 'shop floor' selling yourself or hide out the back? Are you showing the staff what to do by example, and inspiring them you do better or leaving them to find their own path?