Thief contractor, must be paid?

[TubbyFunster]

I really need some sound advice please.

I run a small cleaning company where all the cleaners are self employed. This morning I received a call from a local business we clean saying the cleaning had been caught on CCTV stealing. I went to the place and sure enough there she is, a pair of trainers, a cutlery set and a huge pack of napkins. The resturant want me to reimburse them, which I will do, they have not gave me a fiqure yet. I have told the cleaner we dont need her services anymore but she wants her final pay. I want to pay the resturant and if there is any left give her it then. Can I legally do this? There is no written contract, but I can assure you its in hand from now on. You live and learn.

Thanks in advance.
Marie

 

[arcon5]

You could of course tell her you will pay her her wages but will pass on the CCTV footage of her crime to the police.

I'm betting she would walk away rather than risk prosecution.

 

[internetspaceships]

I'd have her nicked as a matter of principle.

 

[mhall]

I'm with Spaceships, call the police and get her nicked. Word will soon spread that you employ thieves and you need to act with strength.

 

[Suzuki]

I'd have her nicked as a matter of principle.

Exactly right, I would do the same.

On the wages issue, I suspect if she was an actual employee you would have to pay her no matter what she done, even if it was criminal acts caught on camera.

If she's self employed I think her only recourse would be through the Money Claim system via the courts?

 

[Retired_Accountant]

It's not worth the aggrivation of involving the police, besides I doubt they would do anything and you cannot report it anyway, only the customer can as the theft was from them, not you. As you're reimbursing them they wont want the hassle - giving statements, going to court, etc etc.

Deduct the money from her final pay andkeep a record of how much you deducted (receipts from the customer would be ideal). In return for reimbursing the customer you must insist upon them giving you the tape. That you need to keep safe so that if this cleaner tries to claim the deducted money you have clear proof of why you deducted it.

 

[internetspaceships]

I don't agree at all.

I'd inform the police and let them do whatever they need to. Theft shouldn't go unpunished.

 

[kyeb]

Hi Marie

A little off topic but I would be very careful with regard to engaging cleaners on a self-employed basis.

There is specific legislation (Categorisation of Earners Regulations) which stipulates that cleaners may be self-employed for tax purposes but that you have to pay national insurance as though they were employed.

This is geared towards 'office cleaners' but applies to cleaners engaged in a similar capacity other than cleaners at a private household.

I would give this some thought or run it by your accountant to ensure you don't end up getting stung by HMRC later down the line.

Kye

 

[Retired_Accountant]

I don't agree at all.

I'd inform the police and let them do whatever they need to. Theft shouldn't go unpunished.

The point is the theft wasn't from the OP. Its up to the resturant. Getting them involved with police, a court case, etc could alienate them. And the publicity of a trial in the local rag wont exactly do the OPs business reputation much good either.

 

[internetspaceships]

The point is the theft wasn't from the OP. Its up to the resturant. Getting them involved with police, a court case, etc could alienate them. And the publicity of a trial in the local rag wont exactly do the OPs business reputation much good either.

Unfortunately again I must disagree. The person who stole was representing the OP in the restaurant. Involving the police sends a confident message to the clients and prospective clients of the OP that this is not tolerated.

It would actually not be bad publicity for the OP to be seen as a company intolerant of theft by its representatives and if worked correctly with the restaurant owners it could actually become very positive PR.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

By paying for the stolen goods, you could well be seen as covering up the crime to protect your business name. I would really think about what you are proposing to do here.

 

[Retired_Accountant]

By paying for the stolen goods, you could well be seen as covering up the crime to protect your business name. I would really think about what you are proposing to do here.

There is nothing illegal in reimbursing a customer because of an employyes actions, even if those actions are illegal.
Similarly there is noithing illegal in not reporting a crime.

The only time not reporting a crime, or suspected crime, becomes an offence, is if that crime constitutes an offence covered by the money laundering regulations, and, if the employer works withing the regulated sector. Neither apply in this case.

 

[kulture]

A crime has been committed, I believe that it must be reported. It is down to the Police whether they want to pursue it, and the CPS whether to prosecute. I would feel uneasy if I had proof a crime had been committed and had not reported it.

RA is probably correct that the police/CPS will probably not prosecute. BUT its their decision.

Yes compensate the customer. Yes withhold pay and let them try to take you to court. BUT do not try to blackmail them by saying anything like "I hold the evidence so go quietly or else".

 

[mhall]

There is nothing illegal in reimbursing a customer because of an employyes actions, even if those actions are illegal.
Similarly there is noithing illegal in not reporting a crime.


It's not about illegality of reporting a crime, it's about having an ethical approach to business and making sure your customers and staff/contractors know that you will not tolerate anything that will put the good name of your business at risk.

 

[Mpg]

If they are self employed send the cleaner an Invoice for what you have reimbursed your client. Ask your client to report to the police and withhold your payment to the cleaner until all is sorted

 

[OldWelshGuy]

There is nothing illegal in reimbursing a customer because of an employyes actions, even if those actions are illegal.
Similarly there is noithing illegal in not reporting a crime.

The only time not reporting a crime, or suspected crime, becomes an offence, is if that crime constitutes an offence covered by the money laundering regulations, and, if the employer works withing the regulated sector. Neither apply in this case.

Thanks for the information, and while what you say is factually correct it is a straw man argument? Where did I say it was illegal?

I said he could be seen to be covering up a crime' which of course he is. I would appreciate it is you could point out where I made any suggestion or implication that any illegal act was being committed. I think you are being a little eager for confrontation

In business, all is not fair, and a competitor could well start a whispering campaign about the cover up (because that is what is being done)

 

[Retired_Accountant]

I think you are being a little eager for confrontation

I am merely trying to be the voice of reason in the face of what I would call "lynch mob mentality", and, using a lot of court room experience to look at how this might play out.

For instance, there is apparently a film which suggests that the cleaner stole certain items. However, is there actual proof that she took them from the premises, and that she intended to "permanely deprive the owner" of them (a vital element in theft charges).

Were these items found at her home perhaps? Not from what the OP says. Has she made a sworn statement confessing? Of course not because the police arent involved. Any other "confession" is inadmissable.

On a more human note, has anyone considered why she might have done this? The fact she is working as a cleaner in the first place would suggest some level of financial hardship. People do desparate and out of character things when threatened with repossession, bailiffs etc.

Assuming she doesnt have a long record of theft there is a good chance that for such a trivial offence, and, with some level of mitigation, she would quite possibly receive a conditional discharge.

Also, it is most unlikely that the court would make a restitution order for such a small amount, which means that the OP would NOT be able to deduct the money from her wages. Indeed if he did so after involving the police it could be argued that doing so amounted to witnss intimidation as defendants are witnesses in their own defence.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

I run a small cleaning company where all the cleaners are self employed.

Can I legally do this? There is no written contract, but I can assure you its in hand from now on. You live and learn.

Thanks in advance.
Marie

If there is no written contract how can you be sure that the cleaner's self employed status is legal?

 

[internetspaceships]

I am merely trying to be the voice of reason in the face of what I would call "lynch mob mentality", and, using a lot of court room experience to look at how this might play out.

If we were talking about putting her in the stocks or shaving her head and parading her in the streets, or chopping off her right hand I could agree with your comment about a lynch mob.

We're not, we are merely suggesting that she is reported and that due process is followed.

It's hardly being the voice of reason to let her get away with something that many people wouldn't sanction if it was a cleaner stealing from their own home.

If she gets a conditional discharge then so be it. Someone has to begin the process of marking a thief as a thief.

 

[kulture]

This is a business forum, not a social care. Although at times I suspect that an employer can at time be a confident, parent, friend, social worker etc. etc.

So for the sake of the business you have to compensate the customer and get rid of the cleaner and tell the police. I admit I would talk to the cleaner and find out why. I might take pity and pay the hours owed. But unless there was some exceptional excuse, that cleaner would never work for me again.

 

[internetspaceships]

This is a business forum, not a social care. Although at times I suspect that an employer can at time be a confident, parent, friend, social worker etc. etc.

So for the sake of the business you have to compensate the customer and get rid of the cleaner and tell the police. I admit I would talk to the cleaner and find out why. I might take pity and pay the hours owed. But unless there was some exceptional excuse, that cleaner would never work for me again.

Apologies Kulture but I cannot see any valid excuse at all for one of my staff stealing from a customer.

Not one single solitary valid reason. At all.

I'd pay the hours owed though, mark my words on that but they would never darken my door again.

 

[kulture]

Apologies Kulture but I cannot see any valid excuse at all for one of my staff stealing from a customer.

Not one single solitary valid reason. At all.

I'd pay the hours owed though, mark my words on that but they would never darken my door again.

Nor can I, but I always keep an open mind.

 

[internetspaceships]

My mind is open but I am struggling to be positive in any way, shape, or form about the alleged thief.

 

[kulture]

My mind is open but I am struggling to be positive in any way, shape, or form about the alleged thief.

I am not suggesting that your mind is not open. Like you I cannot think of any reason for theft that would excuse it. But as we have only heard one side, it is only fair to listen to the other side just in case there is a reason, other interpretation of the facts, however unlikely, that puts a different view.

 

[internetspaceships]

Apologies I wasn't having a pop Kulture.

I'm providing comments based upon the facts presented, not on what might possibly be the alternative side of the story. Otherwise how could any advice be given?

If anyone wants to post here and present the other side, I'll adapt accordingly but until then, its pointless to hypothesise.

 

[Retired_Accountant]

We're not, we are merely suggesting that she is reported and that due process is followed.

.

Firstly this is only an alleged crime, let's not forget, it is only alleged until a court has reached a verdict. Indeed to actually call someone a thief (or allege any other criminal activity without a conviction, is itself an offence of criminal slander, which differs from ordinary slander in that the slandered party is entitled to damages without having to demonstrate any financial loss.


Secondly, the "victim" is the restraunt and it is only they who can report this to the police. A report filed by any other party, such as the OP, would be ignored.


"Someone has to begin the process of marking a thief as a thief". "I cannot see any valid excuse at all for one of my staff stealing from a customer."

Such comments, indeed most of the comments in this thread, make me really pity the employees of those making them. The Dickensian attitude displayed by employers who, I would guess< considerably younger than me, make me cringe.


Perhaps if you paid your employees a better wage they would not be so desparate that they resorted to what is a fairly desparate act for items of a very small monetary value. So perhaps you are partly to blame.

Obviously you don't encourage loyalty from your staff. If you did then they might be more iclined to come to you if they have money problems rather than do such a desparate act.


For 40 years I've made it my business to look after my staff, and yes that has included lending them money, giving them paid leave to sort personal problems out, acting as a shoulder for them to cry on,and, making sure that we always pay our staff a good deal more than the competition and give them better benefits.


When sitting as a magistrate I've always taken the same approach. Yes the courts are there to "punish", but quite frankly that is, or should be, only a small part of the process. |I try to find out why people commit crimes, and if it's due to circumstances then I am always looking for ways to solve those problemns so that they dont offend again.


Of cvourse you cant always do it, but to my mind if I don't at least try then I would consider myself to be a pretty poor apology for a magistrate and a human being.


You know I've taken all sorts of people under my wing, usually "unofficially", after they've appeared before us - and not one of them has ever let me down. I've arranged for drug addicts to get treatment, I've helped desparate people find accomodation, I've helped women trapped in the sex trade by abusive partners to break away and get real jobs and homes for themselves and their children. Indeed one such girl (because that's all she was then) I helped, and she was my PA for 25 years and is Godmother to 2 of my daughters and is now happily married and a one of our closest friends.


I really do think that those commenting are too quick to condemn, too selfish to see if they might be partl;y to blame, and demonstrate an appaling lack of humanity and compassion.

 

[internetspaceships]

Dickensian attitude to staff? Haha I have to laugh. You know absolutely nothing about how I run my company or treat my staff. My staff know right from wrong and are treated extremely well.

They also know which lines they cannot cross. Theft being one of them. That's a pretty basic concept in a civilised society wouldn't you agree?

Thanks for the lecture in being good to people however you don't own the rights to doing this I can assure you, but on the evidence presented (so far) the lady is a thief.

You have your views on this of which you're more than entitled to, as do I, but I'm not about to try and sully your name because I disagree.

That's a pretty poor show of debating skills.

 

[paulears]

If they are self-employed, then the cleaner will invoice you. If you don't pay, she can take you to court where your reason being aired in court would perhaps lead straight towards a prosecution. I really can't think she'd go to County Court and tell them that being caught for stealing is not a good reason for refusing to pay.

Bring your business into disrepute could also be something action can be considered over?

 

[Suzuki]

Secondly, the "victim" is the restraunt and it is only they who can report this to the police. A report filed by any other party, such as the OP, would be ignored.

Why do you keep saying this... its simply not true.

Anyone can bring a crime to the attention of the police and they are going to look into it. They might not actually want to... but you can force the issue and make them if it would suit your own ends to do so.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

Whenever low level theft by a low paid employee is mentioned it's 'bring back the birch', 'call the old bill', 'hang em high'......

When you, as businessmen reflect on the times you defrauded the exchequer by failing to pay VAT or failing to charge VAT on services provided do you share the same view or is that still the less righteous path that we don't discuss on here?

 

[internetspaceships]

When you, as businessmen reflect on the times you defrauded the exchequer by failing to pay VAT or failing to charge VAT on services provided do you share the same view or is that still the less righteous path that we don't discuss on here?

Never did it.

 

[Retired_Accountant]

They also know which lines they cannot cross. Theft being one of them. That's a pretty basic concept in a civilised society wouldn't you agree?
.

There it is again, the Dickensian attitude. Condemn them without a trial and throw out onto the street to starve.

If you actually listened and understood what I'm saying you might understand that there are a thousand different reasons why people commit what you view as "crimes".

For all you know this woman could have been forced into it by an abusive partner demanding money for his next "fix" and threatening her life if she didnt come up with the money. Do you know for certain something like that was not the case? Maybe she is in debt to some loan shark who is threatening to swcar her if she doesnt pay up. But of course, you don't care about that, not even enough to at least find out before you condemn.

Tell me hand on heart, have you ever fiddled your taxes? Ever put a petrol receipt that you found on the floor through your books, or claimed as a business meal a meal with your wife? Or taken £20 from a customer and stuck it in your pocket instead of through the till? Of course you have, there isnt a businessman in the world that hasnt.

Well guess what - that makes you a thief because by underdeclaring your tax liability you STOLE from every taxpayer in Britain.

Still wanmt to throw the firstr stone ?

 

[Suzuki]

Whenever low level theft by a low paid employee is mentioned it's 'bring back the birch', 'call the old bill', 'hang em high'......

When you, as businessmen reflect on the times you defrauded the exchequer by failing to pay VAT or failing to charge VAT on services provided do you share the same view or is that still the less righteous path that we don't discuss on here?

But theft by an employee in these circumstances (i.e. the victim being a client) has potentially massive repercussions - its easy to see how someone stealing a £50 item from a client could lead to job losses.

 

[Retired_Accountant]

But theft by an employee in these circumstances (i.e. the victim being a client) has potentially massive repercussions - its easy to see how someone stealing a £50 item from a client could lead to job losses.

Oooops - double standards.

 

[Suzuki]

For all you know this woman could have been forced into it by an abusive partner demanding money for his next "fix" and threatening her life if she didnt come up with the money.

Then a police investigation will exonerate her, and the real culprit will have to pay - but nobody is going to be held accountable if it isn't reported in the first place.

 

[Suzuki]

Oooops - double standards.

I'm not saying one is right and one is wrong... they're both obviously wrong. Just one has potential catastrophic outcomes for everyone else working there, the other doesn't.

 

[internetspaceships]

If you actually listened and understood what I'm saying you might understand that there are a thousand different reasons why people commit what you view as "crimes".

I can assure you that I'm both listening and understanding what you're saying RA. I just don't agree with what I'm hearing.

Tell me hand on heart, have you ever fiddled your taxes? Ever put a petrol receipt that you found on the floor through your books, or claimed as a business meal a meal with your wife? Or taken £20 from a customer and stuck it in your pocket instead of through the till? Of course you have, there isnt a businessman in the world that hasnt.

Well guess what - that makes you a thief because by underdeclaring your tax liability you STOLE from every taxpayer in Britain.

Still wanmt to throw the firstr stone ?

Sure I'll throw the first stone because I never have done any of those things. We had a PAYE inspection 4 months ago and the HMRC people actually pointed out things we should be claiming and weren't.

We had the same scenario at our last VAT inspection.

I'm a firm believer that the more tax you're paying, the more you're earning.

Over to you.

 

[Suzuki]

I'm a firm believer that the more tax you're paying, the more you're earning.

Thats a saying I don't often hear in Monaco

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

I'm not saying one is right and one is wrong... they're both obviously wrong. Just one has potential catastrophic outcomes for everyone else working there, the other doesn't.

Are you serious?

Both are wrong, one is accepted, one is not........... both have catastrophic outcomes, one is obvious the other hidden...

I have a mate, a successful businessman who moans about tax dodgers but will still do cash jobs for 'friends'.... He's fairly typical of many people running small businesses.

Double standards prevail....

 

[Suzuki]

Are you serious?

Both are wrong, one is accepted, one is not........... both have catastrophic outcomes, one is obvious the other hidden...

Please tell me what the catastrophic outcomes are of a random businessman taking his wife out for a meal and putting it through the books as a client meeting then.