Self Employed - 6 weeks to get registered

[OnlineSeller]

I realise I'm doing this very late in the day in that I only registered online 1 1/2 weeks for Self Registration. I started selling in April 2010 and I checked with HMRC previously that the 3 month rule no longer required for registration. All I had to do was complete a return by the deadlines. Being a little lazy in this area I only done that as per above. However having so far not received any details I've contacted HMRC yesterday where I was told that I should have been given a username and password when I registered online. I wasn't so today I contacted another number and this time I was told that it would be 6 weeks before I would receive my registration information. That would obviously mean that I can't now file a return on time as it's going to come after the year end.

Is this normal? 6 weeks just to get a number or have I just got another numpty? Anybody any better numbers to ring as they all seem to be clueless and keep telling me I should contact this or that but can't give me any numbers?

 

[MyAccountantOnline]

I realise I'm doing this very late in the day in that I only registered online 1 1/2 weeks for Self Registration. I started selling in April 2010 and I checked with HMRC previously that the 3 month rule no longer required for registration. All I had to do was complete a return by the deadlines. Being a little lazy in this area I only done that as per above. However having so far not received any details I've contacted HMRC yesterday where I was told that I should have been given a username and password when I registered online. I wasn't so today I contacted another number and this time I was told that it would be 6 weeks before I would receive my registration information. That would obviously mean that I can't now file a return on time as it's going to come after the year end.

Is this normal? 6 weeks just to get a number or have I just got another numpty? Anybody any better numbers to ring as they all seem to be clueless and keep telling me I should contact this or that but can't give me any numbers?

Yes delays of 6 weeks are quite normal for HM Revenue & Customs.

 

[OnlineSeller]

Oh well. I guess I'll have to pay their fines then

My own fault really I suppose though I didn't expect things to take so long. I thought it would all be automated. You apply online, the system spouts out your number and that's sent to you. A week max.

 

[Bob]

Assuming you have the 10 digit UTR, you could try and find an accountant to act for you as the majority of these are able to file online without further HMRC authorisation. They would however have to follow the normal engagement and money laundering procedures but this doesn't take 6 weeks !!

 

[OnlineSeller]

Assuming you have the 10 digit UTR, you could try and find an accountant to act for you as the majority of these are able to file online without further HMRC authorisation. They would however have to follow the normal engagement and money laundering procedures but this doesn't take 6 weeks !!

No I litterally only advised them online that I was registering for self employment via their website 1 1/2 weeks ago so that's what I was waiting on.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

The fine would be £100 if you file late.

Now of course I would say this but if you spend £29.99 plus vat for a file only service you still save on this ...

http://www.cheapaccounting.co.uk/fileonly.php

 

[OnlineSeller]

elainec100,

How can I file, even through your service, if I don't have a tax reference number yet and I'm not likely to get that for another 4+ weeks. I'm going to be late anyway or can you file without a tax reference number?

 

[FinancialModeller]

Once you receive your login details you will need to "register" for a service. So for you, you will need to register to use the Self Assessment service. HMRC will then send you an activation code by post that you have to enter before you can file your return. So bear in mind this additional delay as it will take a few days for it to come through.

If your tax affairs are relatively straightforward you may find an accountant who could file your return for cheaper than the fine which could add up to quite a lot (£100 for missing the dealine plus £10 per day for each day your return is late!).

Even if your tax affairs are quite complex, it's worth getting an accountant to do them for you. They'll be able to find tax exemptions and reliefs you've not even heard of! If anything, at least you have one "proper" tax return and then for subsequent years you can follow that pattern and do them yourself (clearly you risk being out of date with tax laws this way).

Hope that helps.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

Just asking our supplier the question - used to be able to file with a dummy UTR and recognised with NINO - bear with me just checking

 

[evocart]

When I registered for the HMRC online services my new user id was displayed on the site and then I got a got the service activation code through the post in about 7 days (though it says with ten days I think).

So not sure why you have to wait 6 weeks if we're talking about the same thing.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

just checked - nope sorry need UTR but if you do manage to get it in time bear us in mind. Sorry we can't help more on this.

 

[David Griffiths]

So not sure why you have to wait 6 weeks if we're talking about the same thing.

It's probably not the same thing. It seems as if the OP hasn't registered for self employment yet, which is step one where they issue his UTR

Then he needs to register for online filing, which is a separate step that can't be started until he has a UTR.

The last cases where we applied for UTRs for people took just short of four weeks to appear on their website when we logged in, but another week if we'd relied on the paper. So allow five weeks for that and then at least another week for online registration

 

[evocart]

It's probably not the same thing. It seems as if the OP hasn't registered for self employment yet

Well they said they started trading in April 2010, so nearly two years without registering as self employed? They will most probably get a fine for that alone as I know now you have to register on or before the day you start trading, but even if it was the old rules at the time then they should have done it within 3 months.

 

[OnlineSeller]

Thanks all. I already have all the info for the tax return ready however whether I'm claiming all that I should is another matter.

I think what I've confused everyone with is that I was registering my self employment status through their website. I think from what FinancialModeller is saying you then have to register for online services to allow you file online however I'm not at that stage yet as I haven't received my UTR yet. IOW as far as HMRC are concerned I'm still not registered for self employment.

Elaine (I presume) that would great if I could. That service of yours would then allow me to file and avoid the penalty which is going to be much greater saving than paying the penalty.

 

[OnlineSeller]

Well they said they started trading in April 2010, so nearly two years without registering as self employed? They will most probably get a fine for that alone as I know now you have to register on or before the day you start trading, but even if it was the old rules at the time then they should have done it within 3 months.

I spoke to HMRC last year and was advised that the 3 month rule was no longer in place so no penalty should arise from that however it will now because it's unlikely I will get a UTR before 31 Jan.

Can anyone advise if the 3 month rule is still being applied or was the info I got from them last year correct.

 

[evocart]

yes its true the three month rule was abolished, however it was replaced with stricter rules saying you must register on or before the date you start trading.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

Elaine (I presume) that would great if I could. That service of yours would then allow me to file and avoid the penalty which is going to be much greater saving than paying the penalty.

Fine - just give us a shout when you get the UTR and we can get it sorted for you.

 

[OnlineSeller]

yes its true the three month rule was abolished, however it was replaced with stricter rules saying you must register on or before the date you start trading.

Well they didn't tell me that part. So looks like I'm in for a hefty fine anyway. Anyone have any information on how that is calculated

 

[David Griffiths]

Well they didn't tell me that part. So looks like I'm in for a hefty fine anyway. Anyone have any information on how that is calculated

The fine is now geared around tax lost by HMRC. so if you pay the tax before 31 January there will be no penalty - their guidance is pretty vague tbh but that's the way that it seems to work.

If you don't have a UTR in time to pay, download a payslip here and send it with your NI Number completed

 

[OnlineSeller]

Thanks David that looks like a way round all this and avoid the fines too. I really should have sorted this last year when I made my earlier enquires but I just put it off as it didn't need to be done then unforunately time has just caught up on me. I'm sure I'm not the only fool out there :redface:

 

[evocart]

I'm sure I'm not the only fool out there :redface:

Nope your looking at one, just spent the last 3 weeks doing a years worth of filing and book keeping, still have about three months left to do

 

[OnlineSeller]

Nope your looking at one, just spent the last 3 weeks doing a years worth of filing and book keeping, still have about three months left to do

You do have my greatest of sympathies. I will, I will become more organised this year. I'm actually getting it all sorted and trying to bring all the current stuff uptodate as well so hopefully will be much better going forward.

 

[OnlineSeller]

OK,

I got my UTR today and registered online however I have to wait on an activation code now for online services. That can take 7 days. Let's see when that turns up though with the extension it may just happen.

I have to say I was pretty surprised when the letter turned up today.

 

[David Griffiths]

You need to understand that there is only a £100 penalty for not completing a return on time if a return has actually been issued.

If you have only just registered for self employment then you will not have been issued with a return yet. When a return is issued, you will be given three months to complete it.

The only penalty that you risk at the moment is the late notification penalty - if you pay your tax on time then there should be no penalty charged, or at least it will be minimised.

 

[OnlineSeller]

The only way to pay at the minute for me would be use the payment slip which was linked earlier in the posts and send it off by cheque to arrive no later than next Thursday. Is that correct?

How does the late notification penalty arise? I thought I now had until 31 January of the year following the tax year end to register for Self Employment and I've already registered for that now so I shouldn't get that fine either or is there something else I've missed?

Thanks

 

[Bob]

.... or you could use Elaine's file only service now that you have a UTR

 

[OnlineSeller]

.... or you could use Elaine's URL removed - too few posts -file only service[/URL] now that you have a UTR

On the HMRC website I thought it said that I had to have registered for online servies before I could use any external filing system. I was given the User ID when I signed up an hour ago however I have to wait for the activation code. Perhaps the user id is enough or not required at all as you have indicated.

 

[Bob]

On the HMRC website I thought it said that I had to have registered for online servies before I could use any external filing system. I was given the User ID when I signed up an hour ago however I have to wait for the activation code. Perhaps the user id is enough or not required at all as you have indicated.

Registered agents only need the UTR They're already registered for online services

 

[OnlineSeller]

Registered agents only need the UTR They're already registered for online services

Thanks - that's good news then.

 

[David Griffiths]

How does the late notification penalty arise? I thought I now had until 31 January of the year following the tax year end to register for Self Employment and I've already registered for that now so I shouldn't get that fine either or is there something else I've missed?

Thanks

You thought wrongly. You had until 5 October - see Q34 here.

There is more in the document about when the penalty will not be imposed.

 

[OnlineSeller]

Thanks David. That's frustrating as it was HMRC that told me that when I rang them last year to confirm with them as I was getting conflicting info.

I even confirmed it by saying that so long as I registered and paid before 31 January 2012 no penalties would be due to which given a flat yes. Oh well I'll just have to fatten their coffers a bit more.

Just need to finish the accounts now before I can do anything more anyway.

 

[OnlineSeller]

OK was doing a bit of searching to see if I could find anything about 31 January deadlines and couldn't other than the 3 month rule for registered for Class 2 National Insurance had such a rule and that now much be registered for before 31 January of the year following the tax year end.

So far all I have registered for are Self Employment using the online form at HMRC.

It's entitled:

Registering for Self Assessment and National Insurance contributions if you are a self-employed sole trader

So it looks as though that covers me registering for National Insurance as well and I presume Class 2 more specifically.

Is there anything else I need to do to register my self employed status and avoid any more potential fines?

 

[playboy_bunnie]

IMO I can't see why you wouldn't be getting a fine or back-payment for something?

You started in April 2010 - it is now Jan 2012, you haven't obviously paid any potential NI Class 2 / 4 - nevermind the Tax...

So surely there will be some sort of fine or payment due?

 

[Fremder]

yes its true the three month rule was abolished, however it was replaced with stricter rules saying you must register on or before the date you start trading.

Hi evocart, that's interesting! Where can I read this on the HMRC site?

Some time ago I read: "You must notify HMRC within 3 months of becoming self-employed."

This information has disappeared from their page, and instead NOW I read on hmrc.gov.uk/sa/register.htm: "Why and when you need to register for Self Assessment - You need to register for Self Assessment before you complete your first tax return." and "The latest you should register is by 5 October after the end of the tax year for which you need a tax return." :|

As I understand this, if we would start working now, we would have to register before 5 October 2013, is this right? (Not that we want to wait longer than necessary - we just would like to try out some alternatives (offering services) before registering.) Many thanks!

 

[Jonathan Power]

You must immediately inform HM customs and Revenue of self employment status..

Death and Taxes.

My advice is not to fall foul of this

 

[Fremder]

You must immediately inform HM customs and Revenue of self employment status..
Death and Taxes.
My advice is not to fall foul of this

Thanks I will follow this advice, but nevertheless I would like
to see WHERE on their website they write about these
"stricter rules saying you must register on or before the date you start trading".
I can't find it!

 

[David Griffiths]

I can't find it!

That's not surprising, because it won't be there.

There is no compulsion to register before you trade, or even by the end of the tax year. Notification of self employment is treated no differently from any other notification of tax liability and the due date is 5 October following the tax year.

Any later and you might get a failure to notify penalty In general, you'll only get one of these if you don't notify in time to pay your tax on the correct date. Somebody starting today for example wouldn't be obliged to notify until October 2013 and wouldn't pay any tax until January 2014.

 

[Fremder]

That's not surprising, because it won't be there.
There is no compulsion to register before you trade, or even by the end of the tax year. Notification of self employment is treated no differently from any other notification of tax liability and the due date is 5 October following the tax year.
Any later and you might get a failure to notify penalty[/URL] In general, you'll only get one of these if you don't notify in time to pay your tax on the correct date. Somebody starting today for example wouldn't be obliged to notify until October 2013 and wouldn't pay any tax until January 2014.

Many thanks for clarifying this!

So "the three month rule was abolished", but it was NOT replaced
with stricter rules as reported above by evocart.