RTI is here! How is it for you?
- Thread starter DanMartin
- Start date
Is the client a new scheme maybe? HMRC was automatically enrolling them into pilot RTI for 2012/13.
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Same here. Seemed logical to me it would be better out of working hours, and more so the later it got, but have tried a number of times through the evening up to nearly 3 a.m. and still the same response as you via Sage. So like you, still unable to move on to the RTI version. Some shuteye now but another day of this and will start doubting it'll be sorted for payday. If you manage to get through, please post again to give me some hope!
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Hi,
As with most on Sage keep getting delayed message or I do get connected but after 100's of automated attempts to submit it says failed.
CAUTION, once (even though Sage said failed) I go an email from HMRC saying submitted OK.
... about an hour later I then got one to say it had failed!
Thankfully I did not carry on & update to RTI.
I think nightmare if I had, could have restored a backup but I guess would have had to installed previous Sage version and updates etc. this could have been hours of work.
What annoyed me is I got in extra staff to allow me concentrate on preparing for RTI and making sure everththing OK. A waste of a whole day.
I have to run a small business (like the majority of people I assume) most of the time & not sure now where I am going to find enough time this week now to make sure all goes well. I need to pay on new RTI by Friday and if there are complications.
Makes me laugh, "be prepared for RTI". I was as much as I could be, did Sage online training (waste of time & money that was) but nothing can compare to actually going live & using the software. It would have been nice if HMRC were prepared. (I wonder about Sage also a bit)
Tried all night and still got delay message, Not even trying to submit like I had a few times, I assume submission was switched off. Funny I did not think computers were 9-5. May be the Valves in the HMRC computer needed to cool down.
Also Telegraph article said businesse with less than 50 empolyees had until October to comply. Surely this is not correct?
As with most on Sage keep getting delayed message or I do get connected but after 100's of automated attempts to submit it says failed.
CAUTION, once (even though Sage said failed) I go an email from HMRC saying submitted OK.
... about an hour later I then got one to say it had failed!
Thankfully I did not carry on & update to RTI.
I think nightmare if I had, could have restored a backup but I guess would have had to installed previous Sage version and updates etc. this could have been hours of work.
What annoyed me is I got in extra staff to allow me concentrate on preparing for RTI and making sure everththing OK. A waste of a whole day.
I have to run a small business (like the majority of people I assume) most of the time & not sure now where I am going to find enough time this week now to make sure all goes well. I need to pay on new RTI by Friday and if there are complications.
Makes me laugh, "be prepared for RTI". I was as much as I could be, did Sage online training (waste of time & money that was) but nothing can compare to actually going live & using the software. It would have been nice if HMRC were prepared. (I wonder about Sage also a bit)
Tried all night and still got delay message, Not even trying to submit like I had a few times, I assume submission was switched off. Funny I did not think computers were 9-5. May be the Valves in the HMRC computer needed to cool down.
Also Telegraph article said businesse with less than 50 empolyees had until October to comply. Surely this is not correct?
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Apparently, P45s can no longer be filed regardless of what year they're for.
One of my clients had an employee who left on Friday 5th April. I tried all day yesterday to submit the P45 via Moneysoft, but kept getting incomprehensible error messages.
Both Moneysoft and HMRC have now confirmed that P45s can't be submitted for ANY tax year. Neither could tell me what to do.
So, I've popped it in the post to HMRC and am hoping for the best and that it doesn't get lost in their postal black hole.
Absolute madness. They've been banging on for months about employers getting prepared. My practice and our clients were prepared, but it seems that as usual, the problems are at HMRC's end.
One of my clients had an employee who left on Friday 5th April. I tried all day yesterday to submit the P45 via Moneysoft, but kept getting incomprehensible error messages.
Both Moneysoft and HMRC have now confirmed that P45s can't be submitted for ANY tax year. Neither could tell me what to do.
So, I've popped it in the post to HMRC and am hoping for the best and that it doesn't get lost in their postal black hole.
Absolute madness. They've been banging on for months about employers getting prepared. My practice and our clients were prepared, but it seems that as usual, the problems are at HMRC's end.
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if you've had a 'successful submission' email, that should be it, providing you weren't doing a test submission. i've had about 15 'failed' emails & 1 'successful'. from past years experience, the 1 'successful' is the important one. if a submission did get through, even if it didn't look like it from your end, this would mean any submission after that would be a failed one. this is my scenario too & i've gone ahead & updated basic tools to the RTI version, all data transferred from old version & working ok (as far as i can see, 1st payroll run is tomorrow). with external software this may not be the same so please check.
however, i will be calling HMRC before 19th May deadline just to be on the safe side as i remember a few people last year posting that they'd had late filing penalties when they were adamant they had filed on time.
i said this earlier & the more i've read the more i think it's correct, i think the problem is with the HMRC acknowledgement system. if that isn't in place to bounce back instantly & tell your software that a submission has got through, then we have the issues we've got now. also, at no point in any of the submissions that i tried did it look like any connection whatsoever had been made, not even a hint that i had made a successful submission. HMRC's inadequate & confusing systems all over.
October full compliance date has been covered in this thread too, that is a concession for companies who pay weekly but run their payroll monthly. only a tiny % will meet this criteria &, even if they do, they will still have to file monthly returns via the RTI system, not just wait until October to start reporting. incorrect press coverage & advice i've seen on other forums could give people a problem if they think they can just 'opt out' of RTI until October.
however, i will be calling HMRC before 19th May deadline just to be on the safe side as i remember a few people last year posting that they'd had late filing penalties when they were adamant they had filed on time.
i said this earlier & the more i've read the more i think it's correct, i think the problem is with the HMRC acknowledgement system. if that isn't in place to bounce back instantly & tell your software that a submission has got through, then we have the issues we've got now. also, at no point in any of the submissions that i tried did it look like any connection whatsoever had been made, not even a hint that i had made a successful submission. HMRC's inadequate & confusing systems all over.
October full compliance date has been covered in this thread too, that is a concession for companies who pay weekly but run their payroll monthly. only a tiny % will meet this criteria &, even if they do, they will still have to file monthly returns via the RTI system, not just wait until October to start reporting. incorrect press coverage & advice i've seen on other forums could give people a problem if they think they can just 'opt out' of RTI until October.
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Sage phone queue times 107 minutes!
I don't think so.
After failing all day yesterday,
17:35 I get HMRC successfully submitted although Sage always said it failed
18:40 HMRC unsucessful Rejected due to Data Error
Sure nothing wrong with my data, Sage should pick up on that anyway.
Never had this problem over the many years I have done it.
Now Sage fails, saying already submitted.
What a joke.
I don't think so.
After failing all day yesterday,
17:35 I get HMRC successfully submitted although Sage always said it failed
18:40 HMRC unsucessful Rejected due to Data Error
Sure nothing wrong with my data, Sage should pick up on that anyway.
Never had this problem over the many years I have done it.
Now Sage fails, saying already submitted.
What a joke.
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this is the text from all of my unsuccessful emails -
"The submission for reference xxxxxx was received on 08-04-2013. Unfortunately it could not be accepted as it failed Inland Revenue data checks."
i think it's going to be a standard message, but check yours if it says anything different.
i'm happy to leave this now & just phone HMRC before 19th May to confirm.
I can't comment on the position with Sage & if you can update to RTI software as i don't use them. does Sage have an online help forum at all? can you google if anyone has checked the position with sage & perhaps posted elsewhere?
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K
keithr
Thanks, I think you are correct. I never received a "successful" response from the Basic PAYE tools but one presumably did get through. I have printed out the "successful" confirmation email as proof if they try to penalise me for not submitting it in time!
Keith
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from your previous post, basic tools updated to 'you've already filed a year end return', so in effect, this is your acknowledgement. mine only did this much later on yesterday, until that point, it was the original screens pending year end submission.
have you downloaded to the new software & imported your employer/employee data ok now? i think that's another sign that your return has gone through ok.
what a palaver!
could well do without this extra stress at the moment. just hope our 1st wages run goes ok tomorrow on the new software...
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Yay! Finally a successful submission via Sage (Instant Payroll), at my first try this morning at about 9.45.
Good luck to others: hope you make it too.
Quite. Well, except no extra staff for us - it's me or nothing But yes, the waste of a day (and night!); and I also wanted the time to prepare well once I could load the new RTI software. Probably what every small business was hoping for, particularly with weekly-paid staff.
It's for those businesses (with less than 50) who pay weekly or more frequently but have only been processing their payroll monthly, either themselves or through agents. This isn't possible under RTI: if you pay weekly (or whenever or how often you pay) you must report in real time; but HMRC "recognised" late in the day -- good of them! -- that it may take these firms longer to adapt from past practice to real-time reporting... so they have until October to sort themselves out basically.
They must still start RTI now along with everyone else, but if they've only been processing monthly in the past for staff who've actually been paid more frequently than that, they now have this concession that they are allowed to submit an FPS monthly under RTI (no later than the end of the tax month on 5th), but only until October, when they must join the rest of us reporting every payment in real time.
It's been reported that many >50 businesses have completely misunderstood this to believe they don't have to begin RTI now. Wrong: they do.
All set out here in detail (sorry, still can't post clickable links so you'll need to tweak):
hmrc.gov.uk / news / relax-small-business.htm
Good luck to others: hope you make it too.
Quite. Well, except no extra staff for us - it's me or nothing
But yes, the waste of a day (and night!); and I also wanted the time to prepare well once I could load the new RTI software. Probably what every small business was hoping for, particularly with weekly-paid staff.Yup, agree 100% with the sentiments. Didn't take up any of the training as the cost was too much for us (only a sole tradership with a couple of employees, but the preparation, process and anxiety about it is the same). I also started wondering last night if they'd switched off! - wouldn't surprise me. Or my other thought was some huge companies with 1000s of employees maybe having "got through" late in the day and just left it to plough on and submit, tying it up while they b***d off home and leaving no capacity for us!
No... or rather, yes and no. A relaxation for businesses with less than 50 employees was announced in March, but not in the need for RTI/FPS reporting per se. I've read several pieces saying it's been misconstrued by many who now believe they don't have to begin RTI at all till October, which is quite wrong.
It's for those businesses (with less than 50) who pay weekly or more frequently but have only been processing their payroll monthly, either themselves or through agents. This isn't possible under RTI: if you pay weekly (or whenever or how often you pay) you must report in real time; but HMRC "recognised" late in the day -- good of them! -- that it may take these firms longer to adapt from past practice to real-time reporting... so they have until October to sort themselves out basically.
They must still start RTI now along with everyone else, but if they've only been processing monthly in the past for staff who've actually been paid more frequently than that, they now have this concession that they are allowed to submit an FPS monthly under RTI (no later than the end of the tax month on 5th), but only until October, when they must join the rest of us reporting every payment in real time.
It's been reported that many >50 businesses have completely misunderstood this to believe they don't have to begin RTI now. Wrong: they do.
All set out here in detail (sorry, still can't post clickable links so you'll need to tweak):
hmrc.gov.uk / news / relax-small-business.htm
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Many thanks Anonymouse72,
Mine was the same basic error message as you say, so perhaps is did go through and it is just rejecting any further attempts. You have put my mind a rest a little.
Sage have a forum but don't seem to be able to post & no one uses but only look briefly the other day. You can never get support when you need it.
Problem is with Sage Instant, whilst I think you can install a separate New install, it is never a good idea & can lead to problems with Data, so you really need to install over your existing which requires proper year end, work out pay increases etc, submission & update all before your first payroll of the new year. This always seemed crazy to me and puts a lot of pressure on. You can't wait till 19th may.
However before RTI you could pay an estimate for a few weeks and not process any payroll to make sure all OK then balance out later on. This of course now can't be done because RTI won't wait.
If I update & submission has not gone through I hate to think how an earth I would get Sage to submit last years data. I guess a good days work at least. Sage never make this sort of thing easy.
Mine was the same basic error message as you say, so perhaps is did go through and it is just rejecting any further attempts. You have put my mind a rest a little.
Sage have a forum but don't seem to be able to post & no one uses but only look briefly the other day. You can never get support when you need it.
Problem is with Sage Instant, whilst I think you can install a separate New install, it is never a good idea & can lead to problems with Data, so you really need to install over your existing which requires proper year end, work out pay increases etc, submission & update all before your first payroll of the new year. This always seemed crazy to me and puts a lot of pressure on. You can't wait till 19th may.
However before RTI you could pay an estimate for a few weeks and not process any payroll to make sure all OK then balance out later on. This of course now can't be done because RTI won't wait.
If I update & submission has not gone through I hate to think how an earth I would get Sage to submit last years data. I guess a good days work at least. Sage never make this sort of thing easy.
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Seems another good reason to avoid Sage. We use Moneysoft which has been brilliant over the past couple of weeks as it's allowed us to file P35's ahead of the year end for clients where we know there would be no last minute changes, so over half our P35's were filed before last weeks shutdown. Moneysoft also allows you to create a new tax year (and transfers over all standing data etc) without the old having been fully closed down and filed, so again, no problems in doing this week's payrolls even where the year end hasn't been completed. We've also avoided the multiple attempts issue as Moneysoft just reports a "no response yet" message so you can just sit back and wait rather than having to keep trying resubmissions. Given the cost of Sage and the long delays on their helplines etc., perhaps it's time to give other software a chance. We've been happy with Moneysoft for years and there's also lots of praise for 12Pay from other users of this and other forums, so it's not as if there aren't good alternatives.
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Bignose, I wouldn't be tempted down the route of trying a new install and trying to bypass the year-end submission, however desperate. Not that I've done it or tried it, but once familiar with Instant Payroll (which, from your last post, I think you also use?) and knowing the process from many previous year-ends, I just think it would be horrendous to skip the submission step by that route and try to recover later.
I see you had a data error this time, luckily something I've never had so far (touch wood!) Do you have the year-end guide? -- it says on p51 there's should be a link in that failure notice to click and find out what was wrong from the log?
As for ringing Sage, I did that last evening and over a half-hour period their website was showing call waiting times of anything from 60 to nearly 80 mins, but when I actually rang it was only around 25 which wasn't too bad. But that was around 6-ish after "normal" working hours and they were probably getting a bit quieter. I'm sure earlier in the day it could well have been a much longer wait.
A day or two ago I joined the only Sage forum found -- maybe the same one you saw -- but it's nothing to do with Sage themselves: just set up by and for Sage users. It didn't seem very "lively" on the RTI front, and in the end I didn't bother asking anything.
Having finally been able to submit my online return earlier, I'm now about to start installing the new RTI version, so we'll see how that goes :|
Good luck!
I see you had a data error this time, luckily something I've never had so far (touch wood!) Do you have the year-end guide? -- it says on p51 there's should be a link in that failure notice to click and find out what was wrong from the log?
As for ringing Sage, I did that last evening and over a half-hour period their website was showing call waiting times of anything from 60 to nearly 80 mins, but when I actually rang it was only around 25 which wasn't too bad. But that was around 6-ish after "normal" working hours and they were probably getting a bit quieter. I'm sure earlier in the day it could well have been a much longer wait.
A day or two ago I joined the only Sage forum found -- maybe the same one you saw -- but it's nothing to do with Sage themselves: just set up by and for Sage users. It didn't seem very "lively" on the RTI front, and in the end I didn't bother asking anything.
Having finally been able to submit my online return earlier, I'm now about to start installing the new RTI version, so we'll see how that goes :|
Good luck!
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if you really need to know before you update your software, i'd just give HMRC a call to check they have a submission filed. perhaps try around 2pm as this can be a quieter time for most call centres.
good luck
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K
keithr
from your previous post, basic tools updated to 'you've already filed a year end return', so in effect, this is your acknowledgement. mine only did this much later on yesterday, until that point, it was the original screens pending year end submission.
have you downloaded to the new software & imported your employer/employee data ok now? i think that's another sign that your return has gone through ok.
what a palaver!
I must admit I didn't see an error ""you have already filed an original return" as a comforting message that one of the earlier attempts was successful when they all came up with error messages when I tried to submit it!
I already moved to RTI while still failing to submit the end of year. The problem is you have to submit RTI when you make the payment so you cannot wait a few days while you try to submit the end of year return through the old software!
But the new software won't let you import the ZIP from the old unless it is successful - catch 22. So, I did it by importing the company database not the ZIP file.
Keith
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Year end finally filed yesterday, updated to new rti version & data transferred ok. Spent a little time on it today in prep for 1st wages run tomorrow. From how simple it was to use, i think they've made it far more complicated now. Not all the info i want is in one place, as it was on the p11, you have to go hunting for various figures under different headings & then choose further options. Bit of a mess from what i can see, but i'm sure i'll get used to it!
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Hi,
Sage Instant User,
After all messing about last two days and confirmed/unconfirmed PYE submission HMRC confirmed over the phone that it seems to have been submitted OK, despite Sage still thinking not.
Anyway, updated to latest Sage and starting to RTI.
I think I really should know this, I had read so much & even did the Sage online course but my head is now spinning & seem to be stuck at very first hurdle.
If anyone can advise.
I guess would apply to any software.
Employee details. These are all existing staff I have already had & were included on the Year End. All the normal details have been carried over.
Sage however has defaulted & ticked New Starter Box & ticked the P45 box for all my employees.
If I untick New Starter, it then default ticks FPS Starter. "If you have been advise by HMRC to resubmit...."
I know this is for the preparation & first submission but surely it should all be automatically.
Do I need to mark them as if starters. I really would have thought not.
If not starter, do I need to tell it this is the first submission with FPS starter?
If it had not defaulted to & ticked these boxes I would not have given it a second thought.
I went over the course again & no mention of what you should actually expect to put, Sage Answers don't seem to tell you what to put but there www is going so slow it take 30 seconds to load 1 page. The help advise on the page is no use.
I xxxing hate sage, although this is probably me this time.
If I had not spent the last two days trying to get YE submitted I think I would be much clearer in my thinking, but frustration & anger has rather clouded my thoughts.
Thanks I/A
Sage Instant User,
After all messing about last two days and confirmed/unconfirmed PYE submission HMRC confirmed over the phone that it seems to have been submitted OK, despite Sage still thinking not.
Anyway, updated to latest Sage and starting to RTI.
I think I really should know this, I had read so much & even did the Sage online course but my head is now spinning & seem to be stuck at very first hurdle.
If anyone can advise.
I guess would apply to any software.
Employee details. These are all existing staff I have already had & were included on the Year End. All the normal details have been carried over.
Sage however has defaulted & ticked New Starter Box & ticked the P45 box for all my employees.
If I untick New Starter, it then default ticks FPS Starter. "If you have been advise by HMRC to resubmit...."
I know this is for the preparation & first submission but surely it should all be automatically.
Do I need to mark them as if starters. I really would have thought not.
If not starter, do I need to tell it this is the first submission with FPS starter?
If it had not defaulted to & ticked these boxes I would not have given it a second thought.
I went over the course again & no mention of what you should actually expect to put, Sage Answers don't seem to tell you what to put but there www is going so slow it take 30 seconds to load 1 page. The help advise on the page is no use.
I xxxing hate sage, although this is probably me this time.
If I had not spent the last two days trying to get YE submitted I think I would be much clearer in my thinking, but frustration & anger has rather clouded my thoughts.
Thanks I/A
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Further to above, while I am waiting to get through to Sage
Not sure what payment type to use, I use internet banking but always left it as "cheque" for Sage purposes.
There is no choice for normal payments via Internet Banking,
Bacs
Direct Bac's
Cash
Cheque
Sage answers seem to make a point that BACS is not internet banking, they don't bother to say what Internet banking comes under (As with most of the help from sage, useless unless you follow there standard business profile.
Not sure if more important to be accurate now.
Not sure what payment type to use, I use internet banking but always left it as "cheque" for Sage purposes.
There is no choice for normal payments via Internet Banking,
Bacs
Direct Bac's
Cash
Cheque
Sage answers seem to make a point that BACS is not internet banking, they don't bother to say what Internet banking comes under (As with most of the help from sage, useless unless you follow there standard business profile.
Not sure if more important to be accurate now.
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sorry can't help on Sage, sounds an even bigger muddle than Basic Tools! hope you can get it sorted, with your sanity still in tact
i've just completed our first wages & reported with the new RTI software, all gone through ok. tried to familiarise myself with what i need to do at month end & think i've fried my brain!
i'm struggling getting to grips with all the new terminology that's now quoted on Tools & just keep getting myself in a muddle & forgetting where the info i want is now hidden. absolutely nothing is one click & enter like it just to be, everything seems hidden under different headings then buried under different tabs.
for month end, employer payment summary, the software says you need to enter details on the form for recoverable amounts even if it's zero. on the user guide it just states if no recoverable amounts, got to the next step & ignore that section!
confused? you soon will be...
i've just completed our first wages & reported with the new RTI software, all gone through ok. tried to familiarise myself with what i need to do at month end & think i've fried my brain!
i'm struggling getting to grips with all the new terminology that's now quoted on Tools & just keep getting myself in a muddle & forgetting where the info i want is now hidden. absolutely nothing is one click & enter like it just to be, everything seems hidden under different headings then buried under different tabs.
for month end, employer payment summary, the software says you need to enter details on the form for recoverable amounts even if it's zero. on the user guide it just states if no recoverable amounts, got to the next step & ignore that section!
confused? you soon will be...
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Hi,
Just got off CHAT with sage, bit quicker than phoning, perhaps 20 minutes & anything better than listening to repeated message or awful music. Very patient & helpful (One positive for Sage)
For Sage Instant.
Starter should not have been ticked & FPS Starter should not be ticked.
As I suspected but was concerned as Sage had defaulted to this. Support said I would have to restore previous copy & data to find out why, I don't think so! & think more likely a bug or weird way sage do stuff that something wrong with my data.
Also Advised BACS (although sure read on Sage www somewhere that internet banking was not considered BAC's in the true sense of the meaning) but think better than "Cheque" or cash!
Anyway now to try and get on with it for real.
Just got off CHAT with sage, bit quicker than phoning, perhaps 20 minutes & anything better than listening to repeated message or awful music. Very patient & helpful (One positive for Sage)
For Sage Instant.
Starter should not have been ticked & FPS Starter should not be ticked.
As I suspected but was concerned as Sage had defaulted to this. Support said I would have to restore previous copy & data to find out why, I don't think so! & think more likely a bug or weird way sage do stuff that something wrong with my data.
Also Advised BACS (although sure read on Sage www somewhere that internet banking was not considered BAC's in the true sense of the meaning) but think better than "Cheque" or cash!
Anyway now to try and get on with it for real.
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Hi Bignose
Sorry, only just logged in to see your posts today. Sounds like you have the answers now anyway, but if anyone else is looking for the same thing here's my similar experience of plodding through...
I also had the Starter/P45 box pre-ticked after upgrading and puzzled about it, but not enough to ring Sage (again! -- I'd already been on to them once yesterday and waited an hour).
I came to the same conclusion as you and treated it as a software anomaly. After trying to take it out and finding the 'FPS Starter' then auto-ticked, I left it where it was -- must admit I didn't think of seeing if I could untick both boxes together! Didn't seem to affect anything else later (and didn't prevent me paying anyone), but in view of what you've said here maybe I'll query it with Sage before next week's FPS.
If I go into Instant as if I was now processing next week, I see it's still ticked in the weekly guy's case (and for the monthly-paid employee who won't be paid till the end of the month, who's actually me), and I wonder if it indicates something else: the difference (for RTI) between an employee who's already on the books and one who's an 'FPS Starter', i.e. never been reported in the normal through-the-year processing before, but only at the year end?
It doesn't apply to us so can't be sure, but maybe it's to do with employees who were previously only reported at year end because they don't earn enough to pay any tax/NIC through the year, but now have to be brought into RTI and reported in real time along with everyone else, hence they're an 'FPS Starter'? I don't know but it's just a thought.
As for the BACS thing, that was something I'd rung Sage about yesterday as I was in the same boat. Always paid by internet banking since it was first introduced, and for the last few years that's meant same-day Faster Payments into the employees' accounts (don't know about your firm, but we're able to use the same "normal" online banking service which anyone can use, and therefore Faster Payments, as the business is a sole tradership allowed to do so. A limited company or one with a turnover above the bank's qualifying turnover threshold couldn't do this.
I'd also had the 'Cheque' option ticked in Sage Instant as it avoided entering employees' bank details into the software (which with entering 'BACS' is unavoidable). I'm sure millions of workers have their bank details stored in employers' payrolls, but I didn't want it there if it didn't have to be -- just somewhere else it could be accessed from if hacked or whatever.
So like you I asked Sage about what to put in this field for RTI where everything has to be as it really is. 'Cheque' (or 'Cash') is inaccurate, but internet banking/Faster Payments is not 'BACS' either. I knew it wasn't 'Direct BACS' which is for schemes where you need a hash reference.
I was also told the choice had to be 'BACS' as the other three options were even more wrong. Employees' bank details then had to be added to go any further, even though I don't use the e-banking facility from within Sage and they don't serve any useful purpose in our case. Presumably they may now be available to HMRC in some way when we send FPS? Sage, as usual whenever I've rarely had to ring them, were very good -- their help people are always excellent and I never have a grouse with them. The only bugbear is the waiting time to get through, as I only ever seem to have questions at their very busiest times, like this.
After getting all through that, altering tax codes for the new tax year and so on, I sent the EAS (required by Sage Instant, even though it's not a requirement of HMRC/HTI for a business of our small size). No problem with that and it went through straight away.
Then the weekly wages as normal and send the FPS: also went immediately. This part is straightforward, and week to week it's not going to be onerous. OK, another thing to remember and it'll take a little longer, and I'll have to take care not to make any silly processing mistakes with calculating/entering overtime (has happened once or twice in the past if I've been rushing!) so the pay figure's accurate before sending the FPS, but not difficult and should be fine once into the routine.
The only other change made beforehand was altering the pay-date. The weekly guy's paid on a Friday and always has been, but for some age-old reason which now escapes me his pay-date was set to Thursdays. I can always process earlier if I want to, and in practice generally do, but Thursday's not accurate for RTI, where the pay-date must match the day an employee receives wages in his account, so before processing this week's pay I amended it. No problem: still in Week 1 and it'll now continue as Friday every week... well, till Christmas anyway!
Otherwise it's not too much more than clicking an extra button at the end of what we've always done. Must remember also to be on the ball with any data changes such as leavers/starters or something "different" like statutory payments and so on; but fortunately with only 2 employees that's uncommon.
How are you getting on now Bignose? Come through OK at the other side?
Sorry, only just logged in to see your posts today. Sounds like you have the answers now anyway, but if anyone else is looking for the same thing here's my similar experience of plodding through...
I also had the Starter/P45 box pre-ticked after upgrading and puzzled about it, but not enough to ring Sage (again! -- I'd already been on to them once yesterday and waited an hour).
I came to the same conclusion as you and treated it as a software anomaly. After trying to take it out and finding the 'FPS Starter' then auto-ticked, I left it where it was -- must admit I didn't think of seeing if I could untick both boxes together! Didn't seem to affect anything else later (and didn't prevent me paying anyone), but in view of what you've said here maybe I'll query it with Sage before next week's FPS.
If I go into Instant as if I was now processing next week, I see it's still ticked in the weekly guy's case (and for the monthly-paid employee who won't be paid till the end of the month, who's actually me), and I wonder if it indicates something else: the difference (for RTI) between an employee who's already on the books and one who's an 'FPS Starter', i.e. never been reported in the normal through-the-year processing before, but only at the year end?
It doesn't apply to us so can't be sure, but maybe it's to do with employees who were previously only reported at year end because they don't earn enough to pay any tax/NIC through the year, but now have to be brought into RTI and reported in real time along with everyone else, hence they're an 'FPS Starter'? I don't know but it's just a thought.
As for the BACS thing, that was something I'd rung Sage about yesterday as I was in the same boat. Always paid by internet banking since it was first introduced, and for the last few years that's meant same-day Faster Payments into the employees' accounts (don't know about your firm, but we're able to use the same "normal" online banking service which anyone can use, and therefore Faster Payments, as the business is a sole tradership allowed to do so. A limited company or one with a turnover above the bank's qualifying turnover threshold couldn't do this.
I'd also had the 'Cheque' option ticked in Sage Instant as it avoided entering employees' bank details into the software (which with entering 'BACS' is unavoidable). I'm sure millions of workers have their bank details stored in employers' payrolls, but I didn't want it there if it didn't have to be -- just somewhere else it could be accessed from if hacked or whatever.
So like you I asked Sage about what to put in this field for RTI where everything has to be as it really is. 'Cheque' (or 'Cash') is inaccurate, but internet banking/Faster Payments is not 'BACS' either. I knew it wasn't 'Direct BACS' which is for schemes where you need a hash reference.
I was also told the choice had to be 'BACS' as the other three options were even more wrong. Employees' bank details then had to be added to go any further, even though I don't use the e-banking facility from within Sage and they don't serve any useful purpose in our case. Presumably they may now be available to HMRC in some way when we send FPS? Sage, as usual whenever I've rarely had to ring them, were very good -- their help people are always excellent and I never have a grouse with them. The only bugbear is the waiting time to get through, as I only ever seem to have questions at their very busiest times, like this.
After getting all through that, altering tax codes for the new tax year and so on, I sent the EAS (required by Sage Instant, even though it's not a requirement of HMRC/HTI for a business of our small size). No problem with that and it went through straight away.
Then the weekly wages as normal and send the FPS: also went immediately. This part is straightforward, and week to week it's not going to be onerous. OK, another thing to remember and it'll take a little longer, and I'll have to take care not to make any silly processing mistakes with calculating/entering overtime (has happened once or twice in the past if I've been rushing!) so the pay figure's accurate before sending the FPS, but not difficult and should be fine once into the routine.
The only other change made beforehand was altering the pay-date. The weekly guy's paid on a Friday and always has been, but for some age-old reason which now escapes me his pay-date was set to Thursdays. I can always process earlier if I want to, and in practice generally do, but Thursday's not accurate for RTI, where the pay-date must match the day an employee receives wages in his account, so before processing this week's pay I amended it. No problem: still in Week 1 and it'll now continue as Friday every week... well, till Christmas anyway!
Otherwise it's not too much more than clicking an extra button at the end of what we've always done. Must remember also to be on the ball with any data changes such as leavers/starters or something "different" like statutory payments and so on; but fortunately with only 2 employees that's uncommon.
How are you getting on now Bignose? Come through OK at the other side?
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Thanks nw51,
Nice to know someone went through almost the exact same experience.(not nice for you of course)
It Is very frustrating (understatement) that the ONLY things that I could not work out for myself are the very things that are not anywhere to be seen on sage help or their online training.
1) The default ticked boxes for Starter & FPS Starter (not just me as you had the same query). Must be a Sage anomaly or bug & not my data.
2) The BACS question, why on earth do they not make that clear,
Sage 29347 & others pages on their www quote:-
"If you pay your employees directly into their bank accounts via the BACS system (BACS is not the same as internet banking) using your own Service User Number (SUN) you must include the RTI (Real Time Information) cross-reference (sometimes called a 'hash') field.
"(BACS is not the same as internet banking)" !!!!!!
Simple, obvious, fundamental question and no clear advise on what to put.
3) Irregular casual wages. There was advise to use band D, but of course no option to use band D you have to enter 0.00 in pay. I think there was stuff on this somewhere but took some finding.
Why not have a few simple example www pages explaining the options clearly, they have a mass of the bleedin obvious but nothing specific or useful.
Anyway...
EAS Seemed to go OK
And have done 1st FPS today with tomorrow, Friday process date.
Looks quite straightforward from now on but will see.
Few things that I wondered about, why are HMRC so fanatical about date actually paid, I can understand you don't want it weeks apart (although still can't see a real problem with that) Your accounts must balance amount paid with actual bank account?
Perhaps mainly for the BACS system?
Is it fine to FPS a number of days before payment date as long as the process date in correct?
Again you must not Pay before FPS, not quite sure why such a sin.
In practice don't think much of a problem but I always use to process & actually Pay on a Thursday for official Day Friday.
Mostly because Thursday afternoon quiet at work and allowed for any banking cock-ups or internet being down.
Pretty reliable internet but certainly not uncommon to loose it for a day or two & if that happened on a Friday, staff don't have any money for week-end & I suspect could experience the wrath of the HMRC (I know they are not likely to be that officious)
This make me think, I bet there are a lot of companies that have very unreliable internet.
There was a good FAQ on it somewhere & will read when I get my sanity back but do wonder how well it will work for advance payment.
When I go on holiday for e.g. 2 weeks, I am the only one who can do this & pay via bank. I assume to use the advance pay check box.
Banking "Next Day" advance date, is not an exact science, takes up to 2 days but can do in 1, so I say to reach account next Friday, Apparantley it might get there Thursday instead? Seems odd banks don't seem to allow Faster Payment on an advance date.
Can't have everything, just amazed that it has taken so long for Bank to get there act together to get faster payment. I know they use to get a little bit of interest on our money whilst in transit or am I just being synical.
I wonder how this would have worked a little while ago, faster payments have only really just become widespread & reliable.
On a separate issue has anyone ever come across the error "The Fore Contains Invalid Character, they have been removed" when submitting. It has always done if for me for many years & never caused a problem but as only once a year then I ignored, now with RTI it is likely to annoy me.
I have checked & re-typed names & staff details. Only have 4 employees.
I know this is all a bit of a moan but feel better for it.
Nice to know someone went through almost the exact same experience.(not nice for you of course)
It Is very frustrating (understatement) that the ONLY things that I could not work out for myself are the very things that are not anywhere to be seen on sage help or their online training.
1) The default ticked boxes for Starter & FPS Starter (not just me as you had the same query). Must be a Sage anomaly or bug & not my data.
2) The BACS question, why on earth do they not make that clear,
Sage 29347 & others pages on their www quote:-
"If you pay your employees directly into their bank accounts via the BACS system (BACS is not the same as internet banking) using your own Service User Number (SUN) you must include the RTI (Real Time Information) cross-reference (sometimes called a 'hash') field.
"(BACS is not the same as internet banking)" !!!!!!
Simple, obvious, fundamental question and no clear advise on what to put.
3) Irregular casual wages. There was advise to use band D, but of course no option to use band D you have to enter 0.00 in pay. I think there was stuff on this somewhere but took some finding.
Why not have a few simple example www pages explaining the options clearly, they have a mass of the bleedin obvious but nothing specific or useful.
Anyway...
EAS Seemed to go OK
And have done 1st FPS today with tomorrow, Friday process date.
Looks quite straightforward from now on but will see.
Few things that I wondered about, why are HMRC so fanatical about date actually paid, I can understand you don't want it weeks apart (although still can't see a real problem with that) Your accounts must balance amount paid with actual bank account?
Perhaps mainly for the BACS system?
Is it fine to FPS a number of days before payment date as long as the process date in correct?
Again you must not Pay before FPS, not quite sure why such a sin.
In practice don't think much of a problem but I always use to process & actually Pay on a Thursday for official Day Friday.
Mostly because Thursday afternoon quiet at work and allowed for any banking cock-ups or internet being down.
Pretty reliable internet but certainly not uncommon to loose it for a day or two & if that happened on a Friday, staff don't have any money for week-end & I suspect could experience the wrath of the HMRC (I know they are not likely to be that officious)
This make me think, I bet there are a lot of companies that have very unreliable internet.
There was a good FAQ on it somewhere & will read when I get my sanity back but do wonder how well it will work for advance payment.
When I go on holiday for e.g. 2 weeks, I am the only one who can do this & pay via bank. I assume to use the advance pay check box.
Banking "Next Day" advance date, is not an exact science, takes up to 2 days but can do in 1, so I say to reach account next Friday, Apparantley it might get there Thursday instead? Seems odd banks don't seem to allow Faster Payment on an advance date.
Can't have everything, just amazed that it has taken so long for Bank to get there act together to get faster payment. I know they use to get a little bit of interest on our money whilst in transit or am I just being synical.
I wonder how this would have worked a little while ago, faster payments have only really just become widespread & reliable.
On a separate issue has anyone ever come across the error "The Fore Contains Invalid Character, they have been removed" when submitting. It has always done if for me for many years & never caused a problem but as only once a year then I ignored, now with RTI it is likely to annoy me.
I have checked & re-typed names & staff details. Only have 4 employees.
I know this is all a bit of a moan but feel better for it.
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0
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P
PuddlePayroll
Correct that P45's or p46's cannot be submitted for a previous year.
If the employee is a leaver HMRC will pick this up from the leave date entered on the p14 when you file year end.
If they are a new starter HMRC will find out about them on your EAS or FPS
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Hands up, everyone in the industry who thinks that RTI returns are going to provide useful "Hours Worked" figures for UB purposes?
Exactly how much care is the average employer/accountant/bureau going to put into guessing "normal weekly working hours", when that has no effect on anything at their end and error has no consequence? It would be impossible in 99% of case to prove that the employer's guess at "normal weekly working hours" was unreasonable at the time when the guess was made even if it turns out to be wrong.
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Can't remember off the top of my head but if an employer has quoted an hourly wage on the pay run instead of a set salary, would the software automatically pick it up or would it still need banding anyway?
As a side note, I've had zero RTI issues so far. Did my first one on the 6th at about 11am and it's all gone perfectly to date.
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It depends how the software has been setup. 12Pay has an "Actual" setting for RTI hours which files the banding based on actual hours worked each week, but I'm not sure if we're even supposed to offer a facility like that, because HMRC explicitly uses the words "Normal weekly working hours" not "Actual wwh" when describing the item.
99% of submissions have gone perfectly, but the other 1% (just guessing, don't know the actual figures) are still a headache when you've got c, 15,000 employers using the software.
What we're discovering is the ways that people use our software that we hadn't thought of. eg Making payments to employees with a code designated for pension contributions didn't matter a bit before RTI, but is a compliance failure when you file an RTI message with a negative pension deduction on it.
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Still struggling with PAYE Tools RTI version. It's not submitting my first week's pay details. Have tried a collective submission as well as a couple of individuals. Nothing.
I went to my firewall setting to check rti.exe is a trusted program, but I changed the setting to prompt and ask if it can go onto the Net when it tries. Nothing. So it's not even trying to connect to the HMRC gateway. Just sits there telling me it's initialising.
Can't phone HMRC. Every attempt is met with 'We're very busy and can't take your call'. I had an email back but they won't respond directly due to security reasons.
So shall I just guess the tax? That's what I had to do last week.
I went to my firewall setting to check rti.exe is a trusted program, but I changed the setting to prompt and ask if it can go onto the Net when it tries. Nothing. So it's not even trying to connect to the HMRC gateway. Just sits there telling me it's initialising.
Can't phone HMRC. Every attempt is met with 'We're very busy and can't take your call'. I had an email back but they won't respond directly due to security reasons.
So shall I just guess the tax? That's what I had to do last week.
Upvote
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Have you tried un-install & download it again? (Sorry, don't know correct terminology, remove & re-install). You've downloaded the correct version for your pc? Did the employee/employer data transfer across ok? Any known issues reported on the hmrc info page?
Sorry for all the questions!
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