SEO - Link building advice

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realmaverick

Hey Chaps,

I'm doin pretty good with this SEO business but I'm having problems with one aspect and that's links.

One of the companies I run is an electricians company and it's difficult to get a competitor to link to us.

I do want to try to keep links relevant, so either Trades or websites in Essex.

Do you have a website that fills this criteria and fancy exchanging links?

Or do you have some wisdom to share?

Thanks in advance

Paul
 
P

philbaynes

the best, strongest and normally the most simple to obtain is a link from ebay to your site. Either open an ebay shop or speak to someone that does. This link really makes a visible difference to your positioning
 
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R

realmaverick

I've done the whole ppc thing years ago, I was a victim of click fraud and despite my £60,000 a year campaign Google did nothing to resolve the matter.

Since then I've steered clear from PPC and I honestly don't think it would alter my organic rank. Logically google would lower your organic rank to push you in to higher spend PPC.

I've signed up for many 'free' directories but then I get a call the next day with the hard sell of their benefits of being a paid customer, grrr they piss me off.

I've joined DMOZ and the other great free directories though.
 
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Might seems a bit obvious but have you thought of linkbait as the source of organic links? I'm sure an electricians would have good advice to share in any number of "ten ways not to do to get electrified" - the social bookmarking scene loves that sort of thing.

As you are no doubt aware if you want people to link to you you need to give them a reason. Is there no way your site can become an authority on one aspect of the sector over the next year?

Just a thought
 
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Hey Chaps,

I'm doin pretty good with this SEO business but I'm having problems with one aspect and that's links.

One of the companies I run is an electricians company and it's difficult to get a competitor to link to us.

I do want to try to keep links relevant, so either Trades or websites in Essex.

Do you have a website that fills this criteria and fancy exchanging links?

Or do you have some wisdom to share?

Thanks in advance

Paul

Easy - just find some precise vericals - in another country - and trade links - simple
 
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Ohhh, another thing - get the business listed on google maps - big boost if done from a regisitered google account (your customers account - not yours!).

You apply - they send you a PIN by snail mail (via Jamaica) - you log back in and enter the PIN - this verifies the address as legit = big boost!

Example:

http://maps.google.co.uk/

Great for small local trades

So when someone searches "Lion Tamer Alaska" your customer will come up (if they are a lion tamer in Alaska :redface: ) - with the map, pointer, directions, etc, etc

This is a great thing Google have done for small business

PS - use your customers address not yours - or it will go t**ts up :)

Oh - and its FREE
 
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I, Brian

Free Member
May 18, 2005
1,964
822
Hey Chaps,

I'm doin pretty good with this SEO business but I'm having problems with one aspect and that's links.

One of the companies I run is an electricians company and it's difficult to get a competitor to link to us.

I do want to try to keep links relevant, so either Trades or websites in Essex.

Do you have a website that fills this criteria and fancy exchanging links?

Or do you have some wisdom to share?

Thanks in advance

Paul

To be honest, I think relying on link exchanges for ranking purposes is chasing the wrong cat - Google's already shown the ability to spot and devalue link exchange networks - and the websites involved - since Oct 2005.

Here's a little hint:
http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/google-hell/
 
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3rigena

Free Member
Apr 2, 2007
55
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UK
Cutts can say what he wants. PR is important, as is getting linked from high-pr pages is important..

Cutts etc have created a pagerank economy.. that's too bad.. now they have increased the dampening factor, or twiddled some other pagarank algorithm switch, to reduce PR across the board.. however doubt not that PR is important for inbounds..

I didn't get to where I am on the serps (page 1 for all my targeted keywords) in 4 months for nothing. All google understands is links and good SEO..

Niall
 
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phillmidwinter

Free Member
May 9, 2007
26
0
Leeds
Cutts can say what he wants. PR is important, as is getting linked from high-pr pages is important..

Cutts etc have created a pagerank economy.. that's too bad.. now they have increased the dampening factor, or twiddled some other pagarank algorithm switch, to reduce PR across the board.. however doubt not that PR is important for inbounds..

I didn't get to where I am on the serps (page 1 for all my targeted keywords) in 4 months for nothing. All google understands is links and good SEO..

Niall

PR is significantly less important than a myriad of other factors, since the last algorithm updates (about a week or two ago now). It's far easier to target niche keywords on a long tail basis and specific keywords on a currency basis now.
 
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PR is significantly less important than a myriad of other factors,.

I find the whole "PR has no value" hard to bite, if you remove it's significance then you rely solely on page content/SEO, and that is straight back to the days of content spam... off to insert some keywords in my header ;)

The only way to rate a site is via link popularity from other sites. If not how would you do it??

James.
 
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3rigena

Free Member
Apr 2, 2007
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UK
It's far easier to target niche keywords on a long tail basis and specific keywords on a currency basis now.

100% agree, however call me a masochist- I primarily target the big keywords, (with a smidge of long-tail content & keywords for good measure..)

(for anyone who doesn't know what we are talking about, check out hittail.com - who knows, you might find some good keywords to target for your business niche)
 
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I, Brian

Free Member
May 18, 2005
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I find the whole "PR has no value" hard to bite, if you remove it's significance then you rely solely on page content/SEO, and that is straight back to the days of content spam...

Not really - these days Google is much more concerned with site authority and link trust values - neither of which have much correlation with Toolbar PageRank values.

Buy links on a 1 year old PR7 and you'll get less ranking impact than buying links on a 5 years old PR5.

2c.
 
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Tin

Business Member
Nov 14, 2005
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www.tinsoldierdesign.co.uk
Brian makes a good point, Google is far more savvy than a few years ago and is very proactive at taking onboard the trust/integrity factors surrounding sites.

I find the whole "PR has no value" hard to bite, if you remove it's significance then you rely solely on page content/SEO, and that is straight back to the days of content spam

That's not the way I see it. PR has definitely lost a lot of credibility as a means to an end, it's no longer 'automatically' trusted as an indicator of value except in certain circumstances and the ease and availability of high PR links has no doubt contributed to this end game.

Neither do I see that removing PR will take us back to the days of content spamming, why would it? Yes, Google did fall foul of that in the early days but today it's a fairly tight regime (yes, it does get caught out) but I've seen a significant reduction in high 'content spam rankings' as the years have rolled by.

Just my 2p

Ray
 
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Yes Tin, Google is far more savvy, but as Brian (inadvertently) points out;

Buy links on a 1 year old PR7 and you'll get less ranking impact than buying links on a 5 years old PR5

Did you notice the mention of PR7 and PR5 in there? Therefore pagerank IS relevant.

If pagerank had no relevance then buying a link on a PR1 would be equal to buying one on a PR9.

If it wasn't relevant I would be happy for my site to only be PR4.. which I am not :rolleyes: I would like to think that PR counted for nothing but funnily enough my sites that are at the top of the SE's are all minimum PR4.
 
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Tin

Business Member
Nov 14, 2005
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www.tinsoldierdesign.co.uk
Hi Nina, there's lots of different ways to content spam, here's one example which should give you the idea.

----------------------------------------------------

Dog Grooming Service

Welcome to my dog grooming service. Our dog grooming service keeps your dog groomed to perfection so take a look at our dog grooming prices now.

As well as dog grooming we also offer CAT GROOMING SERVICES (these last 3 words would form the words in the link going to the cat grooming page).For prices on our cat grooming services please see our cat grooming (the last 2 words would be used for linking to the cat grooming page) page which is right next to our dog grooming page located below our Budgie manicure service.



--------------------------------------------------

I looked at your homepage Nina and picked on a "fictitious" theme closely related to you in order to make my example more relevant.

The above words form the "content" of a page.
The "spam" in this instance is the excessive overuse of keywords (which will be either bolded words or non bolded)

You can see that the flow of words make little sense. They simply don't read right. Part of seo is working on words in certain ways so that the 'flow' of the content within each page reads correctly whilst at the same time making effective use of your targeted words.

Hope that helps a bit.

 
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I, Brian

Free Member
May 18, 2005
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Did you notice the mention of PR7 and PR5 in there? Therefore pagerank IS relevant.

General webmasters will look at a PR7 page and presume it has better link benefits than a PR5 page. My point was to illustrate that appraising link value on a PageRank basis only will - in my opinion - lead to a completely erroneous value judgement.

These days buying or developing links for ranking purposes on Google needs to focus more on the "trust" and "authority" factors. Yes, you can use PageRank values as a qualitative indicator (a metaphor for the site's link profile if you will), but needs placing in context with other factors.

2c.
 
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I appreciate what you are saying Brian (of course) but I fail to see how a site that is PR7 would fail to have any 'trust rank' Generally it's hard to be a PR7 without a shed load of links already.

Can you actually provide any stats to show that a link from a 1 year old PR7 is worth less than a 5 year old PR5, or is this speculation?

The gap between a PR7 and PR5 is massive, I would take the PR7 first, followed closely by the PR5 :)

(NOTE: my post is only trying to dispell the theory that PR is valuless, which I see a lot of people mentioning lately)

James.
 
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Does it surprise you that your competitors do not want to link to you?
You need to approach electrical associations trade bodies ,non commercial bodies e.t.c
I would never dream of linking to a site that was in direct competition with me.
As for the idea that google favours sites that do (PPC) forget it read Matt Cutts blog and he is the main man at google .
I think this fallacy may be put about by companies promoting PPC.
And remember good SEO will always beat link gathering :)
 
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RedEvo

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May 12, 2007
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I'm reading this thread with interest as it's a general hot topic in my line of business. It's SO misunderstood and is shrouded in mystery and rumour and there is a lot of nonsense spoken about the subject NOT in this thread I hasten to add, I'm not having a pop at anyone in this thread.

Here's the BIG secret with respect to SEO...........THERE IS NO BIG SECRET and anyone who tells you there is is a liar. If you employ a 'trick' to get to the top of Google your stay there will be short lived. If you spend hours or days or weeks securing links from poor websites they will have almost no positive impact on your site.

To understand why linking plays an important part in the ever changing Google algorithms you need to understand the origins of Google itself. The Google boys were PhD students, they are/were academics. Academia thrives on peer reviewed papers. These are researched tomes that stand up by covering all their assertions with citations to other research sources. If a paper references another paper the paper being referenced is further validated and so it goes on. In an academic paper you can't for example state that doing X will have result Y unless you say something like doing X will have result Y as proven in 'Why doing X causes Y: Smith, J & Bloggs, F 1997'. Cut the Google boys in half and this philosophy is printed through their core.

As an aside Sir Tim Berners Lee created the web to allow research to be cross referenced in this way using hyper linking.

So, linking is important because it reinforces what you are saying by referencing things that back it up. Creating links just for the sake of it is not going to have such a huge impact - possibly any!

So this takes us to the question of how to secure links. Well that's easy - or rather it isn't - because it boils down to content. Content was, is and always will be king. Create a website - with a fantastic or rubbish design - put dodgy content in it and it will NEVER achieve a solid and LASTING Google ranking. It might rank for a while until the algorithm changes again then it will fall off the face or webland.

On the other hand if you concentrate on creating a killer site with best of breed content then you will build a site that lasts, ranks and works for you.

If you've got money to spend, spend it on creating killer content, you'd be amazed at how the quality links will start coming in if your website has something to say.

So often people put 100% effort into a websites look and feel and 0% effort into the content then expect a page 1 Google position. If you have a site trying to sell stuff and you can't create great content that quality sites would want to link to stick to PPC, that's what PPC is for.

Google is passionate about delivering the BEST results to its users, it's what it lives for. If your site is rubbish Google will eventually wise up to this and your business may loose it's position overnight, trust me on this, there are many well documented case studies to back this up.

Just my two cents worth as they say :)
 
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I would agree with nearly everything that Red Evo has stated.Except from personell experience the importance of links.I have found time and time again that good SEO will invariably overcome the lack of links to a site in SERPs.
I will cite one of our sites http://www.seadoospares.com

This site has no google links and is just 3 pages and yet ranks No 2 on google for " sea doo spares " ?

anyone got an explanation ,because I don't fully understand why it should rank so high,but have had this situation many times with virgin sites against all the informed wisdom.
 
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RedEvo

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Google only has NINE references in its index for the exact phrase sea doo spares.

If you do the search you will see it state [SIZE=-1]Results 1 - 9 of 9 for "sea doo spares". Don't confuse this with [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Results 1 - 10 of about 194,000 for sea doo spares which is searching for any combination in part or otherwise.

SEO people will often show a client a page 1 result for an obscure search term, it's meaningless.

This phrase also has only 4 or so PPC advertisers showing up.

d


[/SIZE]
 
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I am reading all these snippets of information with interest. With regard to petsitters, there is one company that always tops google, and never falters. It is franchised and so all its smaller companies link back to their website. With this in mind, and looking at the threads here. I have no chance!

Nina
www.ninasnanniesforpets.co.uk

Don't lose hope. have u considered adwords?
 
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RedEvo

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...........With this in mind, and looking at the threads here. I have no chance!

Nina

You know Nina you might be right. An honest SEO consultant would advise this right from the start but you have to think laterally.

Start by establishing what people are searching for. Look for the 'long tail'. You will almost certainly never manage to beat them on keywords, key phrases are your way forward and perhaps PPC.

Look at the Overture keyword tool (free) for example. It will let you research what people are ACTUALLY searching for, not what you think they might be searching for. You'd be amazed! Find a phrase with high KEI, weave it into your content and you might be surprised. That said I have to say that a new business simply has to look at paying for traffic to establish itself. Organic search takes a long time.

d
 
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I would agree with nearly everything that Red Evo has stated.Except from personell experience the importance of links.I have found time and time again that good SEO will invariably overcome the lack of links to a site in SERPs.
I will cite one of our sites http://www.seadoospares.com

This site has no google links and is just 3 pages and yet ranks No 2 on google for " sea doo spares " ?

anyone got an explanation ,because I don't fully understand why it should rank so high,but have had this situation many times with virgin sites against all the informed wisdom.

1. Its keyword is its domain name
2. It has a link on the Whitstable Scene homepage using the keyword as link text
3. It is a very uncompetitve term

So, quite easy to understand really.
 
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OK i go along with that as an explaination ,but a 100 visitors a day would not seem to agree on it being such a low sought after term.
Oh how I have to struggle with you lot.
stick " golf part" in google and we are N0 1 with a PR 3 .I do hope the second highest selling car on the planet is not considered an obscure term,or I will throw me Dummy out the pram !!!!
 
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RedEvo

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OK i go along with that as an explaination ,but a 100 visitors a day would not seem to agree on it being such a low sought after term.

Nobody said people weren't visiting the site, what we said was no other sites were after that search term - different thing and Google only had 9 sites in its entire index with that exact search term. I'd be concerned as to why I wasn't No.1 for that :)

Can't comment on the second one as you never mentioned the site in question :)

You know with all this stuff what really matters is what people are actually searching for. Saying we are No.1 for the search term 'wibble' means nothing if people are not searching for the term wibble. It's what SEO tricksters use all the time.

What you should be saying is:

We have found people search for the term wibble X times a day on average across various search engines. There are 25000 sites competing for this search time BUT WE ARE No.1 ON GOOGLE - now that actually means something.

d
 
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I, Brian

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Can you actually provide any stats to show that a link from a 1 year old PR7 is worth less than a 5 year old PR5, or is this speculation?

It's experience. :)

I can assure you, people can accelerate the Toolbar PageRank value of a new site by buying a couple of high PR links. Although the toolbar may show a high value, the actual ranking benefits of placing links on such a site has - from experience - been nil.

Google generally trusts older domains (12-18+ months old) - and older domains often have much more natural and trustworthy link profiles - so regardless of the PageRank value on the pages of such a site, the links on such pages should be expected to accord a more stronger value from Google.

The gap between a PR7 and PR5 is massive, I would take the PR7 first, followed closely by the PR5 :)

I took one of my own sites from PR5 to PR7. Resultant increase in traffic? Zero. The PR increase came from a single source - not paid for - but already untrusted by Google. So the PageRank benefit was all shine, no substance.

(NOTE: my post is only trying to dispell the theory that PR is valuless, which I see a lot of people mentioning lately)

PageRank isn't entirely valueless, but by itself in SEO terms, it's not much.

As for RevEvo's post - if what's being said is that any serious business or project should focus on developing the best website and user experience they can - then I absolutely agree.

However, I can't agree that great content can by itself be expected to capture key rankings on Google for serious commercial keywords. Anyone with a relatively newer website has an uphill struggle because they likely don't have the degree of trust or even exposure to develop those natural links.

That's where a specialised link development campaign can really make the difference - heck, I'm taking a short break from writing a report for a client for whom I've achieved single keyword rankings in the finance sector - and there's not a chance in hell anyone is going to be able to rank for these unless they either: killer ancient domain/billion-dollar multinational/specialist link building campaign.

Clients without the first two need the former.

A really key point RedEvo made, though, was about making yourself part of the conversation - Google *is* trying to process a whole range of human user data to help modify it's ranking results. And the key to leveraging much of this is ensuring that when people talk about your subject, they talk about you as well. Social Media Marketing and all that. :)
2c.
 
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RedEvo

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However, I can't agree that great content can by itself be expected to capture key rankings on Google for serious commercial keywords. Anyone with a relatively newer website has an uphill struggle because they likely don't have the degree of trust or even exposure to develop those natural links.

I agree with this. We would always advise clients with commercial offerings to consider PPC to kickstart things. If they can't establish good quality linking because of poor content on their site then PPC might be their only Google exposure.

I'd be surprised if you could establish many credible incoming content based links unless you have invested effort creating great content.

There is a school of thought that suggests organic search results will increasingly smile on sites with great content as Google does not exist to help ACME Ltd sell widgets. Increasingly ACME will need to rely on PPC for exposure - just a thought.

d
 
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