Stolen debit card - advice needed

[Bathead]

I need a bit of advice for my father-in-law, as at the moment i'm just plain fuming and may just rant in the morning if i don't have a bit of sound advice.

He went shopping in Tesco's and had his wallet stolen at the till after paying cash for his goods. When he got home he noticed and the first thing he did was ring up Nationwide to cancel his direct debit card. He then went to the branch to make sure it was cancelled as he worries about these things. They told him not to worry as no funds had been touched. Police were also informed etc

A few days later he checks his balance and over £700 is gone, £300 on day one and £400 on day 4. He has gone back into the branch who have liaised with head office and they have bluntly told him he won't get a penny back, saying that he must have kept his pin with the card.

For the record he doesn't carry his pin and he usually only withdraws money from the counter at Nationwide. But I do think that that is a side issue because if he cancelled his card surely they are responsible, end of?? Even for the £300 if the timings are right on day 1.

Please tell me i'm right ?

 

[PI Guy]

what was the nature of the transactions? are they saying that they withdrew money or that they spent money on the card? did he keep the pin with the card in the wallet?

In any case he needs to look carefully at the t&c's to check where the liability is.

 

[shivas]

Presumably the card was used for cash withdrawals at an ATM meaning the pin number must have been written down and kept in the same wallet. Under normal circumstances he wouldnt have a leg to stand on. However the card was cancelled with the bank before the transactions took place and this is key. He should get all the money back from his bank as the card was used fraudently AFTER he had cancelled it.
Likewise, if they were debit card transactions with a retailer he should get the money back after the normal fraud dept checks are carried out by the bank.

 

[Bathead]

thanks guys.

He did not carry the pin. The first money was ATM and the second was a spree in Argos.

 

[PI Guy]

and how do you assume he was able to take the money out?

 

[Mattonella Tile Studio]

Hmm interesting. It is technically possible for a cancelled card to be used in an ATM when cancelled if the link to the bank is down. Each card has an inbuilt limit that will automatically be authorised up to a certain amount if the link is down, so the cardholder is not denied access to funds that they have. In 5 years I never came across the situation occurring but tis possible. Regarding the debit transaction, perhaps it was under the floor limit to seek authorisation.

Re liability. As PI Guy says, whomever took the money out must have known the PIN. That will be the issue as to whether it was left with the card, written down, or somehow not taken care of. As we know, fraudsters have many tactics to find out somebody else's PIN. All he can really do is to state everything he has/hasn't done to make sure that his PIN couldn't have been found out.

CARE: the bank will try to trip him up to admit somehow that he has not taken care of the PIN. (Trust me, I was good at it , but now I've got morals and don't work there anymore!!)

 

[shivas]

There is no possible way of taking cash from an ATM without having access to both card and pin. Though it doesnt matter -previous response still applies

 

[Zeno]

Could it be whoever stole the card watched him enter his PIN when he was at the supermarket?

 

[visagephoto]

Isn't the pin recorded on the magnetic strip and therefore, easily retrieved or changed using a suitable piece of (readily available) hardware?

 

[Bathead]

He is het up, and being Italian has taken a bit to get the full details.

Well it just gets worse. We had a suspicion that he sometimes carries his pin etc but actually he does not know how to use a cash point. Guess what my wife just spoke to him and he is sitting there holding his UN-OPENED pin number. We have told him to take it to the police as some sort of evidence that he has not been neglectful with his pin.

 

[Zeno]

He is het up, and being Italian has taken a bit to get the full details.

Well it just gets worse. We had a suspicion that he sometimes carries his pin etc but actually he does not know how to use a cash point. Guess what my wife just spoke to him and he is sitting there holding his UN-OPENED pin number. We have told him to take it to the police as some sort of evidence that he has not been neglectful with his pin.

If he does not know his PIN how can he use his card?

 

[Bathead]

If he does not know his PIN how can he use his card?

In my first post I said he paid cash for his goods in Tescos. I assumed he sometimes gets cash from the bank and sometimes uses the card. It turns out as by the last post he always walks down the bank and gets money out over the counter. He's old and always does what he's always done - no technology.

Actually he kept asking if his money was safe and was always told everything is ok and it took 2 weeks before they gave him a statement and brushed him off with "get in touch with Head Office"!!!!

 

[Zeno]

Ah, I see. Sorry, missed the bit about it being cash.

I would have thought then in his case that the bank will e able to look at his history and see he has never used an ATM or used a debit card transaction so that would indicate that his PIN his a damn sight safer than most peoples.

I did not realise you could still drawn cash without a PIN even in branch?

 

[Bathead]

I did not realise you could still drawn cash without a PIN even in branch?

to be honest I didn't but he's a bit of a character and always in there apparently and I guess they gave up trying to make him use the card.

I'm not sure what to think because this is really worrying that this has happened without an apparent pin?!?

 

[Zeno]

I would agree that it is worrying. As far as I am aware you can no longer sign in place of a PIN and certainly thought there is no way you can drawn cash without one.

 

[Blush]

You can draw using just your card without a pin.My daughter was a bit too eager when she got her first card a few months ago.She scratched the paper a bit too much to the point you couldn't actualy read the pin!
As I had already put her pocket money in she had no choice but to draw it out over the counter until a new pin arrived. She took her passport with her though for ID

 

[Jeewhizz]

I would agree that it is worrying. As far as I am aware you can no longer sign in place of a PIN and certainly thought there is no way you can drawn cash without one.

You can sign in some stores still. I had to at the Cadbury's store in Bridgend back in November...

 

[ServersandSpares]

I would agree that it is worrying. As far as I am aware you can no longer sign in place of a PIN and certainly thought there is no way you can drawn cash without one.

I bank with Barclays and never ever have I been asked for a pin to withdraw money over the counter, despite using two or three different branches.

I often shop in our local Tesco, and quite regularly have to sign the card as their system is always playing up.

I haven't used an ATM for 22 years after £800 was stolen out of my account at Yorkshire bank, and the bank swore blind I must have kept my PIN with my card, and I had a good memory back then, I didn't need to write it down and it seems I never needed to use an ATM again either.

Anything is possible where fraudsters are concerned, or lax practices for that matter.

 

[Bathead]

I haven't used an ATM for 22 years after £800 was stolen out of my account at Yorkshire bank, and the bank swore blind I must have kept my PIN with my card, and I had a good memory back then, I didn't need to write it down and it seems I never needed to use an ATM again either.

Well this is where my father-in-law must have a strong case - he has his un-opened pin letter. How can they argue against that??

 

[Simon-M]

He can complain to the banking ombudsman. They have the power to demand an audit for the bank. The banks don't usually like that because of their not so careful way of spending our money. He will have a good chance of getting his money back if he goes this route.

They will log your complaint with the correct people at the bank and the bank must respond. This is the first step.

Banking Ombudsman

Simon

 

[Bathead]

thanks Simon, i'll get him to give that a go.

I'll get him to pop in and says thanks when he next goes to Nationwide. On second thoughts no I won't, you'll never get rid of him!

...mmm, actually I could bribe you here.

 

[deniser]

Write a polite matter of fact letter setting out all the facts, get your father-in-law to sign it and send it to the branch with recorded delivery post. Reiterate that the pin to this day has not been opened and that you can produce the original upon request. Ask them to please credit the missing sums back to the account within 7 days otherwise you will refer the matter to the Banking Ombudsman.

I write these kinds of letters all the time when I have been wronged and they never fail to produce the required result. Try it and see. I'm happy to check it over if you like.

 

[mefirst]

Thats so harsh of nationwide!. Anyway he didn't have to write down his pin number. Criminals are using northeastfraudforum.co.uk/atmfraud although some branches now have measures to stop this, but not all machines. Cover your Pin up when entering!

 

[Bathead]

Thanks i'm on to it now.

By the way mefirst, he has never opened the envelope therefore nobody knows the PIN.

 

[Simon-M]

Thanks i'm on to it now.

By the way mefirst, he has never opened the envelope therefore nobody knows the PIN.

Just to be Devils advocate here, how many people recieve an envelope and don't open it?

Simon

 

[Zeno]

Just to be Devils advocate here, how many people recieve an envelope and don't open it?

Simon

Just to be the devil's devils's advocate, how do you know whats in it?

 

[Bathead]

My guess is a pin is not usually just in an envelope its inside a sealed up thing like some payslips. It doesn't take much figuring out that is what it must be even for an old guy. One letter card, one letter pin.

 

[Simon-M]

My guess is a pin is not usually just in an envelope its inside a sealed up thing like some payslips. It doesn't take much figuring out that is what it must be even for an old guy. One letter card, one letter pin.

Judge Judy would know how to deal with this

 

[Bathead]

Now going through the Banking Ombudsman as they rang but didn't write telling him where to go in response to the 7 day letter.

 

[deniser]

You should win quite easily - there was an article in the Times one day on the subject of debit card fraud which I read after reading your post and lots of cases were mentioned where people hadn't been careful with their pin number and they still got their money back after a fight. The old lady who hid her pin number in her house to be found by her son who stole her card got her money back as did people whose pin number had been read over their shoulders.

So if your father can prove he didn't open his pin letter then it should be a clear cut case. Keep fighting!

 

[Stonelaughter]

I should be interested to see a case like this fought in the Courts. I can see no way in which the bank's assertion that "You gave up your PIN so it must be your fault and therefore it's not fraud and we don't owe you anything" could possibly be lawfully enforceable. I can see the courts in your case and many others like it immediately finding against the banks simply on the basis that leaving your door unlocked does not make the burglary or the theft of items in your house legal. It's still theft whether or not you "left the door open", "gave away your PIN" or whatever.

The thing is, the banks say they'll refund your money if it's fraud or theft (as defined by the Fraud Act - they're insured against it). What you have to do is convince them to accept that it IS fraud or theft; which it clearly is and which the courts would also find. If you go the banking ombudsman route, you could be waiting a long time but you might also get compensation. If you go the court route, you (assuming you win, which you should) you will get back what was taken, plus interest at the County Courts Act rate of 8% per year simple, plus your court fees - and it'll be quicker.

Either way, I wish you the very very best of luck in "sticking it to them" as they're clearly "swinging the lead" as per flippin usual with our wonderful Banks!!!

 

[Mattonella Tile Studio]

I can see the courts in your case and many others like it immediately finding against the banks simply on the basis that leaving your door unlocked does not make the burglary or the theft of items in your house legal. It's still theft whether or not you "left the door open", "gave away your PIN" or whatever.

It would come down to reasonable care surely? The home insurance wouldn't pay out if you left your doors unlocked and somebody nicked your tv. That would still be theft, but you'd stand the loss.

 

[Stonelaughter]

It would come down to reasonable care surely? The home insurance wouldn't pay out if you left your doors unlocked and somebody nicked your tv. That would still be theft, but you'd stand the loss.

Home insurance wouldn't pay out because they only insure against reasonable risk. Leaving your house unlocked makes the risk unreasonable for them to insure against.

That does not stop theft being a crime and it will not stop the criminal being prosecuted.

In the Banks' terms and conditions it effectively says "if it's fraud or theft we'll pay you. If you were careless with your PIN it's not fraud or theft". This is not only factually incorrect it is also lawfully very shaky in my opinion - both "Fraud" and "Theft" are defined very clearly in the Fraud Act (2006?) and the terms and conditions of a bank account simply do not have the authority to override the Law.

 

[Cornish Steve]

The general rule: Never use a debit card when you could use a credit card. You can stop transactions on a credit card, and there's a clearly defined limit to your liability. Debit cards, on the other hand, are an open door to your entire bank balance. Debit cards are a terrible idea, and I really don't understand why they are popular.

Of course, none of this helps your poor father-in-law, and I'm sorry for the hassle you're going through. Once the mess is sorted out, I'd suggest he start using credit cards and cut up all debit cards.

 

[Mattonella Tile Studio]

I can think of 3 reasons why debit cards are popular off the top of my head

1) Some people don't like credit cards as they fear they'll get themselves into debt, debit cards help to prevent this
2) It's sometimes cheaper to buy with a debit card as opposed to a credit card, as some companies impose a handling fee on credit card
3) Some people aren't eligible for a credit card.

I'm afraid debit cards are here to stay.

 

[PFT]

1) Some people don't like credit cards as they fear they'll get themselves into debt, debit cards help to prevent this

Pre-payment card (Tuxedo etc)

2) It's sometimes cheaper to buy with a debit card as opposed to a credit card, as some companies impose a handling fee on credit card

Not allowed in retail unless under a certain limit

3) Some people aren't eligible for a credit card.

Pre-payment card (Tuxedo etc

 

[007tobs]

i was shopping in asda, paid at the till in cash and by the time i got to the car my wallet had gone. i phoned the bank within an hour to cancel my cards only to find out my card had already been used to witdraw £150 at an ATM immedialy follwed by £100. i remeber my pin, never made a copy or carried it with me.
the bank say they wont refund me and that i must have left my pin in my wallet. its so frustrating because i know there was no pin in my wallet. does anyone know how they do it so i can use the info to fight my case?
any suggestions\comments appreciated i dont know what steps to take next except for writing to bank with any additional info that the fraudsters can do it WITHOUT the PIN

Toby

 

[Delta-SI]

Pre-payment card (Tuxedo etc)

Those are just a scam though aren't they, don't you pay a percentage of each transaction to use them

 

[007tobs]

Hi Bathead how are you gettin on with the ombudsman?

 

[Dibs_h]

Not allowed in retail unless under a certain limit

Would you know what that is? I've seen it a lot and even in cases where 2.5% will be charged irrespective of whether you are buying something for £10 or £10k.