So how many of you 'wing it' without using an accountant?

[Pish_Pash]

Just wondering.

I fully intended getting an accountant (still do), but having gone through all the pain of learning about VAT returns blah blah (I'm one of those that likes to know how the cogs turn) & now have all my internal systems 'linked' (therefore a customer clicks buy...all invoices are created, inventory decremented & accounts system updated - including all the VAT aspect etc), I'm feeling that perhaps I need to grow a bit more before I take onboard the extra fees incurred (yeah, yeah...I know...a good accountant will save me more than I pay out in fees)

Are there many on here 'winging it'...and if so - why?

 

[MyAccountantOnline]

I know this is a very bias response but my view as an accountant who has worked with small business for many years - I think a soletrader with a fairly small business who is happy to spend time reading and learning accounts and tax can generally manage, but, I see people getting in a terrible mess if they have a limited company and try to DIY all that's required.

The trouble with tax is that it is complex and often things will effect more than one tax.

An accountant wont always save you tax but will very often save you a lot of hassle and avoid you paying avoidable and unnecessary fines and penalties.

If you want to minimise accountancy fees the best thing you can do is to keep some really well kept accurate accounting records.

Accountants do take many years to qualify and gain the experience they need for good reason.

 

[MikeJ]

We run Sage in house, with a really good set of records. At the year end, we hand over a couple of boxes to our accountant, with everything filed by month. He polishes what we have, prepares the final accounts and checks through a few details with us.

I think the important thing is to understand bookkeeping, which you can do in house quite easily, and accounts which is best done by an accountant.

 

[GraemeL]

I am not winging it.

Balance sheets and the end of year reports required by HMRC are beyond me.

G

 

[Pish_Pash]

I am not winging it.

Balance sheets and the end of year reports required by HMRC are beyond me.

G

I tend to lean towards this view too .....I've noticed that there are some very competitive quotes on peopleperhour for submitting accounts to companies house & CT to HMRC (£80 - http://www.peopleperhour.com/hourli...acdfabce5bb0414cca83b89e2c8a88f1100e78f41c1cb ) ....which is the only bit that I've not tackled yet & frankly...I don't much fancy it!

Going the way of keeping tight accounts via software (Quickbooks etc) throughought the year & then handing over to someone else (who really knows what they're doing!) for the painful bit seems to be the way to go.

 

[GraemeL]

Yep.

Have you got P11D exemption?

 

[Pish_Pash]

Yep.

Have you got P11D exemption?

No...indeed just cacked my pants at your question (cos I remember the deadline has just past!), but then I've just referenced this (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/guidance/p11dguide.pdf)...

When don’t you need a form P11D?

You should not complete a P11D if there are
no expenses payments or benefits to be
returned for an individual.

...thankfully...that'll be me (like I say...I'm wingin' it!)

 

[GraemeL]

To be sure.......... as you are a Director (You are?) your total income from all sources must be less than £8,500 a year and you must not have received any expense payments to avoid need for P11D.

G

 

[Pish_Pash]

To be sure.......... as you are a Director (You are?) your total income from all sources must be less than £8,500 a year and you must not have received any expense payments to avoid need for P11D.

G

Like I say...that'll be me

 

[Paul_Rosser]

There is a difference between a bookkeeper and an accountant.

An accountant will generally offer you tax advice, file you year end accounts and personal tax returns.

A bookkeeper will look after the day to day recording of your business expenditure and sales, plus file VAT returns, produce management accounts etc.

It may seem like a good idea to do your own bookkeeping and even year end accounts and it is a great idea for business owners to know how VAT, Corporation Tax etc. works

However provided you aren't running a lifestyle business then you are much better off paying a professional and use the time you save to increase your turnover and profit more than you are paying for the service.

And yes some accountants will even save you money. Worked with a client recently who resisted getting an accountant but did earlier this year and the first thing their accountant did was put us in touch and the client received over £50k for previously paid Corporation Tax.

 

[Fred_the_frog]

Like I say...that'll be me

Do you have company medical insurance, company car, directors loan over £5k?

 

[Pish_Pash]

company medical insurance? lol ...(I'm 18 months into getting my new company running smoothly ...even though I spun a decent profit in year one, company medical insurance is right up there with things 'that cost wads' & that I'm not going to be pondering for at least a couple of decades!)

company car? nope .....(do people still bother with company cars, benefit in kind blah blah - maybe once I've got some neighbours that I want to impress?!!)

directors loan over £5k? ....Quite the opposite...my company actually owes me - I'm self funded to the tune of about £70K (vs. being bank funded)

 

[johndon68]

I can, and have, been doing 'accounts' for 15 years now and have a better than most understanding of the Balance Sheet and other financials but I wouldn't dream of doing the CT600 and other bits for my year end.

Whilst I probably could 'wing it', by the time I had, it would have been better to pay my accountant while I earn the money to pay the accountant

John

 

[Pish_Pash]

Whilst I probably could 'wing it', by the time I had, it would have been better to pay my accountant while I earn the money to pay the accountant

The thing is though...once you've done it once, it's not likely to be a problem for the next 15 years! It's just having the nous to do it once. I reckon I could probably wince & grimmace a CT return (if pushed)...& the only thing irking me about a companies house submission, is the odd electronic format they require it in (Quickbooks doesn't cater for it)

I guess I'm my own worst enemy....I have this ludicrous "it can't be that hard" mentality (which sends my wife insane...cos I apply it to all aspects of my life...often to my cost & often with epic fails! ...but then again, quite often I do pull it off).

For example I wonder how many people starting out with their own limited company baulk at doing their own VAT returns i.e. "Ooh, scary stuff...best leave that to those that know blah blah" .....frankly, it's not that difficult (just time consuming to learn and get into time efficient way of pulling all the data together)...and now I'm in the swing of it, I no longer dread VAT quarter ends!

Forming a company ...there's another wheeze that some want 'stupid o clock' money to do on your behalf (it took me about 10 minutes....5 minutes of that was double checking my information!) ...& on it goes.

 

[johndon68]

Vat Returns and company formation are, relatively, easy though, the implications of getting the CT600 wrong are not...

John

 

[Pish_Pash]

Vat Returns and company formation are easy though, the implications of getting the CT600 wrong are not...

John

Oh I tend to agree ...but it's always heartening to hear from those who have done it (but this is almost certainly one time I'll whip my wallet out!)

 

[lynxus]

Oh I tend to agree ...but it's always heartening to hear from those who have done it (but this is almost certainly one time I'll whip my wallet out!)

Plus doesn't paying an accountant come off your top line? ( Less profit = less tax? )

 

[Bob]

Vat Returns and company formation are, relatively, easy though, the implications of getting the CT600 wrong are not...

John

Similarly if there is more than one shareholder/director then getting the company formation wrong / not completing a shareholders' agreement can be one of the most expensive/disastrous mistakes that you can ever make, as evidence many of the posts on here where business "partners" have fallen out

 

[Pish_Pash]

Plus doesn't paying an accountant come off your top line? ( Less profit = less tax? )

yes, agreed but (to me) that's a peculiar way of looking at it .....actively seeking out cost to reduce your profit for things you might - in the main - be able to do yourself ...or my way of looking at it ...less profit = less money in my trousers to acquire beerage & other fun stuff!!

Now, the kind of cost I like to seek out (i.e. to reduce profits thereby impeding the filthy tax man violating the fruits of my labour) is stuff that I was going to buy out of my post tax income in the first place!!! (yeah, yeah I know...personal use yadda yadda)

i guess what you are saying is that it costs me 20% less to use an accountant than if I didn't have a limited company....but that's not compelling! For example let say it's gonna cost me £1500pa ...but wait.....yay, it's only gonna cost me £1200!!

Well, maybe I'm outta kilter with the norm, but 1200 big ones exiting my Co's bank account at this embryonic stage of my company is just a little bit chunky to sustain.

 

[Pish_Pash]

Similarly if there is more than one shareholder/director then getting the company formation wrong / not completing a shareholders' agreement can be one of the most expensive/disastrous mistakes that you can ever make

Fortunately, I'm a company of one.

 

[johndon68]

i guess what you are saying is that it costs me 20% less to use an accountant than if I didn't have a limited company....but that's not compelling! For example let say it's gonna cost me £1500pa ...but wait.....yay, it's only gonna cost me £1200!!

My accountant has saved me more money than I've paid him over the years due to other advice that he's given outside of preparing the year end accounts...

John

 

[GraemeL]

Do you have company medical insurance, company car, directors loan over £5k?

or company swim pool and gym?

 

[MyAccountantOnline]

To be sure.......... as you are a Director (You are?) your total income from all sources must be less than £8,500 a year and you must not have received any expense payments to avoid need for P11D.

G

The earnings threshold doesnt apply to directors. It does confuse a lot of people.

 

[GraemeL]

The earnings threshold doesnt apply to directors. It does confuse a lot of people.

Can I check that with you please?

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/guidance/p11dguide.pdf

When do you need a form P11D?

By law, at the end of each tax year you must give HMRC particulars of any expenses payments, benefits and facilities provided to:
• each employee or director earning at a rate
of £8,500 or more a year, and
• each director earning at a rate of less than £8,500 a year, unless they are
– a full-time working director with no......

Thanks

G

 

[Pish_Pash]

Not trying to troll, but there does seem to be a lot of contradictory stances/opinions on the accountancy sub forum....so much so it gets to the point that I start thinking "if they all can't agree & half of them are wrong, then why would I want to be paying them to be giving me the wrong guidance?" ...I guess the challenge is working out who is right...but to do that, I've got to research...& if I've got to research just to find the answer myself, then I may as well not pay an accountant!

 

[MyAccountantOnline]

Can I check that with you please?

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/guidance/p11dguide.pdf

When do you need a form P11D?

By law, at the end of each tax year you must give HMRC particulars of any expenses payments, benefits and facilities provided to:
• each employee or director earning at a rate
of £8,500 or more a year, and
• each director earning at a rate of less than £8,500 a year, unless they are
– a full-time working director with no......

Thanks

G

Hi G

Many people read it to be that that a P11D is only required for an employee or director earning over £8,500 - which is not the case.

You may find this helpful it explains exactly what forms are required and when under the section Forms P11D and P9D - which to use.

The A to Z guidance on the HMRC website here is also very helpful. It shows possible benefits and expenses which may be paid by a company and then details how and where they need to be reported.

 

[MyAccountantOnline]

Not trying to troll, but there does seem to be a lot of contradictory stances/opinions on the accountancy sub forum....so much so it gets to the point that I start thinking "if they all can't agree & half of them are wrong, then why would I want to be paying them to be giving me the wrong guidance?" ...I guess the challenge is working out who is right...but to do that, I've got to research...& if I've got to research just to find the answer myself, then I may as well not pay an accountant!

Appreciate what you are saying but opinions and comments on a forum are very different to proper specific professional advice given to a paying client.

 

[Pish_Pash]

Yay, we have a wing'er...

http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/t...s-figures-in-my-first-year-of-trading.329200/

respect.

 

[Fred_the_frog]

Appreciate what you are saying but opinions and comments on a forum are very different to proper specific professional advice given to a paying client.

And usually the OP isn't very clear so everyone interprets it a different way.

The thing is though...once you've done it once, it's not likely to be a problem for the next 15 years!

Until you can't work something out and you realise it's because you did something wrong a few years ago haha.

 

[wearewattle]

for the love of god, if you dont want to become a statistic and if you have even half a brain pay the £100 a month it will cost you to do this correctly, if you wont or cant, then start practising the following statement "would you like frys with that?"

 

[Pish_Pash]

if you wont or cant, then start practising the following statement "would you like frys with that?"

If you're going to be patronising, it's normally prudent to make sure you're watertight first, ahem....

"Would you like fries with that?"

Re being a statistic, I'm already turning a profit & the month on month sales charts are angled in the right direction - or is spinning a profit only possible by paying £100 per month? (thought for the day: If accountants are essential wrt adding value to a business, why are there any accountants? (surely they'd all be running businesses themselves? ;-) )

 

[Bob]

[QUOTE="Pish_Pash, post: 2440736, member: 163218"
why are there any accountants? (surely they'd all be running businesses themselves? )[/QUOTE]
Most of them do

 

[wearewattle]

If you're going to be patronising, it's normally prudent to make sure you're watertight first, ahem....

"Would you like fries with that?"

Re being a statistic, I'm already turning a profit & the month on month sales charts are angled in the right direction - or is spinning a profit only possible by paying £100 per month? (thought for the day: If accountants are essential wrt adding value to a business, why are there any accountants? (surely they'd all be running businesses themselves? )

Well it is good that you are practising!

Look - you are the one asking about avoiding the use of an accountant. Seriously, come on! Snap out of it! You do know how many new businesses fail in the first couple of years? Why mess around? Pay an accountant and set off on the right foot.

 

[Pish_Pash]

I actually contacted one member from here (he said he wasn't taking on new clients - he has no idea where his enquiry came from, so it wasn't a personal thing! Shame)

Look, I will be getting an accountant ...as I've said, I don't fancy the CT & Companies house submission....but the thread has pretty much reinforced that probablly the best template to follow (for me at least), is me to do the bookkeeping via Quickbooks...and the accountant to do the 'deep down & dirty stuff'

I didn't start the thread to convince myself not to get an accountant, but did wonder how many are getting by without one....not many so it seems.

Case closed.

 

[altwebdesign]

Nope, I use an accountant and they have been invaluable to me and guided me to some good svaings as well as advising on growing my business.

 

[MASSEY]

If you are ltd then i'd say it would probably pay dividends in terms of saving time and money.

Whether every self employed sole trader or small company benefits from having one would probably be debatable. I know a plumber who was being charged £600 quid a year when all he did was inform them what he had earned and what he had spent, he could have done that himself on a tax return and saved 600.

 

[Rob Holmes]

I know when I was self employed it was 'cheaper' paying an accountant to maximise my savings than it was to try and do this on my own

 

[UK Contractor Accountant]

There is also one other thing to consider when you DIY - when HMRC are looking for its quota of tax enquiries for the month which Tax Returns do you think they are going to look at a bit more closely those submitted by a firm of Qualified Accountants or the DIY'ers?

 

[David Griffiths]

There is also one other thing to consider when you DIY - when HMRC are looking for its quota of tax enquiries for the month which Tax Returns do you think they are going to look at a bit more closely those submitted by a firm of Qualified Accountants or the DIY'ers?

Not related to an enquiry, but I had a phone call from HMRC a few years back asking if I needed help to get my self assessment done in time. Apparently they were telephoning taxpayers who didn't have agents, I gently suggested that I might actually know more about it than she did! All in good humour and no offence either way.

 

[Nuno]

I winged it for a number of years. Never qualified, I did a couple of years with a large firm, (Deloittes) before starting a business more to my liking. I thought this would be enough to sail/wing/cruise it.

After a decade I had made such a cobblers of it I ended up paying an accountant a large amount, (which he deserved), for saving me from bankruptcy, saving my house, pensions and probably marriage too.

My advice? Really, really, don't wing it.

If you're going to be patronising, it's normally prudent to make sure you're watertight first, ahem....

"Would you like fries with that?"

Sadly pedantry doesn't keep the law, or creditors, at bay.