starting a carpentry sub contracting firm

[djcarpentry]

Hi all. I've been working on site for a carpentry sub contractor and have decided I want to go out on my own. Start my own firm and do work for the big house builders like bovis, Bellway ect. Does anyone have any advice on how to get on there tender list and just general advice? Thanks!

 

[Complete Property]

good luck getting on a tender list without being ltd with a 50k turnover for 2 plus years and audited accounts, its very hard to get to that point,

your best bet staring out is to try to contact larger companies who have current tenders in place and offer to subcontract, then once you hav established yourself and have accounts etc u can start tendering for yourself

Cheers

 

[mckellar]

We subcontract to persimmon, barratt homes, charles church homes for builders cleans (i know its different service but same sector)

all i do is phone up the regional office (for me, west of scotland) and it goes like this: (HB - housebuilder)

HB: "good morning persimmon homes.."
Me: "Hi there i'm wondering if you could put me through to one of your surveyors please, its with regards to a tender"
HB (usually): any particular surveyor?
Me: "No, any surveyor will be able to answer my question, thanks"
HB: "ok no probem/.."

Surveyor: Hello, (insert name)
Me: Hi, im sorry to bother you, we were driving past a couple of your new sites today whilst on our way to another job and was wondering if you have place on your tender list for another cleaning contractor to potentially give you a price for the works?"

they will then either greet you with a simple yes or a disgruntled "not today thanks"

i've found the best day to do any cold calling is a thursday, close enough to the weekend without people leaving work early on a friday or past caring for the last few hours.

I now run 13 sites with persimmon and it all stemmed from that above call. Once you get sent out the new subcontractor forms etc, get it filled out asap and just keep chasing any work.

once you have gained a site, you will soon be recognised and you can then phone up with more confidence and ask the surveyor if he or any of his other co-surveyors have any new sites that you can price up

 

[avalanche]

before you consider working for the big house builders you need to work for the smaller ones and gain some experience, you have to have all your h&s files in place, certified with a trade association like chas,you need a big pile of cash to pay your carpenters and you need good tested systems in place

 

[splinters-int]

Just wondered how you where getting on with this? did the above work?

 

[djcarpentry]

Sorry for not getting back to any of yous completely forgot about this post. I haven't yet started as I'm still a sole trader and you really need to be limited don't you? Can anyone give me advise as want I need in place before I start anything so I can get prepared? I understand it will be hard at 1st but I'm prepared to take the risk!

 

[S Isaac]

I doubt you'd need to be limited (although there are benefits to it, so it might be worth looking into further). As already stated, your biggest issue is going to be all your H&S in place, chas, insurance etc etc.

 

[djcarpentry]

I'm going to speak to my accountant about going limted. Who would I go to to get my h&s files written up? Any advice is useful!

 

[avalanche]

my advise would be to learn your trade first then start sub contracting for smaller builders who will give you a bit of slack for your pricing and organisational mistakes that you will make

if you go straight in at the deep end with the big boys they will have your pants down.
take it slow learn as much as you can and build up your cashflow

 

[djcarpentry]

That's what I would like to do. Start small and end up big really. Which is obviously quite a long way off as I'm only 19 years old! Alot of carpentry firms won't trust you let alone a building company. But I'm as good as and quick as other older chippy. Thanks for your advice though!

 

[avalanche]

No probs, I'm a carpentry contractor myself so know some of the pitfalls,
If your only 19 you have a lot to learn but thats all part of the fun
I started on the sites in the 80's then set up a workshop when the 90's recession hit. I was in my early 20's and it was tough to get anyone to take me serious,
Looking back now its easy to understand why.
I did that until the houses started booming again - early 2000's then went back to the sites
When your young everything seems straight forward but as you get older and learn more, the more difficult it gets.
Its hard to know what you don't know but if your determined and passionate about it you will get there with a lot of strange twists and turns along the way.
At your age you would probably be better working along side someone who can mentor you a bit to speed up the learning process,

 

[Karllacey]

the only poster I agree with in part is McKeller, because I have done this many many times for other tradesman and I always get a excellent degree of success. The big property developers are interested in one thing mainly and that is price; whilst I agree the smaller builders is a good avenue to start; although it does have its risks...but there again GB group have gone down, so roll the dice with whoever..

 

[avalanche]

the only poster I agree with in part is McKeller, because I have done this many many times for other tradesman and I always get a excellent degree of success. The big property developers are interested in one thing mainly and that is price; whilst I agree the smaller builders is a good avenue to start; although it does have its risks...but there again GB group have gone down, so roll the dice with whoever..

So you think a 19 year old lad should approach the likes of Barratt Homes and tender for sites in the 200 unit range with no experience, cash-flow or labour?
Until he has gained the experience with the small builders and made a few mistakes how can he know his costs.
Much better to make a price mistake and swallow it on 1 house than 200 and to be honest no larger builder would even consider him without the experience.

 

[Karllacey]

Yes, he should do exactly that...not necessarily 200 units; something a little more palatable. If he has his badges and is transparent with them, why not? cash-flow, well we do not know his current situation, and the house builders are flexible on payment terms sometimes, could be weekly payments for instance (again this is from experience) but we should not try and quell this type of enthusiasm, it is kind of a sink of swim scenario.

As for the labour side of things, pick up the phone have a few subbies on stand by, agree the rates, sign necessary NDAs and give them a try.

Going back to the house builders, building several businesses from scratch, I have tried to go into the SME customer base and it is not easy working from a blank page, but working on what I call the Walking Dead philosophy, is that you "Go for head and the body will fall".

What this basically means, the big companies (corporates or otherwise) are the head and the body is the SME market. You get even a small job you can invoice these corporates for and you have a client. That client (irrespective of the size of the job) = credibility. With that credibility, you access the SME market with a far greater degree of confidence.

On a separate note, I think he should try Symphony Kitchens - they are always looking for carpenters/joiners

 

[avalanche]

Karl with respect that is the worst advice I have heard, Your right its sink or swim but chances are he is going to sink.
If you are learning to swim start in the shallow end, not out in the middle of the atlantic.
Yes you may be able to get weekly terms but its doubtful and if you did its because your price is so low they want to use you
The lad is 19, he has not been a joiner long enough to be time served yet so how can he possibly know how to price a job properly? He is not likely to have enough money in the bank to pay subbies for a couple of months while he waits to get paid
He has got to start small so the mistakes he will make are small and as he gets more experience take on bigger jobs.

As for the labour side of things, if you can get subbies to be on stand by then they are not worth using. I constantly struggle to get subbies and it is only going to get harder as times get busier
You said yourself symphony are always looking for subbies and there is a reason why.

 

[S Isaac]

On a separate note, I think he should try Symphony Kitchens - they are always looking for carpenters/joiners

To be honest, that's usually a bad sign!

 

[djcarpentry]

I'm not planning on having my own subcontracting firm tomorrow I know I have to grow to that in many years to come that's just where I would like to end up. I do currently work for a subbie firm atm but i am always pricing and winning jobs in my own time and so far only under priced one job by half a days work. All other have come in at a profit. My plan is for me and the other lad I work with is to save as much money as we can over the years. So we can go to the house builder's to price with out the worry of cash flow problems. Hence why i work 7 days a week to get to my goal in life! I know the age is a big problem as everyone seems to think that all young chippys are useless. Yet me and my pal earn as much money as everyone else on the firm on price with no comebacks.

 

[avalanche]

Well done mate - Your doing it the right way, keep working hard and growing slowly and you will get there.

 

[Ian J]

My plan is for me and the other lad I work with is to save as much money as we can over the years. So we can go to the house builder's to price with out the worry of cash flow problems.

Invoice finance will be a possibility to help you out with your cash flow in the future and there are schemes especially tailored to subbies in the construction industry. Have a look at http://factoringconstruction.co.uk/ and give me a ring in a couple of years when you're ready to make the step up

 

[Oliver Wild]

Hi! How did it work out?

 

[RBS]

DJ,

If you are in London - you are lucky. Its so crazy in London at the moment, there is a big shortage of subcontractors. If you see a new site, stop by, ask to see a QS. If he is not there, ask his details from PM. They will be happy to talk to you - bigger the competition, better for them.

Go for it. But considering your age/lack of business experience - you might want to employ some sort of business manager who knows the game - tendering, insurancies, processes, contracts etc. And don`t forget you might need deep pockets - you will not get paid every Friday. You will have to buy all materials from your own money before you get paid.

P.S. I work in property developement.

 

[azaudur]

Hi everyone,

I am also looking to contract for big housing developers and would value some advice. I have been working as a carpenter for 8 years now and have pretty good idea of what I'm doing. Atm I am running carpentry for a site where we are building 6000 houses, working as a sub-contractor for a big carpentry contractor. I already have an ltd that has been running for a year and a team of 4 carpenters and have access to more if needed.

However, I am tired of making the profit for someone else and want to work directly with housing developers. However, I am unsure where to start. The only prices I know, are the ones I earn and those are given to me by the contractors I work for, so how would I know what prices to offer to developers? Is there a general rule of thumb of how much of the total price charged by contractors goes to sub-contractors like me? How much do they make on the work I do? I've heard that contractors charge double of what they pay their carpenters on price, meaning 50% goes to them and the other 50% to the carpenter. Is that true?

Thanks for any advice.

 

[RBS]

All you need to do it pick up a phone or find QS on site. He will invite you or give access to their tendering system. Once they release tender package, you will get invite to put in your offer. Whoever offers best/cheapest deal, gets it.

Obviously there are many "brown" envelope things going on for big jobs, but you still have a chance!

Forget about charging double, in your wildest dreams. Mark ups are thin, 10-20% I would say. Its volume what make you profit.