Staff reluctant to drive to internal meeting 1.5 miles away because of no business insurance on car!
- Thread starter nicebloke
- Start date
Likewise. Does the same apply if I drive my daughters car to the station to catch a train into London for business?
I'm suffering from an attack of Gout right now. 24 hours ago, a foot and a half was a struggle
From another angle. If I decide to drive to my normal place of work in my non business use car, then use it to take a couple of parcels to Parcelforce, or to drop off something to a customer on my way home, am I uninsured?
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This has been a very interesting thread indeed. Mainly because how confused everyone seems to be getting.
Worries me the OP thinks if he lets them leave early for a work related meeting it's then classed as pleasure/social?! Seriously?!
Remove the business meeting part entirely and then their journey might actually be within a legal one.
Worries me the OP thinks if he lets them leave early for a work related meeting it's then classed as pleasure/social?! Seriously?!
Remove the business meeting part entirely and then their journey might actually be within a legal one.
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I really don't believe this. Your car is insured for social, domestic and pleasure. If you are driving your car for any othe reason you are not insured. Taking work parcels to the post office is business. Not covered? Not insured. Many policies include commuting to a fixed workplace or even business travel that is not hire and reward. CHECK your policies.
Asking employees to travel on business includes you checking that their insurance covers them for the journey and, if it does not, ensuring that they can travel legally to the business meet.
I cannot believe how many apparently experienced business owners do not know this.
@Frank the Insurance guy please get involved.
Asking employees to travel on business includes you checking that their insurance covers them for the journey and, if it does not, ensuring that they can travel legally to the business meet.
I cannot believe how many apparently experienced business owners do not know this.
@Frank the Insurance guy please get involved.
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So If I post a catalogue to a customer I need to use my long wheelbase, hi top Mercedes Sprinter van to transport the envelope?
If I go to the cashpoint to withdraw money from my business account, collect a business related packet of rubber bands from an Amazon collection point, I can't use the wife's car?
PS: By the same token, If I take the mother in laws old carpet to the dump in my van does this not sit well with the 'transport of own goods' small print on my business use policy?
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If your wife worked at the OP’s place, maybe one of her work colleagues could - you know - push the chair for her? Crazy thought I know!
It’s about looking for positive ways to get things done, rather than always looking for excuses why not.
I sometimes wonder how on earth people managed during the war!
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In the old days, this was simple. Now, people have problems with anything business, I blame just eat and food deliveries! However, an employer can’t try to find get around because that’s simply wrong, and puts the staff at risk plus possibly the firm too. If they live all over the place taxis are expensive, so why not hire a minI bus and have them come into the office, then drive them. They’ll not be able to have a drink of course.
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- Original Poster
- #51
I’d like to move the debate along to celebratory gatherings like a xmas meal at a restaurant or a retirement do. All the staff went to a local pub quite recently for the latter and drove their own vehicles. We did actually talk about work a bit at the gathering. Should I in fact advised them that they might not have been insured for the journey??
I guess it might come down to the ‘primary purpose’ of the meeting. I still feel it’s a grey area.
I guess it might come down to the ‘primary purpose’ of the meeting. I still feel it’s a grey area.
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I think people are really just trying to split hairs now, a party is a party or social gathering, if its a work meeting with some grub on the side its a works meeting.
Friend of mine was driving through London too a meeting, police had their check point set up pulling over all the drivers, no problem says friend (in his 4x4) Friendly policeman asks him where are you going, oh just up the road to the shopping centre for a meeting. Wait they're sir. To cut a long story short was asked to get out vehicle, your insurance does not cover you for work related driving, 4x4 going to get towed, friend very angry as his whole fleet of vans and cars are covered for business.
So angry cuffs are slapped on him. He had called the wife who happened to be in office, now also very angry as he was now late for a project meeting, she calls insurance company who yes ........ oh sorry we made a mistake of course the vehicle is insured for business. Phone call to police, released from handcuffs and finally on his way.
And a few years back my eldest worked for a company who helped police tow cars away and was not unheard of when they did these operations to remove over 500 cars off the road in one session. There's a big pen where they put them all just by Blackwell Tunnel.
You pays your money and take your chances. And let's not forget staff hate reviews at the best of times and telling them they have to travel a mile and a half to one is just a great excuse to say "no thanks ill give it a miss" and you have given them a pretty good excuse to say no.
Friend of mine was driving through London too a meeting, police had their check point set up pulling over all the drivers, no problem says friend (in his 4x4) Friendly policeman asks him where are you going, oh just up the road to the shopping centre for a meeting. Wait they're sir. To cut a long story short was asked to get out vehicle, your insurance does not cover you for work related driving, 4x4 going to get towed, friend very angry as his whole fleet of vans and cars are covered for business.
So angry cuffs are slapped on him. He had called the wife who happened to be in office, now also very angry as he was now late for a project meeting, she calls insurance company who yes ........ oh sorry we made a mistake of course the vehicle is insured for business. Phone call to police, released from handcuffs and finally on his way.
And a few years back my eldest worked for a company who helped police tow cars away and was not unheard of when they did these operations to remove over 500 cars off the road in one session. There's a big pen where they put them all just by Blackwell Tunnel.
You pays your money and take your chances. And let's not forget staff hate reviews at the best of times and telling them they have to travel a mile and a half to one is just a great excuse to say "no thanks ill give it a miss" and you have given them a pretty good excuse to say no.
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Although I understand this, with the way the world of work has changed now I cannot help but feel this is going to get muddy.
My staff contracts allow my staff to work from wherever they like wherever their mood takes them. I've always allowed my staff to work from the beach in Barbados, Starbucks, one spent some time in South Africa for a while and worked from various locations there, home or the office, travel to another country early for cheap flights but work the first few days before they officially start their holiday, from the park. Literally where they like.
Now I'm starting to question, because I allow this level of flexibility do I need to ensure ones who have no actual need to make business journeys actually do need to have insurance for business journeys. I will check this out with our insurer (who is @Frank the Insurance guy ) but it's an interesting consideration that's quite shocking.
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What about if you were going to the post office for a sausage roll, 20 bensons, a can of happy shopper energy drink, and just happened to have a business letter to post at he same time?
Would you document the different items on a spreadsheet, work it all out, and then ask for the letter back because you weren’t insured to post it??
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The purpose of the journet was not in the course of business - the business transaction was a minor incidental. If you were stopped by the police and asked the purpose of your journey you would be going to the shops.
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This is an argument I had with the IT Director of the now defunct Toy-R-Us years ago.
They were looking for junior store systems support staff (to support the EPOS systems and the AS400's) and wanted to pay something silly low that precluded anyone with experience Their ideal applicant had left school at 16 done a HND in IT at a particular college locally and worked in retail at weekends (so they understood what the users were doing). They also wanted them to have own transport.
I put fwd a guy who met all the specs and had a moped - they said "sorry he cant do the job", when asked why I was told it was as sometimes they needed to take a piece of replacement kit to a store in a hurry so it needed to be a car not a bike. I said "but none of the 17 & 18 year olds out there will have insurance for that kind of trip, it is not standard for young people" and was replied with
"That's not my problem - if they want the job they'll find a way"
They were looking for junior store systems support staff (to support the EPOS systems and the AS400's) and wanted to pay something silly low that precluded anyone with experience Their ideal applicant had left school at 16 done a HND in IT at a particular college locally and worked in retail at weekends (so they understood what the users were doing). They also wanted them to have own transport.
I put fwd a guy who met all the specs and had a moped - they said "sorry he cant do the job", when asked why I was told it was as sometimes they needed to take a piece of replacement kit to a store in a hurry so it needed to be a car not a bike. I said "but none of the 17 & 18 year olds out there will have insurance for that kind of trip, it is not standard for young people" and was replied with
"That's not my problem - if they want the job they'll find a way"
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The issue is most of us old people have it all as standard on our policies - we forget the youngsters are buying the cheapest policy they can get away with and a lot of what we consider standard is removed from those policies to reduce risk/cut premium costs.
I mean I find it amazing you now have to specify you want pillion cover on a motorcycle policy - can you imagine if a standard car policy didnt include carrying passengers !!!
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Wow! what a thread
Like all things - it depends on the contract you have entered into.
Its not possible to confirm one thing or another without looking at each individual policy.
"Commuting"
cover is usually from your main place of work only.
"Personal Business Use / Class1"
allows the policyholder (& sometimes the spouse - check the policy) to use the vehicle for business, excluding hire & reward etc
NOTE - this does not allow other drivers to use the car for their own business purposes - only the policyholder (and maybe the spouse)
There is usually little if any premium difference to include Personal Business Use.
Companies with their own company cars and their own fleet insurance policy - these can include (depending on insurer) "Occassional Business Use". This extends the company's fleet insurance policy to include the employees use of their own car for the occassional business trip, such as popping to the post office/bank etc.
To answer the OP - in my experience companies have asked their employees to get a quote to include business use on their policies and the company has paid this.
They will need to have at least the Personal Business Use / Class 1 cover.
Even if the policy includes Personal Business Use for your daughter, it is likely to only be Social, Domestic and Pleasure for you - therefore you would not be insured.
Notes - Where Personal Business Use is covered by the motor policy - it will only apply to the policyholder (and sometimes the spouse) - it will not cover other driver's use for business.
Yes, you are uninsured unless you have the business cover on your policy.
You can use any vehicle you like........as long as it is insured for business use. If the Mercedes van is the only one with business you, then yes you will have to use that one!
You can use your wife's car if it includes Personal Business Use for her and her spouse.
This isn't business use. This social, domestic and pleasure use of the van.
I would suggest any employees who may use their own vehicles for work have business cover.
I understand that as an employer, you have a duty of care to employees using their own vehicles. Many company have a "grey fleet" HR policy to check each year that employees cars have MOT and appropriate insurance - Can @Newchodge confirm if employers have to do this?
Like all things - it depends on the contract you have entered into.
Its not possible to confirm one thing or another without looking at each individual policy.
"Commuting"
cover is usually from your main place of work only.
"Personal Business Use / Class1"
allows the policyholder (& sometimes the spouse - check the policy) to use the vehicle for business, excluding hire & reward etc
NOTE - this does not allow other drivers to use the car for their own business purposes - only the policyholder (and maybe the spouse)
There is usually little if any premium difference to include Personal Business Use.
Companies with their own company cars and their own fleet insurance policy - these can include (depending on insurer) "Occassional Business Use". This extends the company's fleet insurance policy to include the employees use of their own car for the occassional business trip, such as popping to the post office/bank etc.
To answer the OP - in my experience companies have asked their employees to get a quote to include business use on their policies and the company has paid this.
They will need to have at least the Personal Business Use / Class 1 cover.
Even if the policy includes Personal Business Use for your daughter, it is likely to only be Social, Domestic and Pleasure for you - therefore you would not be insured.
Notes - Where Personal Business Use is covered by the motor policy - it will only apply to the policyholder (and sometimes the spouse) - it will not cover other driver's use for business.
Yes, you are uninsured unless you have the business cover on your policy.
You can use any vehicle you like........as long as it is insured for business use. If the Mercedes van is the only one with business you, then yes you will have to use that one!
You can use your wife's car if it includes Personal Business Use for her and her spouse.
This isn't business use. This social, domestic and pleasure use of the van.
I would suggest any employees who may use their own vehicles for work have business cover.
I understand that as an employer, you have a duty of care to employees using their own vehicles. Many company have a "grey fleet" HR policy to check each year that employees cars have MOT and appropriate insurance - Can @Newchodge confirm if employers have to do this?
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I don't think it is a legal requirement but it is very strongly recommended for every employer whose employees drive on business. It should also include a driving licence check.
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I think a certain precedent has been set from the top which has got people thinking of how they can redefine things to bamboozle the law
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Some sanity to the thread. I think the comment on older drivers cover being "different" to younger drivers is very true they in most cases get very basic cover at a huge cost I should add. I would also recommend (i am sure you all do) check your cover has not changed especially if you just renew with same company but I am sure we all read the small print they send us and note any changes?Wow! what a thread
Like all things - it depends on the contract you have entered into.
Its not possible to confirm one thing or another without looking at each individual policy.
"Commuting"
cover is usually from your main place of work only.
"Personal Business Use / Class1"
allows the policyholder (& sometimes the spouse - check the policy) to use the vehicle for business, excluding hire & reward etc
NOTE - this does not allow other drivers to use the car for their own business purposes - only the policyholder (and maybe the spouse)
There is usually little if any premium difference to include Personal Business Use.
Companies with their own company cars and their own fleet insurance policy - these can include (depending on insurer) "Occassional Business Use". This extends the company's fleet insurance policy to include the employees use of their own car for the occassional business trip, such as popping to the post office/bank etc.
To answer the OP - in my experience companies have asked their employees to get a quote to include business use on their policies and the company has paid this.
They will need to have at least the Personal Business Use / Class 1 cover.
Even if the policy includes Personal Business Use for your daughter, it is likely to only be Social, Domestic and Pleasure for you - therefore you would not be insured.
Notes - Where Personal Business Use is covered by the motor policy - it will only apply to the policyholder (and sometimes the spouse) - it will not cover other driver's use for business.
Yes, you are uninsured unless you have the business cover on your policy.
You can use any vehicle you like........as long as it is insured for business use. If the Mercedes van is the only one with business you, then yes you will have to use that one!
You can use your wife's car if it includes Personal Business Use for her and her spouse.
This isn't business use. This social, domestic and pleasure use of the van.
I would suggest any employees who may use their own vehicles for work have business cover.
I understand that as an employer, you have a duty of care to employees using their own vehicles. Many company have a "grey fleet" HR policy to check each year that employees cars have MOT and appropriate insurance - Can @Newchodge confirm if employers have to do this?
Mentioned it before but yes my last company checked our insurance, MOT etc if we were using our own motor vehicle rather than being supplied with a company car. We also had to declare any involvement in other companies and could not hold a directorship unless this had been sanctioned. Company had found to their horror several senior people sat on boards of companies which supplied services to our company and when very large contracts are at stake this was a big no no - these people were soon removed. latter sounds like a few MPs I could think of.
This next bit will probably throw the spanner in the works, but was there not a huge debate during covid and working at home scenario about, if an individual was on company time, at home and they had an accident who's insurance were they covered under ........... @Frank the Insurance guy may put us out of a misery and stop this debate in its tracks. But I am sure the question was raised.
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There are court cases on it
In fact an app we were creating (but gave up on) was to allow remote H&S checks of home offices with an audit trail
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No need to push an electric wheelchair! You were making out that people that can't walk a mile and a half are just lazy - I showed an example where someone can't walk a mile and a half. I'm sure there are plenty of people that can't walk that far but don't generally use a wheelchair as well.
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So, @nicebloke, you asked a few times about if you let staff leave early, put on food and then had the meetings would this be classed as social. I think your answer is a strong no.
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ok ok! Walk, cycle, get a scooter, roller skates, pogo stick, space hopper, electric wheelchair, whatever!
I’m just saying, it doesn’t have to be a big negative deal.
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As with any liability claim, the onus is on the injured party proving negligence against the other party (in this case their employer) - if they can show a failure of duty of care that lead to the injury they could have a case. Its all down to the specific details at the time.
Companies should start reviewing their Health & Safety policies to adapt these to home workers - as employers you may have a duty of care to ensure employees have a suitable environment and the "right tools" to work from home such as suitable desk, chair etc and they are not sat on the bed for 7 hours a day!
Unfortunately this is going to be the next big money spinner for ambulance chasing law firms - "did your employer give you a suitable chair.....If no, then get compensation for your bad back from ABC Injury Lawyers!"
There is a decent one out there: https://www.flex-home.app/
If the Health & Safety policy doesn't say they shouldn't then they may have a case - they would have to prove why the employer is negligent though!
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