The ridiculousness of P&P

[Call Assistant UK]

I just have to have a rant, and may get shot down by other suppliers.

Basically, I am trying to purchase goods online at pennies. Reason I am doing it online, is I know that my local supplier doesn't have what I am looking for.

The goods are costing around 35p, and I am happy for them to be posted via Royal Mail first class which would cost the price of stamp.

I am being charged £5 P&P from practically every site, so I thought, its generic. I called 2 of the sites and asked if they could process it manually and just charge the correct postage.

Due to company policy, they had to be dispatched via their preferred shipping method, which one of them told me was Royal mail.

So, is P&P more a handling charge than actual P&P these days?

Surely we should start referring to Handling Fee rather than P&P?

Sorry for the rant....

 

[vvaannmmaann]

A good point.We had something sent from one of the big shopping channels.£5.95 P+P it was sent via the Post Office.I sent it back as it was faulty,£2.70 via the Post Office.
I realise they had to buy the box,the poly filling and someone to put it in the box.But it does seem expensive to me.

 

[Andy Walpole]

I remember Royal Mail actually tried to take legal action around this issue years ago but didn't succeed. It's just a way of businesses to add an extra surcharge on top.

 

[Call Assistant UK]

I see the point of standardising things so one price for all. I also see the point of paying someone for the labour. And I am happy to pay for something like that, but being totally out there, it kinda makes me think of the whole bank charge situation, does it really cost £32 to send a letter, just the same, does it really cost £5 to send an envelope.

Anyway, I got what I needed off ebay, might wait an extra week, but only got charged 98p P&P

 

[sysops]

The goods are costing around 35p, and I am happy for them to be posted via Royal Mail first class which would cost the price of stamp.

I am being charged £5 P&P from practically every site, so I thought, its generic. I called 2 of the sites and asked if they could process it manually and just charge the correct postage.

Due to company policy, they had to be dispatched via their preferred shipping method, which one of them told me was Royal mail.

So, is P&P more a handling charge than actual P&P these days?

You say a first class stamp - are your goods a standard letter size? Or perhaps more like packet size?

Do you expect these goods to be packed in old newspaper, or perhaps in a box?

You really need to get over it - although £5 is a bit high, most retailers have a standard P&P, regardless of order value. Customers on the whole prefer this - they know how much P&P they will be paying, instead of waiting to find out half way through the checkout.

 

[Call Assistant UK]

Thanks SYSOPs, I'm over it now

But if you read my previous post, you will see the point I was trying to make. ;-)

 

[sysops]

But if you read my previous post, you will see the point I was trying to make. ;-)

Not only did I read it, I responded to it too.

What are the alternatives? Think about it from a retailer's perspective, what should they do?

We offer Standard Delivery at £3.99. The cheapest item we sell is £0.69. Does that mean we expect people to buy a 69p item and pay £3.99 P&P? Of course not - we expect them to put together an order that is a sensible size to justify the P&P. But if they choose to buy a 69p item on its own, that's their choice - but the only way we make money on that sale is by having this base P&P.

 

[Liybpg]

P&P really doesn't matter - it is just another way of 'packaging' the price. On some websites VAT is not included, on some - P&P. This could be a little dishonest, but is expected in some industries (especially b2b). If they charge 5 quid for 35p item it is a bit mad, but you will just have to look for a company which charges less.

 

[Call Assistant UK]

I did think about it from the retailers perspective, thats why I said I would probably get shot down - Alas.

And your right, its my choice to only buy something at 69p if I choose, but my point, if there was one in my rant, P&P or Handling fee? The goods I was looking for, easily fit into a standard DL envelope, so the P&P on that product is not £5.00, however a handling fee could be.

Its really semantics agreed, But I liked Andy's response who told me something I didn't know.

 

[NuBlue]

Surely P&P covers the cost to the company of delivering items whcih I thought would include:

Staff costs
Packaging costs
Cost of % returns
travel costs (if they need to take items to a post/sorting office)
and of course alittle profit to make it all worthwhile.

Surely £5 is about right for this. It would cost you more to go to your local town (in fuel and parking) to pick it up yourself surely?

But I take your point, it does look a bit daft to pay more for the sending of a product than the product itself!

 

[sysops]

I did think about it from the retailers perspective, thats why I said I would probably get shot down - Alas.

And your right, its my choice to only buy something at 69p if I choose, but my point, if there was one in my rant, P&P or Handling fee? The goods I was looking for, easily fit into a standard DL envelope, so the P&P on that product is not £5.00, however a handling fee could be.

Meaningless argument, beyond semantics.

P&P means postage and packing/packaging. That's two elements - postage is self explanatory, but what is packing/packaging, what does that mean? Does it mean literally the cost of the box? Or perhaps the cost of the box plus retail margin? Or the labour cost of packing the item in the box?

 

[alanc]

Not to mention the cost of storing 30 different box & envelope sizes to cover a range of products.

Each retailer sets their own price for P&P, based on what it actually costs and what their competitors are charging. It has to be paid for somewhere down the line. If you reduce the P&P charge, you have to increase the product cost.

 

[letterboxunlimited]

I know a lot of on-line retailers who sell the items at cost and only make money from the postage and packaging. It seems most people will compare unit cost but not the final price.

 

[tony84]

I charge a set price on my site for P&P sometimes i lose because it costs me more, sometimes i win because it costs me less.

If it was one of those things which someone brought to my attention and it wasnt too much hassle then i would credit their account, but thats because im small enough to be able to do that. Some larger companies its hard for to happen.

 

[KidsBeeHappy]

I used to have a village shop. I sold milk at £1.28 for 2 litres. Some local's used to drive 8 miles up to the nearest safeway two or three times a week to buy milk at £1.08 for 2 litres, because it was "cheaper".

People also still think that the costs per mile of using a car is simply the price of the fuel.

People never ever take their own time, mileage, driving expenses into account when working out the cost of their purchases, except when they're business people that work on an hourly charge rate basis. And thats a habbit brought over from the real world into the online world.

I had to buy broccoli one time in that next village, we worked at the time on the basis of a £60ph charge rate for my husband's business, I had 2 children with me, and it took near on 40 minutes. I worked out that that £1.60 bit of broccoli had probably actually cost me around £44!

 

[saxondale]

Not only did I read it, I responded to it too.

What are the alternatives? Think about it from a retailer's perspective, what should they do?

We offer Standard Delivery at £3.99. The cheapest item we sell is £0.69. Does that mean we expect people to buy a 69p item and pay £3.99 P&P? Of course not - we expect them to put together an order that is a sensible size to justify the P&P. But if they choose to buy a 69p item on its own, that's their choice - but the only way we make money on that sale is by having this base P&P.

can I collect it in person?

 

[sysops]

can I collect it in person?

We get asked that quite a bit (amazingly). The answer is no. For a whole load of reasons, but the main ones being:

- Our warehouse is not insured for members of the public

- We have no means of accepting payment in person

 

[saxondale]

We get asked that quite a bit (amazingly). The answer is no. For a whole load of reasons, but the main ones being:

- Our warehouse is not insured for members of the public

- We have no means of accepting payment in person

so your cheapest product is actually £4.68


can I buy the widget elsewhere?

 

[KidsBeeHappy]

All the "elsewheres" went bust because people wanted to pay 69p online as opposed to £1.29 from a bricks and mortar store, complaining that it was easier to buy it online because they didn't have to pay for parking

 

[sysops]

so your cheapest product is actually £4.68


can I buy the widget elsewhere?

Yes, both online and on the high street.

Online you'll pay pretty much the same elsewhere. In shops you can find it at 69p.

 

[sysops]

so your cheapest product is actually £4.68

Not really - if you buy 10 of them, you pay:
10x 0.69
1x 3.99

If you buy 100 of them (people do)
100x 0.69
1x 3.99

 

[saxondale]

Yes, both online and on the high street.

Online you'll pay pretty much the same elsewhere. In shops you can find it at 69p.

so your what, nearly 10times more expensive than the cheapest option?

Not really - if you buy 10 of them, you pay:
10x 0.69
1x 3.99

If you buy 100 of them (people do)
100x 0.69
1x 3.99

I only want to buy one, your minimum amount is one - your minimum price is £4.68.





how big is the object?

 

[sysops]

how big is the object?

I know where you're going with this, but I'll play along to illustrate the point.

It's about the size of a packet of cigarettes.

 

[KidsBeeHappy]

Point is - where else can you go simply to buy 1 item, and how much will it cost you to buy it elsewhere - online or offline.

 

[saxondale]

Point is - where else can you go simply to buy 1 item, and how much will it cost you to buy it elsewhere - online or offline.

dont forget to allow for the loss of future capacity in the laptop battery multiplied by time spent surfing to find the object.

argument works both ways, end of the day Synops is more expensive but claims to be cheapest.

name for that IIRC.

 

[sysops]

argument works both ways, end of the day Synops is more expensive but claims to be cheapest.

name for that IIRC.

You do what now? Where is that claim?

We claim nothing of the sort - we advertise products at a price which allows us to operate profitably as a business. People who want them buy them. People who don't don't.

We could offer lower delivery charges for smaller orders - you see this all the time - something like:

For order values £0 - £10, P&P = £1.20
For order values £10 - £20, P&P = £3.00
For order values £20 - £30, P&P = £4.50

This is utter foolishness. It does 2 bad things:

1. It penalises your bigger spending customers, where you should be encouraging them.

2. It actively shifts your order values down (as a result of 1)

3. It put off a percentage of potential customers, who look at the numbers and can't work out what they would need to pay.

Numerous surveys have shown that customer prefer a flat P&P, and that's the model most large online retailers use.

 

[Lee Jones Jnr]

I can't see why there is such a problem. If you consider the P&P to be too high then don't buy. Vote with your feet (or mouse) and take your business elsewhere.
P&P does not mean the cost of postage, many other things must be taken into account and the vendor may charge whatever they wish for this. The laws of supply and demand ensure that a balance will be found.

 

[OhSoCherished]

So we offer two delivery options...

Standard £3.99
Anything under £6.99 we offer free delivery

or P&P if you will.

When I'm looking for something small and cheap that I cannot get on the high street I just can't justify paying £3.99 for a £1 product so I thought my customers wouldn't either.

However, sysops I kind of agree with what you are saying as we are experiencing some of your comments about lower volume carts. It's something we are re-looking at.

Sarah

 

[sysops]

Standard £3.99
Anything under £6.99 we offer free delivery

EEEEEEEKKK!

OMG. If we did that, I doubt we'd last more than a couple of months.

You're in a better position, because a larger % of your lines are over £6.99, but you will still be losing money unnecessarily, and penalising customers who wish to buy 2x £6 items in one go.

 

[saxondale]

You do what now? Where is that claim?

We claim nothing of the sort - we advertise products at a price which allows us to operate profitably as a business. People who want them buy them. People who don't don't.

We could offer lower delivery charges for smaller orders - you see this all the time - something like:

For order values £0 - £10, P&P = £1.20
For order values £10 - £20, P&P = £3.00
For order values £20 - £30, P&P = £4.50

This is utter foolishness. It does 2 bad things:

1. It penalises your bigger spending customers, where you should be encouraging them.

2. It actively shifts your order values down (as a result of 1)

3. It put off a percentage of potential customers, who look at the numbers and can't work out what they would need to pay.

Numerous surveys have shown that customer prefer a flat P&P, and that's the model most large online retailers use.

you state your cheapest product is £0.69p when it is in fact £4.68p



end of argument.

 

[sysops]

you state your cheapest product is £0.69p when it is in fact £4.68p



end of argument.

Erm...

You said "Synops is more expensive but claims to be cheapest"

How is that equivalent to "our cheapest product is 69p"?

 

[saxondale]

Erm...

You said "Synops is more expensive but claims to be cheapest"

How is that equivalent to "our cheapest product is 69p"?

you really aren`t getting this -



I want to buy a widget

Synops advertises it @ £0.69p

B & R the well known retailer also advertise it at £0.70p








whats your final cost going to be?

 

[Dawg]

How much P&P should I expect to pay on one 69p saxontroll?

 

[saxondale]

How much P&P should I expect to pay on one 69p saxontroll?

yes very good, or in other words someone who may just have a different opinion.


but what do I know about sales?

 

[sysops]

you really aren`t getting this -



I want to buy a widget

Synops advertises it @ £0.69p

B & R the well known retailer also advertise it at £0.70p








whats your final cost going to be?

Yes, but in real-world scenarios there are lots of considerations.

 

[saxondale]

Yes, but in real-world scenarios there are lots of considerations.

yes, no ....................... doesnt matter

 

[kevin555]

Offering free P&P on orders below a certain amount seems rather foolish - I used to do it the other way! Spend over £40 and get free delivery.

Similar to sysops thinking in that it drives the customer to buy more rather than less.

I think the car boot cheapskates who flog rubbish on ebay want to bring everyone else down to their level when moaning about reasonable levels of P&P. It's called building a sustainable business model - not playing at part-time ecommerce.

I worked out it costs at least £1 in time just to pack an item excluding any postage or box, never mind all the back-office work filling out all those government forms and paying for utilities etc. An item retailing at £5 (and probably up to about £10) would actually cost me money. That does not make business sense. Forget about acquiring customers if all they're going to buy is a £1 widget once a year!

In general, I make sure all new products retail at £12.99 as a minimum (on rare occasion I will break this rule).

I think that instead of complaining about the high cost of P&P you should be thinking, wow that's saved a few hours of my precious time - I won't have to waste my weekend hunting down a widget that may not be available locally anyway.

 

[Liybpg]

why does price of the item matter so much? You can select very light weighted products and offer discounts for them if you want. Cheap product can still be bulky and expensive to post. If it happens to be cheap and light, high postage costs are not very justifiable. It may get a little complicated but you can measure final weight of all purchases and charge P&P accordingly, but I don't think it is necessary as it may only get more confusing.
Anyway, how often do you buy something for 69p online?

 

[saxondale]

Offering free P&P on orders below a certain amount seems rather foolish - I used to do it the other way! Spend over £40 and get free delivery.

Similar to sysops thinking in that it drives the customer to buy more rather than less.

I think the car boot cheapskates who flog rubbish on ebay want to bring everyone else down to their level when moaning about reasonable levels of P&P. It's called building a sustainable business model - not playing at part-time ecommerce.

I worked out it costs at least £1 in time just to pack an item excluding any postage or box, never mind all the back-office work filling out all those government forms and paying for utilities etc. An item retailing at £5 (and probably up to about £10) would actually cost me money. That does not make business sense. Forget about acquiring customers if all they're going to buy is a £1 widget once a year!

In general, I make sure all new products retail at £12.99 as a minimum (on rare occasion I will break this rule).

I think that instead of complaining about the high cost of P&P you should be thinking, wow that's saved a few hours of my precious time - I won't have to waste my weekend hunting down a widget that may not be available locally anyway.

spoken like a true "online retailer"

meanwhile the real world are just thinking "what fool is going to pay £3.99 more than the items available anywhere else ......... I`ll just pick one up next time I`m in town"

 

[saxondale]

why does price of the item matter so much? You can select very light weighted products and offer discounts for them if you want. Cheap product can still be bulky and expensive to post. If it happens to be cheap and light, high postage costs are not very justifiable. It may get a little complicated but you can measure final weight of all purchases and charge P&P accordingly, but I don't think it is necessary as it may only get more confusing.
Anyway, how often do you buy something for 69p online?

How about, you go to fill your car up with petrol and the sign outside says £1.10 a ltr but when you get to the pump the small print says "plus £3.99 for use of our pump"




isnt that annoying?