Starting up a small tour company

[workingNOMADdotcom]

I am planning on setting up a small weekend breaks business in the SW of England which will be weekend surf, hiking, kayaking packages involving overnight accommodation too (and maybe transport).

I plan on using local operators for the activities and source hotels etc.

Just a couple of questions to anyone who does this or may have industry experience.

- The AITO bonding is too expensive for start ups, however do you need some sort of license to run tours and put together packages? I am aware of the 1992 regulations for package tours and can comply with them. I guess I am just worried about liability etc

- In terms of transport, do you need a special license to drive fee paying people in a mini bus with less than 8 seats?

Finally I have a lot of experience in the online world and have a nice amount of capital to throw at this. I would be interested in partners for this enterprise.

Let me know if you are interested.

 

[vvaannmmaann]

Do you mean like these? What will your USP be? How will you stand out in what seems to be quite a crowded business area?

These were on Google first page,plenty more there.

http://www.outdooradventure.co.uk/activityweekends/index.php

http://www.cornishcoastadventures.com/

http://www.verticaldescents.com/cornwall/vertical-descents-stag.asp

 

[workingNOMADdotcom]

Yes I mean them.

Through my existing online business I already have quite a large presence in this area, thats partly why I am thinking of doing it, actually getting clients would be the easy bit for me, it's all the regulations and red tape that I am worrying about!

Thanks for the links though.

Sorry forgot to mention my USP..

Well it would be geared at singles and solos. I know of a couple of companies running similar and they are always booked out so I am sure there is a market there. I can also be competitive on price too.

 

[adventurelife]

I am planning on setting up a small weekend breaks business in the SW of England which will be weekend surf, hiking, kayaking packages involving overnight accommodation too (and maybe transport).

I plan on using local operators for the activities and source hotels etc.

Just a couple of questions to anyone who does this or may have industry experience.

- The AITO bonding is too expensive for start ups, however do you need some sort of license to run tours and put together packages? I am aware of the 1992 regulations for package tours and can comply with them. I guess I am just worried about liability etc

- In terms of transport, do you need a special license to drive fee paying people in a mini bus with less than 8 seats?

Finally I have a lot of experience in the online world and have a nice amount of capital to throw at this. I would be interested in partners for this enterprise.

Let me know if you are interested.

Hi

I own or am a director of several such businesses in the sector. If you intend to be the tour operator in the middle you will have to ensure that your business plan enables you to grow to serious numbers of clients as there is just not the margin in the business.

I would suggest you would need a 6 figure sum to do it properly.
Yes you do need a PSV license to drive people as they are paying clients.

I am not saying it cannot be done as it can and is a great life but the space is very, very crowded and margins are tight so you need to have a niche and fully dominate that niche.

We do it by a tight focus on what our core skills are and we also deliver the activity part . The activity part is more than often why the clients sign up so we keep total control of that and it is also where you have most communication with the clients which is a good thing

Give me a call of you want to discuss, I have grey hair so have traveled the road in this game

If you have capital consider buying an existing operator rather than starting from go. A existing customer base is worth its weight in gold

Peter

 

[adventurelife]

Yes I mean them.

Through my existing online business I already have quite a large presence in this area, thats partly why I am thinking of doing it, actually getting clients would be the easy bit for me, it's all the regulations and red tape that I am worrying about!

Thanks for the links though.

Sorry forgot to mention my USP..

Well it would be geared at singles and solos. I know of a couple of companies running similar and they are always booked out so I am sure there is a market there. I can also be competitive on price too.

I also now the companies who run single events. I would run a mile if i was you. The work required and the cost of that work is exactly the same for a single booking or a group booking. Group bookings are what you want and design the company and make it obvious that you also take singles that way you get the best of both worlds

There are a host of regulations and companies are going bust in this sector monthly at present. Two of our suppliers so far this year have gone and I expect more.

 

[workingNOMADdotcom]

Thanks for the reply AdvenutureLife and the excellent advice.

When you suggest 6 figures are you talking about start up funds of 6 figures?

I am a web designer and marketer by trade and I am used to farming out work to India etc so I am pretty confident getting the online side right. I have looked at quite a few other operator websites and they are pretty dire in some cases with no SEO or marketing, yet they have been running for years so they must be doing something right!

I guess having a great niche product is what it's about.

For me it would be a lifestyle business and I would be happy to work to tight margins. I have other income from the online world but really want a more people facing business.

In terms of the guiding walking that is something I would deliver myself, as I have experience and qualifications in this.

I suppose it's just a case of getting out there and seeing if I can get bookings and interest! It just seems so daunting for one person.

Interesting what you say about buying an existing operation. I wonder where such businesses are found for sale or whether its a case of approaching them?

 

[workingNOMADdotcom]

They would not be exclusively for singles, but they would be welcome of course.

As for the host of regulations, where are they? All I have been advised to look at is The Package Travel, Package Holidays and Package Tours Regulations 1992, which to be honest look fine.

As for running a mile, well the financial risk for me is minimal and I like a challenge!
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[JEREMY HAWKE]

If you get a good business plan together and have enough capital available I think you will OK

Im really kicking myself these days .I have lived in Devon all my life love the outdoors ,the beach and everything else that goes with living here .

I wish I had invested in the tourist industry years ago !

 

[adventurelife]

Thanks for the reply AdvenutureLife and the excellent advice.

When you suggest 6 figures are you talking about start up funds of 6 figures? Yes £100k plus , however as you said later it is going to be a lifestyle business this can be down graded a lot

I am a web designer and marketer by trade and I am used to farming out work to India etc so I am pretty confident getting the online side right. I have looked at quite a few other operator websites and they are pretty dire in some cases with no SEO or marketing, yet they have been running for years so they must be doing something right! I agree a lot of companies do not have the in house seo ability or the resources to buy it because of the margins! If you can deliver in this you will drive business without a doubt but that is just the first part.

I guess having a great niche product is what it's about. Totally!

For me it would be a lifestyle business and I would be happy to work to tight margins. I have other income from the online world but really want a more people facing business. This is a 100% people business. If the clients to do have a good time and recommend you it is a very hard job

In terms of the guiding walking that is something I would deliver myself, as I have experience and qualifications in this. When you are delivering the experience who is running and growing the company? 9 out of 10 owner operators in this sector try and deliver personally the experience and hence the business never gets past a 1-5 person business. Okay if you want the lifestyle but to much like a job for me.

I suppose it's just a case of getting out there and seeing if I can get bookings and interest! It just seems so daunting for one person. If you are a good online marketer you will get bookings , lots of them! I would judge it as a impossible job for one person with everything that is involved. I hire 2 people on day one when I started.

Interesting what you say about buying an existing operation. I wonder where such businesses are found for sale or whether its a case of approaching them?

Both type in various search phrases to google and also approach owners direct. There was a reasonable sized surf school for sale in Cornwall/Deven a few months back not sure if it sold. We have grown by strong organic growth and also by doing new start ups and buying businesses. I swear I will never start another startup but I said that the last time

I know of a surfing business for sale that may be suited to your online talents. I was going to take a punt myself but another opportunity in our core service came along PM for details

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Was that the surf school in Croyde Bay that was on the rocks !!!!

They had to sell as it was sink or swim

I really need to do something more productive with my time

 

[adventurelife]

They would not be exclusively for singles, but they would be welcome of course.

As for the host of regulations, where are they? All I have been advised to look at is The Package Travel, Package Holidays and Package Tours Regulations 1992, which to be honest look fine.

As for running a mile, well the financial risk for me is minimal and I like a challenge!

A long as you adhere the regulations above you will be fine Also PSV regulations if you are transporting people.

Then you have AALA regulations if you decide to take kids. Insurance is available from several outlets but can be expensive depending on what you offer.

You will also need to do full risk assessments and a H&S policy . As I mentioned it is a hard business for one person as you have a huge amount to do.

The credit card merchant providers also do not like tour companies that much so can be a hassle getting a credit card machine until you have a track record.

Other options as well as buying an exiting operator is to partner with an operator and you do the marketing and they are responsible for the delivery. This would make you life a lot easier and as long as you pick the right operator you can focus on growth all the time.

 

[papverpoppies]

I am not in the Industry - but I live in Cumbria with the Lakes as my backdrop!

There seems to be no shortage of this type of activity here - with new ones entering the scene every year.

I cannot say how many fail - as compared to those that make it.

All I can say - is that people do seem to want to experience the more 'extreme' aspects of out door life/activities when they come to the lakes, so I would not imagine your area to be any different.

My grounding many years ago in the tourist trade came via an organisation called the Holiday Fellowship (not unlike the CHA).

Families, couples, singles, loved the concept of guided walking tours (in those days it was more tame)! They felt safe in the hands of experienced guides who knew the fells.

That organisation is still going strong - and has since set up overseas desinations with exactly the same ethos!

I then got to know the peple who came to the Lakes to rock climb, canoe, and orienteer - the latter which is a great family sport (for ALL ages).

You only have to look at the amount of properties that belong to various organisations as holiday accommodationto realise that this is still big business and growing (in this area anyway).

Many of the smaller towns in the South Lakes - sell very little else other than out door clothing - non of these could make a living if the business/trade did not exist.

If you can find your pitch - I cannot see why it should not be a viable concern.

Good Luck

Poppy

 

[workingNOMADdotcom]

Where does it say you have to do risk assessments etc? I know businesses who cover this with disclaimers and appropriate insurance.

After all I am simply booking accommodation and leading walks.

While I understand it might not be easy for one person I don't think there is much there to overcome.

It will be strictly 18 and above and people will have to sign disclaimers to say they are doing these activities at their won risk.

There are lots of businesses I know on meetup.com that do the above and none of them have had to get involved in all this risk assessment etc...

 

[adventurelife]

Where does it say you have to do risk assessments etc? I know businesses who cover this with disclaimers and appropriate insurance.

After all I am simply booking accommodation and leading walks.

While I understand it might not be easy for one person I don't think there is much there to overcome.

It will be strictly 18 and above and people will have to sign disclaimers to say they are doing these activities at their won risk.

There are lots of businesses I know on meetup.com that do the above and none of them have had to get involved in all this risk assessment etc...

If you are leading walks you will need risk assessments. Your insurance company will ask for them and if they do not they will have a box for you to tick to say you have them. I prefer to work with insurance companies who understand what they are insuring!

On average we get asked about once per week for copies of our risk assessments from clients and potential clients.

A disclosure ( not a disclaimer!) is not a legal document although I strongly advise you do use them. It is not what many people think it is but it is still useful in the event of an accident. They are not doing them at their own risk! Read the AALA website and although it is meant for organisations who take kids all the information is totally relevant to those taking adults as well.

It there are businesses doing this who take money from clients and they have not done risk assessments they will not have done a H&S policy properly so they will be breaking the law.

In this business you are taking responsibility for peoples safety and well being. That comes with a lot of responsibility.

Of course there are hundred of small operators who ignore many of the things they should have done and be doing but as a cleint would you want to pay money to a organisation that has cut corners

You might also think that you are just taking clients on a walk which on the face of it looks soft adventure compared with the services we deliver. I advise you to do some digging and have a look at the accident statistics involved in the industry you may be surprised.

I am by no means trying to put you off. The more businesses in this sector the better as far as I am concerned as it encourages people to get out and try adventure services.

However, if you are delivering the services it is a serious business. I would not book a walking group unless the walking leader had the minimum qualification of ML summer and extensive experience.

Like I mentioned before if your core skills are online marketing maybe a partnership with a company would be the way forward as they will have all the operations stuff in place and I suspect their marketing might not be all that good as you have pointed out!

 

[yorkshirejames]

- In terms of transport, do you need a special license to drive fee paying people in a mini bus with less than 8 seats?

Yes you do need a PSV license to drive people as they are paying clients.

If we are referring to a minibus UNDER eight seats then you don't need a PCV licence - you need a taxi licence. Far better to outsource this.

If you are meaning a minibus 9 seats and above then note that your driver needs a PCV licence and your business needs an Operators licence.

Semantics - PCV drivers licence (public carrying vehicle), and PSV MOT (public service vehicle). Helps minimize confusion.

 

[workingNOMADdotcom]

Thanks again..

I would not book a walking group unless the walking leader had the minimum qualification of ML summer and extensive experience.

Yea I have that in place and would only employ people that could offer that.

I certainly wouldn't cut corners myself but I am sure you are right and that there are many small operators breaking the rules.

I have been planning this for quite a while and it is slowly coming together in my head!

Sometimes if life you just have to be brave and take that first step!

 

[papverpoppies]

Where does it say you have to do risk assessments etc? I know businesses who cover this with disclaimers and appropriate insurance.

After all I am simply booking accommodation and leading walks.

While I understand it might not be easy for one person I don't think there is much there to overcome.

It will be strictly 18 and above and people will have to sign disclaimers to say they are doing these activities at their won risk.

There are lots of businesses I know on meetup.com that do the above and none of them have had to get involved in all this risk assessment etc...

When I was working in the Lakes..a young boy aged about 16 slipped off one of the fells Coniston Old Man - and fell to his death.

Can you imagine how the guide felt as the boys parents had not gone on that walk, they had stayed down in the valley.

The company, the guide, ALL had the correct insurance as well as being qualified to lead parties of walkers up onto the fells - risk assessment was not a major facture in those days.

Non of the above helped him come to terms with the tragic accident, and there would have been those who did blame him. The only saving grace was that he was 'qualified; and he did have the correct insurance, as did the orgainsation he was working for'!

All of the guides used to think nothing could ever happen to them - I am sure that this poor man thought the same - until that fatal day.


Even down to parties of walkers taking the wrong directions up on the tops in the mist - they ALL raise questions when they return back to base, as to the quides abiltity - and the organisation that employs them.

You have got to cover all possibilities, and only continual risk assessment will give you that.

My ex was a fire officer, that service runs on risk assessment, they would be blown out of the water and taken to the cleaners if this was not so. It is for safety of the firemen as well as the public.

When firemen (and they do) try to take the service to Court, if they have had an accident - it is this repeated training that saves the service thousands of pounds, as they can prove that they were not the negligent party.

You are not in the real World if you think you can run any business,especially such as you are conteplating without it.

Everything is fine - until that days it all goes horribly wrong,

Poppy

 

[adventurelife]

Thanks again..



Yea I have that in place and would only employ people that could offer that.

I certainly wouldn't cut corners myself but I am sure you are right and that there are many small operators breaking the rules.

I have been planning this for quite a while and it is slowly coming together in my head!

Sometimes if life you just have to be brave and take that first step!

If you use the guidelines on the AALA website you will not go far wrong. They are a department of the H&S executive and although set up to protect kids I have more than a feeling that the guidelines the use are going to be industry wide sooner rather than later so best just to just them.

I have attended a fair few boards of enquiry over the years in different industries and they have without exception wanted to see the risk assessments.

Also in these days of some individuals thinking they can make a claim and get easy money for anything with no win no fee etc you need to take all steps to protect you and the future business.

 

[papverpoppies]

Don't forget that risk assessment has to also be carried out, on any equipment you use.

Ask anyone who gives their time to mountain rescue services, lieboat etc they put more time testing, the volunteers and the equipement, than the actual rescues they do, in some cases.

You have got to put that equipement through the worse scenerio it might be involved in - and to remember that people do not always do or act in a way that can be anticipated in a crisis situation!

Good Luck

Poppy

 

[workingNOMADdotcom]

I am only thinking of leading adults in lowland hills, not taking them to the Himalayas!

I know things can go wrong but I am going to do everything to minimise any risk such as being qualified to deal with emergencies, ensuring clients have insurance etc

Health and safety in this country is just way over the top!

 

[papverpoppies]

I am only thinking of leading adults in lowland hills, not taking them to the Himalayas!

I know things can go wrong but I am going to do everything to minimise any risk such as being qualified to deal with emergencies, ensuring clients have insurance etc

Health and safety in this country is just way over the top!

This is what the ramblers association suggest you do (for leading parties of walkers)!

http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=...eeded+for+leading+walking+parties&hl=en&gl=uk

Have you ever led a party before - or been in a group of people who you are responsible for?

I have to say that your attitude comes across as very 'it will never happen to me'! No, it might not - it could well happen to one of the people you are responsible for though'!

H&S Can be over the top in some instances, but not in the case of what you are thinking of taking on.

It should not be about your views on H&S - but the views and welfare of the people you are planning on taking out.

It is not a gentle stoll out on the fells/lowlands on your own.

My friends Mother fell down an old mine shaft whilst walking a part of the North York Moors - my Mother fell down a hole the size of a underground tunnel, both had to be rescued. Reason for both accidents, they roamed off the designated paths. Not content with that some months later my Mother slipped from top to bottom on a 'small' grassy (not even hill) slope.

The NY Cave rescue had to be called out for my friends Mother, and on both occasions my Mother had to be lifted out/up on a rope via the strong men of the party - and then taken to hospital. So silly accidents do happen.

Still, you seem to know best.

Poppy

 

[adventurelife]

I am only thinking of leading adults in lowland hills, not taking them to the Himalayas!

I know things can go wrong but I am going to do everything to minimise any risk such as being qualified to deal with emergencies, ensuring clients have insurance etc

Health and safety in this country is just way over the top!

Examples of things that have happened when I have been leading groups on walks ( lowland ) !

Broken ankles and legs
Heart attack
Stroke

I could go on. When you start taking the Great British Public out and about in the countryside in any way shape or form you will have incidents! It is the low level stuff that you are talking about that has most incidents!

Your or my opnion on health and safety does not matter as it is there and in law so you have no choice if you want to run a responsible company.

If you take a reasonable amount of people each year you will have incidents. It is a mark of a good operator on how those incidents are dealt with and all procedures and checks have been put in place prior to the incident , kept updated and role played.

The point made on equipment is 100% relevant. On a incident happening the first thing that happens is all equipment involved is taken away and tested by the H&S if it fails you are liable end of story. It is the first thing they go for because it is often something that is overlooked by many small operators.

I am not posting this for my own benefit. I have been involved in calculated risk taking of my own life since 16 and have been responsible for others since I was 18 across several high risk environments.

If you do this right you could have a great company and a great lifestyle do it wrong and you will have a nightmare.

Like all things in life there are no short cuts!

 

[workingNOMADdotcom]

I sense some people are only interested in on this forum in quashing the ideas of others.

Do people dare to step outside their own front doors now in case something happens?

No I don't think I know better but you cannot go through life with such negative attitudes and being constantly worried about what might happen.

Some people should seriously relax a little.

 

[yorkshirejames]

I sense some people are only interested in on this forum in quashing the ideas of others.

Do people dare to step outside their own front doors now in case something happens?

No I don't think I know better but you cannot go through life with such negative attitudes and being constantly worried about what might happen.

Some people should seriously relax a little.

You asked a question, and people have given you what (in many cases) is informed professional opinion of people who have got the T-shirt.

However - if you want to work with other tour operators (example offer a rambling tour to punters coming to the west country on Saga holidays) then they will require sight of a lot of paperwork from you - and you can't just say to them "its rubbish we'll be fine".

 

[vvaannmmaann]

I sense some people are only interested in on this forum in quashing the ideas of others.

Do people dare to step outside their own front doors now in case something happens?

No I don't think I know better but you cannot go through life with such negative attitudes and being constantly worried about what might happen.

Some people should seriously relax a little.

Welcome to the wonderful world of litigation.Councils get sued because people trip over paving slabs.Whilst your customers all look fine and say the right things to your face,as soon as something goes wrong,they will be calling their lawyers asap.
As has been said,people are trying to help you.If it seems that your idea is being quashed,that is because you are so close to the idea,that you may not want to see the potential pitfalls.
Good luck with it.

 

[workingNOMADdotcom]

I was a little drunk when I wrote that last night!

I still think a bit more encouragement would not go a miss. Maybe it's the British way to always look at what might go wrong and focus more on that.

Having lived overseas for long periods I certainly get a sense that we in this country would rather knock something than big it up or be encouraging, this is the opposite to what I have found in places like Australia where the attitude is the opposite!

I partly blame our media for this.

I suppose thats another discussion and I do appreciate all comments, good and bad.

 

[vvaannmmaann]

I'm not trying to put you down.I'm all for your idea,and I know several people that would want to go out with you.All I'm saying is keep doing your research,keep asking questions.Make sure you are operating legally and safely,have any and all the insurances you need.Then when you are totally happy,go for it.

 

[workingNOMADdotcom]

Thanks vannnnmannnn. It's certainly been a worthwhile exercise posting on this forum.

 

[adventurelife]

I was a little drunk when I wrote that last night!

I still think a bit more encouragement would not go a miss. Maybe it's the British way to always look at what might go wrong and focus more on that.

Having lived overseas for long periods I certainly get a sense that we in this country would rather knock something than big it up or be encouraging, this is the opposite to what I have found in places like Australia where the attitude is the opposite!

I partly blame our media for this.

I suppose thats another discussion and I do appreciate all comments, good and bad.

In no way am I trying to put you down or tell you it will not work. It will work if and only if you deal with it in a professional manner. If you do you will have a great life.

I am telling you for a fact that if you get involved in this industry you will have incidents, every single operator does. You really do not have a choice and that is what you have to understand. If you want to do it, you have to do it right or you will be walking a thin line and it will come back and bite you legally.

Personally I see no difference from any country in the World with the possible exception of the USA the UK has got the most get up and go of any. I also have been to over 50 and lived in several for years at a time so I have a fair idea and can count over 10 different nationalities amongst our team so I get a fair bit of feedback on different cultures.

The UK does have extensive red tape I agree but you just have to deal with it.

Get on with it , do it, build a great company and have a great life. However, there are no short cuts.

Wish you well

 

[KidsBeeHappy]

I I still think a bit more encouragement would not go a miss. Maybe it's the British way to always look at what might go wrong and focus more on that.

You've come asking for advice, and one of the posters has extensive experience in this area, and has provided you with his expert advice.

If you want a load of back slapping etc, then that's fine, but jollyjolly encouragement, coupled with the attitude of just ignoring all the H&S stuff you don't like, is a recipe for disaster.

What the "bad comments" are infact are posts by people with extensive experience, that they are sharing for free, for no-body's benefit other than yours, to try and forewarn you of some of the big risk areas in this field.

 

[M_kirk]

Friend of mine went away with these guys they have a website if you google the company name, give you loads of ideas... probably.

Company name "Play away" or Playaway"

 

[yorkshirejames]

Friend of mine went away with these guys they have a website if you google the company name, give you loads of ideas... probably.

Company name "Play away" or Playaway"

Is that the sort of "playing away" that I'm thinking of?