Sole Trade -v- Limited Company

Adam93

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Jan 18, 2018
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I'm starting to wonder if I might be better off not having a LTD company and being self employed?

My main worry is the lower income on paper, for helping me with things like renting a house, or getting a mortgage.

I think I pay less tax with a LTD company but my personal income looks lower (due to LTD company paying corp. tax and expenses). Is this a reasonable concern?

Say the turnover for the year was £50,000.
£10,000 of expenses (bank fees, accountant, working from home, including £5,000 of sub-contractor costs)
Then about £5,000 of corporation tax.

That leaves £35,000 of money for me, with £8,000 of salary and £27,000 dividends.

So if wanted to rent or buy a house, I assume I could show an income of £35,000.

However, if I was self employed, could I show an income of £40,000 to the estate agents (for renting) (as I could include the £5,000 I didn't pay in corp tax.

Plus I'd have less expenses as accountant fees would be lower. And maybe I couldn't claim for things like use of home.

Am I right in thinking if I was self employed, income given for this purpose (mortage or renting) would be pre-tax, rather than after tax?

I probably pay less tax with a LTD company, but on paper I earn less which will/might cause problems with housing?

Or would an estate agent/mortgage person look at the pre-tax earnings of the LTD company?

Any thoughts or advice on this much appreciated. Thanks.

You have a point, but a lot of mortgage advisers/mortgage providers are aware more and more individuals are operating through a limited company. When our clients who operate through a ltd company and require mortgage documents the mortgage provider often requires an accountants certificate showing the turnover and profit of the limited company as well as the individuals personal income and reference to their shareholding.

The reason they ask for this now is that it is possible that an individual is a sole shareholder of a million pound turnover business but their personal circumstances mean that they only withdraw a small salary and dividends - although if they wanted to they could withdraw much more!
 
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Taxed

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Nov 4, 2016
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@Adam93 thanks. That is good to know. Do you know if the same works with estate agents and renting? Often they have a minimum earning requirement to get a place, so people able to use the turnover or pre-tax profit from the LTD company would be useful.

Also, there are two directors and they are 50/50 share holders and will be renting together (couple).
 
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Taxed

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Thanks. I'm talking to estate agents now about renting and how much rent they think I can afford each month.

The pre-tax profits of the LTD company was about £41,000 which is just about enough to rent somewhere where I live (using the 30 x monthly rent figure).

There was about £5,000 corporation tax.

But after paying the corp tax and then both taking a salary and dividends we only had £36,000 income between us which isn't enough to rent somewhere here.

If we'd been regular self-employed (not LTD company), our pre-tax income would be £20,500 each (£41,000).

There was also the other LTD company expenses such as the accountant (£1200, use of home, etc) which we probably wouldn't have had if we were regular self employed and would've pushed our income on paper up more to perhaps £43,000 which would be better for trying to rent somewhere to live.

Unless an rental estate agent would look at the LTD company accounts, we'd be better off being self employed and paying more tax but earning more on paper.

Does no one else here rent and work through a LTD company? Or are you all making so much you just pay 12 months up front in cash?
 
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Taxed

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Also, is it possible to take all the profit from the business as a salary so there is no corporate tax paid?

Say the LTD had a turnover of £50,000 with £5,000 expenses, could the £45,000 be paid as a salary?

Instead of doing £50,000, minus £5,000 expenses, minus £8,000 salary, minus corporation tax, with the rest going out as dividends?

Also, do you have to claim all expenses? Such as working from home allowance, internet costs, etc? Or is that fraud as it makes it look like the business has earned more than it did?

Thanks
 
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Scalloway

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Also, is it possible to take all the profit from the business as a salary so there is no corporate tax paid?

Yes you can pay whatever salary you want. You have no obligation to claim these expenses.

Can I suggest starting a new thread? There are a number of people who post regularly about how to get a mortgage but I suspect they never look at this particular thread.
 
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Ab2785

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Mar 9, 2018
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Hi All,

In the process of purchasing a successful Trading Restaurant. I’m purchasing the entire Business including the freehold with the help of a commercial loan and putting down approx 250k Myself.

I’m buying the property in my name personally. I’m aware of the limited liability benefits the company would have. The current owner operates as a sole trader despite turnover being in excess of £1m.

Question is should I trade as a Limited Company or sole trader? Or perhaps start as a sole trader and then change to an Ltd company further down the line?

Many thanks

AB
 
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KAC

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    If you're investing £250K of your own money, you ought to be getting face to face advice from a qualified accountant and not seeking advice on a forum when we cannot possibly be aware of all the relevant information concerning your plans and your personal circumstances.

    Have you taken advice on the structure of the purchase? Are you buying just the assets? Have you agreed the allocation of the purchase price? Are you aware of your potential liabilities under TUPE?

    But good luck with your plans. As @Scalloway has said it is a very risky business. Even Jamie Oliver is having problems at the moment as are a number of other well known names in the press at the moment.
     
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    Ab2785

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    Thanks both for your replies. Yes I have had my accountants look at the deal closely. The apportionment has been sorted and I’m aware of my obligations under TUPE etc.

    The accountants have suggested I buy the freelhold personally then I lease the property to a limited company which in turn would be the legal entity buying the current goodwill of the business.

    I’m already in the restaurant trade but with this being a somewhat larger operation the use of a ltd company has been suggested for its limited liability protection.

    My predominant reason for asking the question was because I’m curious about which structure is the most tax efficient way to draw profits from the business.

    My other concern is that I would have to pay tax on the rental capital received from the company in order to pay the Commercial mortgage.
     
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    AlexSmith2

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    Mar 16, 2018
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    Fascinating thread.

    I am thinking of setting up a new, fairly small UK business and was keen to know how much paperwork and administration was involved every year in running a limited company i.e. one registered with Companies House?

    The business won't be very big. It will provide consultancy services to other businesses and should "only" involve about twenty payments going into and another fifteen going out of the business bank account every month.

    I am already fed-up with adminstration in other parts of my life and so am concerned that the amount of red tape will keep me tied to my computer on Sunday evenings forevermore doing this and that!

    HMRC will soon require filings every quarter, as well as the annual paperwork for them, and then there's calculating the income, every single expenditure, all the VAT etc.

    I think for such a small company it'll be more efficient and quicker doing it myself than dealing with an external party - an accountant - all the time.

    Very approximately, how many hours every month or year does all the admin with Companies House, HMRC etc. take? I appreciate it varies from business to business.

    Your advice would be most welcome! Thank you.
     
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    Scalloway

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    It depends what you mean the admin with Companies House, HMRC etc. To my mind that is putting all the figures that have been compiled during the year into the forms provided by Companies House by HMRC. That takes a few hours of slotting figures in under the correct headings and doing the adjustments from book profit to taxable profit (remove non deductible items, add back depreciation and deduct capital allowances etc.

    During the year the bank will have been reconciled monthly, debtor, creditors and other control accounts reconciled at the year end. The fixed asset register will be up to date. And probably a few other things I have forgotten.
     
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    Newchodge

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    Fascinating thread.

    I am thinking of setting up a new, fairly small UK business and was keen to know how much paperwork and administration was involved every year in running a limited company i.e. one registered with Companies House?

    The business won't be very big. It will provide consultancy services to other businesses and should "only" involve about twenty payments going into and another fifteen going out of the business bank account every month.

    I am already fed-up with adminstration in other parts of my life and so am concerned that the amount of red tape will keep me tied to my computer on Sunday evenings forevermore doing this and that!

    HMRC will soon require filings every quarter, as well as the annual paperwork for them, and then there's calculating the income, every single expenditure, all the VAT etc.

    I think for such a small company it'll be more efficient and quicker doing it myself than dealing with an external party - an accountant - all the time.

    Very approximately, how many hours every month or year does all the admin with Companies House, HMRC etc. take? I appreciate it varies from business to business.

    Your advice would be most welcome! Thank you.

    Brilliant hijac of a thread. Congratulations.
     
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    Taxed

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    @Adam93 thanks. That is good to know. Do you know if the same works with estate agents and renting? Often they have a minimum earning requirement to get a place, so people able to use the turnover or pre-tax profit from the LTD company would be useful.

    Also, there are two directors and they are 50/50 share holders and will be renting together (couple).

    In case anyone else is working through a LTD company and renting, we have just gone through the process.

    The estate agents used the 30 x monthly rent is how much you must earn to pass the affordability test, EG £1000 p/m rent means you must earn £30,000 per year to pass.

    The estate agent seemed to know about LTD companies so we got through the first step.

    They used a third-party tenant referencing service but at first they didn't know about LTD companies in this scenario and just looked at our personal salary and dividends.

    However, after pursuing the matter, we spoke to someone who did understand our situation and after emailing a statement document from the LTD company, they agreed we met the affordability test.

    So it was touch and go but we got there in the end!
     
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    SoloLTD

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    Oct 26, 2018
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    My partner and I currently work through our LTD Company. But we don’t earn/generate that much income so I’m wondering if we would be better off switching to regular self-employed?

    The main deciding factor I think would be the expenses that can be claimed.

    Can anyone tell me if these expenses (that we claim now) can be claimed when working self-employed from home (and occasionally at a co working space):
    • Portion of house rent when working from home (Use of residence as office)?
    • Co working space (a place where we pay to work from – would this affect the above)?
    • Web hosting (for our business website)?
    • Computer software (web design stuff and accounting software)?
    • Computer hardware (might have to buy a new laptop in the next year or two)?
    • Accountancy fees (what we pay the accountant for doing the tax stuff)?
    • Foreign exchange losses AKA Realized Currency Exchange Gain/Loss (we get paid in USD and PayPal uses a lower exchange rate so we lose about a thousand GBP a year due to this)?
    • Bank/Finance Charges (PayPal fees on each client payment we receive)?
    • Subcontractor Costs (sometimes we have to hire people to do some of the work we take on)?
    • Home broadband connection (not sure if we claim that or not)?
    I think that’s about all of our expenses. We haven’t started a pension yet. But if we did start a SIPP, would that be an expense too?

    Also the cost of the accountant could be a factor too, depending on the difference between the cost of them doing the books for a LTD company vs. two people’s self-employed tax returns.

    Does anyone have a rough idea of how much an account charges for doing one person’s tax return? We log everything through FreeAgent so I think all the data would be there?

    It’s hard to say which is best because our income should go up each year, but it might not!

    Also, what’s the process for shutting down a LTD Company? Does it have a cost? Can we leave it inactive and come back to it later when our earnings pick up?

    Are there any good spreadsheets around that I can put all the details in and see what they say?

    I will ask our accountants but I’d like to get an idea myself first, as I assume it’s in the their best interests to keep me as LTD Company as they make more money from us that way!

    Many thanks!
     
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    Newchodge

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    My partner and I currently work through our LTD Company. But we don’t earn/generate that much income so I’m wondering if we would be better off switching to regular self-employed?

    The main deciding factor I think would be the expenses that can be claimed.

    Can anyone tell me if these expenses (that we claim now) can be claimed when working self-employed from home (and occasionally at a co working space):
    • Portion of house rent when working from home (Use of residence as office)?
    • Co working space (a place where we pay to work from – would this affect the above)?
    • Web hosting (for our business website)?
    • Computer software (web design stuff and accounting software)?
    • Computer hardware (might have to buy a new laptop in the next year or two)?
    • Accountancy fees (what we pay the accountant for doing the tax stuff)?
    • Foreign exchange losses AKA Realized Currency Exchange Gain/Loss (we get paid in USD and PayPal uses a lower exchange rate so we lose about a thousand GBP a year due to this)?
    • Bank/Finance Charges (PayPal fees on each client payment we receive)?
    • Subcontractor Costs (sometimes we have to hire people to do some of the work we take on)?
    • Home broadband connection (not sure if we claim that or not)?
    I think that’s about all of our expenses. We haven’t started a pension yet. But if we did start a SIPP, would that be an expense too?

    Also the cost of the accountant could be a factor too, depending on the difference between the cost of them doing the books for a LTD company vs. two people’s self-employed tax returns.

    Does anyone have a rough idea of how much an account charges for doing one person’s tax return? We log everything through FreeAgent so I think all the data would be there?

    It’s hard to say which is best because our income should go up each year, but it might not!

    Also, what’s the process for shutting down a LTD Company? Does it have a cost? Can we leave it inactive and come back to it later when our earnings pick up?

    Are there any good spreadsheets around that I can put all the details in and see what they say?

    I will ask our accountants but I’d like to get an idea myself first, as I assume it’s in the their best interests to keep me as LTD Company as they make more money from us that way!

    Many thanks!

    Why do you think you would generate more income self employed than as part of your own ltd company? What do you think would drive such a change?
     
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    SoloLTD

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    Why do you think you would generate more income self employed than as part of your own ltd company? What do you think would drive such a change?

    Are you referring to this bit:
    Also, what’s the process for shutting down a LTD Company? Does it have a cost? Can we leave it inactive and come back to it later when our earnings pick up?
    If so, I meant that I hope we will be earning more next year and the one after, as we raise our rates, get more clients etc.

    If that happens, then it would make more financial sense to use a LTD company if we are doing £75k instead of £30k.

    It is my understanding that the more money you are generating the more sense to use a LTD company vs sole trader due to tax savings. Is that not right?

    Thanks
     
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    SoloLTD

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    No, I meant this bit
    Ah right.

    I was assuming that if you don't earn much, its better to work as a self employed sole trader as you pay less tax. Where as if you are earning more, it becomes tax efficient to use a LTD company.

    But running some rough numbers, it seems like the LTD is almost always better?

    For example, this surprised me:

    LTD Company Scenario:

    If we were generating £50,000, then we would each get a salary of £8,160 then pay 19 percent corporation tax on the left overs (19 percent of £33,680 is £6,399 in tax). Then dividend tax on the remaining £43,601 (43,601 / 2 = 21,800 then dividend tax would be 1,208 for each of us so £2,416 for both of us.

    So corporation tax of £6,399 + 2 dividend tax of £2,416 is £8,815

    Sole Trader Scenario:

    Where as if we were self employed, we'd get £25,000 each and pay £4,619 tax and NI each or £9,238 in total.

    LTD Company scenario pays £423 less tax!

    Hmm. Seems like its always better to be working through a LTD company then?

    I guess the accountants fees could make the difference? £1,000 roughly for a LTD company vs, whatever is charged to do two personal tax returns? Although I think we also pay the accountant to submit our personal tax returns in addition to doing the company returns. Does that sound normal? So we might be paying for both already!
     
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    Newchodge

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    You can't caim against tax for an accountantt doing your personal tax return - that isn't a business expense, that's a personal expense. You can charge against tax for the accountant doing the work on your sole trader accounts to produce the figures that go on your personal tax return for self employment - subtle difference.
     
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    KAC

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    You can't caim against tax for an accountantt doing your personal tax return - that isn't a business expense, that's a personal expense. You can charge against tax for the accountant doing the work on your sole trader accounts to produce the figures that go on your personal tax return for self employment - subtle difference.
    Too subtle for most accountants who usually just charge one fee, all of which miraculously appears in the sole trader accounts ;)

    For limited companies a notional figure for the directors' returns frequently goes on their P11D forms with the company paying the fee
     
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    MyAccountantOnline

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    My partner and I currently work through our LTD Company. But we don’t earn/generate that much income so I’m wondering if we would be better off switching to regular self-employed?

    The main deciding factor I think would be the expenses that can be claimed.

    Can anyone tell me if these expenses (that we claim now) can be claimed when working self-employed from home (and occasionally at a co working space):
    • Portion of house rent when working from home (Use of residence as office)?
    • Co working space (a place where we pay to work from – would this affect the above)?
    • Web hosting (for our business website)?
    • Computer software (web design stuff and accounting software)?
    • Computer hardware (might have to buy a new laptop in the next year or two)?
    • Accountancy fees (what we pay the accountant for doing the tax stuff)?
    • Foreign exchange losses AKA Realized Currency Exchange Gain/Loss (we get paid in USD and PayPal uses a lower exchange rate so we lose about a thousand GBP a year due to this)?
    • Bank/Finance Charges (PayPal fees on each client payment we receive)?
    • Subcontractor Costs (sometimes we have to hire people to do some of the work we take on)?
    • Home broadband connection (not sure if we claim that or not)?
    I think that’s about all of our expenses. We haven’t started a pension yet. But if we did start a SIPP, would that be an expense too?

    Also the cost of the accountant could be a factor too, depending on the difference between the cost of them doing the books for a LTD company vs. two people’s self-employed tax returns.

    Does anyone have a rough idea of how much an account charges for doing one person’s tax return? We log everything through FreeAgent so I think all the data would be there?

    It’s hard to say which is best because our income should go up each year, but it might not!

    Also, what’s the process for shutting down a LTD Company? Does it have a cost? Can we leave it inactive and come back to it later when our earnings pick up?

    Are there any good spreadsheets around that I can put all the details in and see what they say?

    I will ask our accountants but I’d like to get an idea myself first, as I assume it’s in the their best interests to keep me as LTD Company as they make more money from us that way!

    Many thanks!

    I dont agree that the main deciding factor should be the expenses that can be claimed.

    As you've got an accountant already ask them to tell you how much tax you would have paid/will pay trading as a sole trader/partnership in comparison to the company. Then compare that taking into account the admin costs ie accountancy fees etc.
     
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    SoloLTD

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    Oct 26, 2018
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    Thanks. Will speak to them when I can.

    Before I do, let me ask just one more little question about expenses against tax due.

    Say the company had £100,000 of profit before tax and therefore owes £19,000 in corporate tax.

    Say if the company needed a new computer, and they bought one for £1,000.

    Would the company now owe £18,810 in corporate tax (19 percent of £99,000)?

    So the laptop really cost £810 (the difference between the profit of £81,000 (no laptop) and £80,190 (laptop)?

    Thanks
     
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    Scalloway

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    Before I do, let me ask just one more little question about expenses against tax due.

    Say the company had £100,000 of profit before tax and therefore owes £19,000 in corporate tax.

    Say if the company needed a new computer, and they bought one for £1,000.

    Would the company now owe £18,810 in corporate tax (19 percent of £99,000)?

    So the laptop really cost £810 (the difference between the profit of £81,000 (no laptop) and £80,190 (laptop)?

    Thanks

    If the company choose to claim the full amount as AIA then yes.
     
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    AccountantLife

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    When your income goes over basic rate you should seriously consider going Limited. Your tax savings will be much greater than the extra accounting fees and companies House filings.

    You will only pay 19% corporation tax in 2019 and this is further going down to 18%. This can also be greatly reduced by running a payroll for around 8k which will reduce your corporation tax by further 1.5k.

    Even with all the changes to dividends over the last couple of years, it is still the most tax efficient way of drawing money from business

    One of the bigger reasons to go Limited I think is retutation. Your customers may perceive your company as more professional if it is a limited company. At the end of the day it is all about perception.



    .
     
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    MyAccountantOnline

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    When your income goes over basic rate you should seriously consider going Limited. Your tax savings will be much greater than the extra accounting fees and companies House filings.

    You will only pay 19% corporation tax in 2019 and this is further going down to 18%. This can also be greatly reduced by running a payroll for around 8k which will reduce your corporation tax by further 1.5k.
    ...

    .

    Your suggestion to pay an £8k salary may save Corporation tax of £1,520, but, it'll cost at least £3,200 in Income tax for a higher rate tax payer.

    I hope you've not suggested that to too many of your clients. :eek:
     
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    MyAccountantOnline

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    ....

    One of the bigger reasons to go Limited I think is retutation. Your customers may perceive your company as more professional if it is a limited company. At the end of the day it is all about perception.

    .

    That is WAY down my list when I'm looking at incorporating a clients business.
     
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    AccountantLife

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    Your suggestion to pay an £8k salary may save Corporation tax of £1,520, but, it'll cost at least £3,200 in Income tax for a higher rate tax payer.

    I hope you've not suggested that to too many of your clients. :eek:
    If the money is going through the limited company he is no longer higher rate tax payer. His salary is 8k plus dividends that are declared
     
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    MyAccountantOnline

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    If the money is going through the limited company he is no longer higher rate tax payer. His salary is 8k plus dividends that are declared

    I'm glad you added that ;)
     
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    MyAccountantOnline

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    Was talking from the client perspective

    Thanks for the clarification but you did state (my underline)

    ''One of the bigger reasons to go Limited I think is retutation.''

    As mentioned that would be way down my list.
     
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    My partner and I currently work through our LTD Company. But we don’t earn/generate that much income so I’m wondering if we would be better off switching to regular self-employed?

    The main deciding factor I think would be the expenses that can be claimed.

    Can anyone tell me if these expenses (that we claim now) can be claimed when working self-employed from home (and occasionally at a co working space):
    • Portion of house rent when working from home (Use of residence as office)?
    • Co working space (a place where we pay to work from – would this affect the above)?
    • Web hosting (for our business website)?
    • Computer software (web design stuff and accounting software)?
    • Computer hardware (might have to buy a new laptop in the next year or two)?
    • Accountancy fees (what we pay the accountant for doing the tax stuff)?
    • Foreign exchange losses AKA Realized Currency Exchange Gain/Loss (we get paid in USD and PayPal uses a lower exchange rate so we lose about a thousand GBP a year due to this)?
    • Bank/Finance Charges (PayPal fees on each client payment we receive)?
    • Subcontractor Costs (sometimes we have to hire people to do some of the work we take on)?
    • Home broadband connection (not sure if we claim that or not)?
    I think that’s about all of our expenses. We haven’t started a pension yet. But if we did start a SIPP, would that be an expense too?

    Also the cost of the accountant could be a factor too, depending on the difference between the cost of them doing the books for a LTD company vs. two people’s self-employed tax returns.

    Does anyone have a rough idea of how much an account charges for doing one person’s tax return? We log everything through FreeAgent so I think all the data would be there?

    It’s hard to say which is best because our income should go up each year, but it might not!

    Also, what’s the process for shutting down a LTD Company? Does it have a cost? Can we leave it inactive and come back to it later when our earnings pick up?

    Are there any good spreadsheets around that I can put all the details in and see what they say?

    I will ask our accountants but I’d like to get an idea myself first, as I assume it’s in the their best interests to keep me as LTD Company as they make more money from us that way!

    Many thanks!

    Hey there! There are many advantages to running a Limited company compared to being self employed, some of which are listed below, so you may want to consider these before changing your business structure to being self employed.


    a) A ltd company will provide added confidence to external stakeholders such as suppliers and customers

    b) A ltd company’s profits will be subject to corporation tax rate which is much lower than personal income tax rates. A ltd company will pay corporation tax on it’s profits( which is currently 19%) compared to income tax rates which can be as high as 45% depending on how much you earn.

    c) The director’s liability is limited only to the value of its assets, so if the company was to go bankrupt, the director’s personal assets are not at risk of possession.

    d) The shares in the LTD company can be used to further expand the business.

    e) Limited companies offer better tax planning opportunities – for example every penny you earn in a tax year as a sole trader will be taxed that year, however with a limited company you can store money in your company and take in future years or use that money to invest in the business.

    f) It might be easier to obtain a bank loan


    If you are self employed(trading as a sole trader), you can claim any expenses that are incurred wholly and exclusively for the purposes of conducting your business,so most of the expenses that you are currently claiming, you should be able to claim if you were self employed as well. The gov uk has very handy section on which expenses you can and can’t claim when you are self employed.(It’s called “Expenses if you are self employed”).


    If you currently use your house as an office, you can also claim the portion of the rent and utilities that is used for your business. For example if you use half the rooms in your house for business, you can claim half the rent and utilities as your business expense.



    If you were to start paying into a personal pension and you were self employed, you will not be able to directly offset your pension contributions against your trading income from your business, but you will be able to get tax relief of your total annual income at your highest rate of income tax. However if you were to pay your pension contributions from your LTD company, you will be able to claim this as your company expense which in effect will reduce your taxable profit and hence reduce the corporation tax that you would pay.


    To close down a LTD company, you can apply for what’s called a voluntary strike off which costs £10. If the company has stopped trading, you can also make the company dormant and restart it again at a future date if it starts trading again. All of these processes explained in detail on the gov uk website,


    Administering a LTD company is more work( Corporation tax returns have to be filed, company accounts have to be made and filed, confirmation statements have to be done with companies house), so your accountant is likely to charge you more for this than doing two self assessment tax returns. The fees an accountant will charge for doing a tax return will vary depending on how complicated or simple your other tax affairs are, so its difficult to quote an estimated price.
     
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