RTI is here! How is it for you?
- Thread starter DanMartin
- Start date
Big headache for small accountants whose burden changes dramatically to keep filing payrolls ahead of payments to clients' staff - some of them will inevitably end up paying late filing penalties for their clients or risk losing them. Trouble is payroll preparation cannot go up at all or enough to compensate for the extra work in a small business environment and in recessionary times. So, it seems that there is a cost displacement from HMRC to agents, which makes you wonder whether that was not the main reason for bringing these changes along. Of course as with all changes there are opportunities, which personally can mainly be in the areas of improving efficiency.
The other thing of course is that there is still considerable ambiguity in some areas e.g directors salaries where the account is overdrawn and it makes sense to have an annual pay period at the beginning of the year, coupled with the fact too many popular payroll software don't allow for annual salary. These are the issues identified by us and other accountants may have concern about others.
The other thing of course is that there is still considerable ambiguity in some areas e.g directors salaries where the account is overdrawn and it makes sense to have an annual pay period at the beginning of the year, coupled with the fact too many popular payroll software don't allow for annual salary. These are the issues identified by us and other accountants may have concern about others.
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The HMRC systems were down for the last couple of days for their annual updates. They are back up and running this morning.
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I have just been online. Our account page displays no information available either because account is inactive or because it has been activated only very recently. It also says that if neither of these is true, to call the helpline.
Called the helpline, as neither is true, and after the standard 25 minute wait they said they could only offer general advice as their computers are down till Monday.:redface:
Oh well!
Called the helpline, as neither is true, and after the standard 25 minute wait they said they could only offer general advice as their computers are down till Monday.:redface:
Oh well!
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They may in theory be up by Sage is blocking all access as they say t hey have had no response
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i'm in the same boat as Kulture. i use basic tools & although the HMRC site said that they've been upgrading, it also said you would still be able to file year end returns, but there would just be a delay receiving your submission confirmation.
i kept getting 'failed, gateway busy' all yesterday so i rang HMRC to check & was told 'no, you can't file online at the moment, try again after 6am Saturday" !
been trying for the last hour & it's still the same - busy.
our wages are weekly, i can't finish year end so i can't download the new basic tools for RTI for next weeks wages. i'll be looking like this if it doesn't go through within the next day or so...
also, as an added bonus, i expect submission to fail as basic tools states don't start year end if you can't complete online submission. if you exit before submitting, expect errors. deep joy!
i kept getting 'failed, gateway busy' all yesterday so i rang HMRC to check & was told 'no, you can't file online at the moment, try again after 6am Saturday" !
been trying for the last hour & it's still the same - busy.
our wages are weekly, i can't finish year end so i can't download the new basic tools for RTI for next weeks wages. i'll be looking like this
if it doesn't go through within the next day or so...also, as an added bonus, i expect submission to fail as basic tools states don't start year end if you can't complete online submission. if you exit before submitting, expect errors. deep joy!
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Partially up and running. RTI messages seem to work. P35/P14 vanish into the "we're going to take several days processing these" hole that HMRC delights in at this time of year.
It wasn't up and running at 6am Saturday for RTI as had been suggested. Our first notification of a successful RTI filing was at 4:30pm Saturday.
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The Press, including the DT continues to report that there is a concession for small employers until October. Evidently they don't bother to talk to a non-HMRC professional before writing their articles.
The actual concession is tiny and irrelevant to 99.9% of small businesses. Not even worth mentioning, yet we keep finding of people who've read about it and think that they don't have to file yet.
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have checked info on HMRC website today for basic tools users:
now -
I already use Basic PAYE Tools and will start reporting in real time from 6 April 2013. I plan to carry on using basic tools.
i will need to download -
The latest updated version for 2012-13 then use this to complete and send my 2012-13 Employer Annual Return.
Once that's complete (but not before), I will download the RTI version of Basic PAYE Tools for 2013-14
so, i updated to the latest version a few weeks ago & have run year end but am unable to submit online as 'gateway busy'. from the last line above, i understand that i cannot download the new basic tools with RTI as year end hasn't been submitted. correct? so how do i do next weeks wages?? hopefully i will be able to submit online before wednesday, but i'm not too hopeful at the moment...
now -
I already use Basic PAYE Tools and will start reporting in real time from 6 April 2013. I plan to carry on using basic tools.
i will need to download -
The latest updated version for 2012-13 then use this to complete and send my 2012-13 Employer Annual Return.
Once that's complete (but not before), I will download the RTI version of Basic PAYE Tools for 2013-14
so, i updated to the latest version a few weeks ago & have run year end but am unable to submit online as 'gateway busy'. from the last line above, i understand that i cannot download the new basic tools with RTI as year end hasn't been submitted. correct? so how do i do next weeks wages?? hopefully i will be able to submit online before wednesday, but i'm not too hopeful at the moment...
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i've just read this October date being quoted on another forum where people are having problems filing year end.
this is the info i've found on HMRC.
i'm guessing that even though we pay weekly & are less than 50 employees, i enter wages onto basic tools on a weekly basis (this is running payroll i presume?), so we wouldn't qualify for this concession?
i don't know what it is about info on HMRC, my brain seems to turn to mush whenever i try to make sense of it! :|
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makes sense (in HMRC world!), thanks
it might have applied to us a few years ago thinking about it, we used to pay a basic 40 hour wage each week then at month end I'd 'do' the wages & pay any difference owed.
even if you meet that criteria, you still have to file monthly. the way it's being quoted on this other forum, people seem to think they have until October before they have to do any RTI reporting at all...
confusion all round it would seem
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Exactly, yet it is reported all over the place as if it were a major concession for small employers everywhere. I take it that this is so HMRC and Ministers can claim that they're Good Guys, with the interests of small businesses at heart. And Journos apparently lap it up no questions asked, which is quite surprising.
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Like an earlier poster I use Sage, and as of this afternoon it was still blocking Y/End submissions as Sage themselves hadn't been able to successfully send test submissions, or receive an acknowledgement, and clearly feel that until they can, it's "safer" if we don't either -- I guess in case it falls into an HMRC black hole when it could be claimed it wasn't received.
Also like others, the frustration is that till the YE return's submitted, I can't upgrade Sage to the new RTI-enabled version to deal with the new tax year. We only have 2 employees, one paid weekly and the other monthly, and I really wanted a few days to familiarise myself with RTI (once I can see it in the new version), iron out queries and make sure the required additional details are correct before submitting the first RTI return.
But before the first RTI pay-date, and after the YE submission finally goes (if it ever does!), the Sage programme will also submit an EAS, to "align" our data with HMRC and use as a benchmark. Strictly speaking in our situation I don't think we need to do an EAS, but maybe Sage decided it was easier if all their users went through the same process.
None of that can be done and I can't even see what's in the new RTI software till the YE return's gone. I'm glad Sage are safeguarding our position till they're confident returns will go through, but as for HMRC..... well, I was going to say "words fail me" but on past experience I don't know why I'm in the least surprised! Nothing's been updated on their website about service availability -- it still says the "scheduled maintenance" would be done by 6 a.m. yesterday/Saturday morning, after which submissions could resume. Clearly not.
I run our small payroll scheme from home so can try submitting at any time of any day or night within reason; but once we're into the working week again I can just see the whole system going into meltdown as the country's payroll staff all try submitting their returns and getting RTI up and running. In fact many may have been called in over the weekend to deal with it for the same reasons I wanted to get it done -- thinking to avoid the rush a little, or else they had employees to pay as early as tomorrow -- but it sounds like they'll be in the same boat.
Will try again a bit later tonight, but I'm not hopeful so it'll be into the melee with everyone else tomorrow... worrying about whether I can get into RTI by next Friday when our weekly employee is due his pay.
Also like others, the frustration is that till the YE return's submitted, I can't upgrade Sage to the new RTI-enabled version to deal with the new tax year. We only have 2 employees, one paid weekly and the other monthly, and I really wanted a few days to familiarise myself with RTI (once I can see it in the new version), iron out queries and make sure the required additional details are correct before submitting the first RTI return.
But before the first RTI pay-date, and after the YE submission finally goes (if it ever does!), the Sage programme will also submit an EAS, to "align" our data with HMRC and use as a benchmark. Strictly speaking in our situation I don't think we need to do an EAS, but maybe Sage decided it was easier if all their users went through the same process.
None of that can be done and I can't even see what's in the new RTI software till the YE return's gone. I'm glad Sage are safeguarding our position till they're confident returns will go through, but as for HMRC..... well, I was going to say "words fail me" but on past experience I don't know why I'm in the least surprised! Nothing's been updated on their website about service availability -- it still says the "scheduled maintenance" would be done by 6 a.m. yesterday/Saturday morning, after which submissions could resume. Clearly not.
I run our small payroll scheme from home so can try submitting at any time of any day or night within reason; but once we're into the working week again I can just see the whole system going into meltdown as the country's payroll staff all try submitting their returns and getting RTI up and running. In fact many may have been called in over the weekend to deal with it for the same reasons I wanted to get it done -- thinking to avoid the rush a little, or else they had employees to pay as early as tomorrow -- but it sounds like they'll be in the same boat.
Will try again a bit later tonight, but I'm not hopeful so it'll be into the melee with everyone else tomorrow... worrying about whether I can get into RTI by next Friday when our weekly employee is due his pay.
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This is what's annoying me. I had taken over doing the payroll for an organisation with 25 employees which didn't need an EAS. But I can't do a FPS for their wages on Saturday in Sage until the (not required by HMRC) EAS is done. And as Sage can't get through they appear to not be letting anyone through.
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So far so good.
My firm spent a awful lot of time preparing for the change and it's paid off so far.
so you've successfully submitted online end of year returns to HMRC?
i've given up trying now until i attempt the wages on Weds.
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more fool me but i've just tried again, still the same, gateway busy - failed.
looking on twitter, loads of other people complaining of exactly the same thing.
getting really pipped off now...
It's nothing new - typical end of the tax year and HMRC.
They are fairly good at listing issues on the website here.
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Kulture: spotted something which sounds reassuring about your Saturday non-payday. I can't post links yet, so maybe this'll work but you'll have to tweak it to get there:
accountingweb.co.uk / group-thread / paying-employees-6-april-2013
(see the first comment there, which has a further link)
accountingweb.co.uk / group-thread / paying-employees-6-april-2013
(see the first comment there, which has a further link)
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It's nothing new - typical end of the tax year and HMRC.
They are fairly good at listing issues on the website here.
i keep checking but there's no new updates, just about a delay in receiving submission confirmation, if only i could get to that stage!
they've basically forced vast nos. of people to submit year end returns all at one time so they can move on to RTI software. external systems appear better set up for this as you can still carry on doing payroll even if year end hasn't been submitted. with HMRC basic tools, you can't. everyone who uses basic tools & pays weeks is now frantically trying to submit year end so we can then update basic tools to the RTI version & do this weeks wages. excellent plan HMRC!
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On another tab I'm logged in to the Sage page for updates, and refresh it now and then latest. Currently it has:
HMRC are still experiencing lengthy polling delays for year end 2012/2013 P35 submissions. If you are submitting year end 2012/2013 please continue to check this page for status updates and try your submission again later.
RTI submissions are being accepted by HMRC.
Last updated: 08/04/2013 15:07:49
No joy yet then. Trying to piece it together and read between the lines, it seems to be an issue with Sage either (a) experiencing long delays with their test submissions, or (b) not receiving the usual acknowledgement back to the Sage software -- or perhaps (c) both -- so they're continuing to block all attempts from their software as a safeguard till these issues are resolved. It may well be the same with some other software providers, but I wouldn't know.
Which, in a sense, is all well and good as a not unreasonable safeguard for Sage users; but on the other hand it also seems from looking around elsewhere that other people have been able to submit their YE data, even if long delays have been involved.
In addition, the HMRC website says that acknowledgements (that's their emailed acknowledgements, which we receive in addition to the one we see from within Sage) won't be sent promptly, but sometime between yesterday and 18:00 tomorrow, Tuesday.
My worry is whether the mechanism for Sage to receive it's "internal" receipt (and therefore the criteria they're using for being a "successful" submission) is in any way linked with or dependent on HMRC sending out their separate emailed receipt. If it is, we're faced with not being able to file our YE returns till possibly tomorrow night. Or who knows when if the HMRC site has problems. But till then, no chance of getting to the point of beginning to find our way round and deal with RTI, once the new tax year's Sage software has been installed.
I was going to call Sage to try and clarify this, but the same page I'm logged in to also has their latest update of call waiting times. In the time it's taken to write this, it was 65 mins at the start, rose to 77 mins at one point, and currently 58 mins. I imagine as it gets later in the day, a good proportion of callers are users starting to panic slightly about exactly when they'll be able to "get going" with RTI, as I am.
I'm in two minds whether to call or not... really don't want to be hanging on for an hour or more!
HMRC are still experiencing lengthy polling delays for year end 2012/2013 P35 submissions. If you are submitting year end 2012/2013 please continue to check this page for status updates and try your submission again later.
RTI submissions are being accepted by HMRC.
Last updated: 08/04/2013 15:07:49
No joy yet then. Trying to piece it together and read between the lines, it seems to be an issue with Sage either (a) experiencing long delays with their test submissions, or (b) not receiving the usual acknowledgement back to the Sage software -- or perhaps (c) both -- so they're continuing to block all attempts from their software as a safeguard till these issues are resolved. It may well be the same with some other software providers, but I wouldn't know.
Which, in a sense, is all well and good as a not unreasonable safeguard for Sage users; but on the other hand it also seems from looking around elsewhere that other people have been able to submit their YE data, even if long delays have been involved.
In addition, the HMRC website says that acknowledgements (that's their emailed acknowledgements, which we receive in addition to the one we see from within Sage) won't be sent promptly, but sometime between yesterday and 18:00 tomorrow, Tuesday.
My worry is whether the mechanism for Sage to receive it's "internal" receipt (and therefore the criteria they're using for being a "successful" submission) is in any way linked with or dependent on HMRC sending out their separate emailed receipt. If it is, we're faced with not being able to file our YE returns till possibly tomorrow night. Or who knows when if the HMRC site has problems. But till then, no chance of getting to the point of beginning to find our way round and deal with RTI, once the new tax year's Sage software has been installed.
I was going to call Sage to try and clarify this, but the same page I'm logged in to also has their latest update of call waiting times. In the time it's taken to write this, it was 65 mins at the start, rose to 77 mins at one point, and currently 58 mins. I imagine as it gets later in the day, a good proportion of callers are users starting to panic slightly about exactly when they'll be able to "get going" with RTI, as I am.
I'm in two minds whether to call or not... really don't want to be hanging on for an hour or more!
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do HMRC support the opposite of the plain English campaign?!
on every single attempt that i have made the result has been "your return has NOT been submitted. gateway busy, failed". it didn't show that it had made any connection whatsoever, 8 attempts each time & no connection.
i've just tried again & am now getting -
"submission failed: Your Employer Annual Return has NOT been successfully submitted. The details are: Error returned from the HMRC Gateway
Return Type: You have already filed an original return."
what?!? absolutely ridiculous...
now, do i just accept this new garbled message & go ahead with the update to the new RTI software & carry on with wages as normal? or wait until i receive at least 1 successful submission email??
on every single attempt that i have made the result has been "your return has NOT been submitted. gateway busy, failed". it didn't show that it had made any connection whatsoever, 8 attempts each time & no connection.
i've just tried again & am now getting -
"submission failed: Your Employer Annual Return has NOT been successfully submitted. The details are: Error returned from the HMRC Gateway
Return Type: You have already filed an original return."
what?!? absolutely ridiculous...
now, do i just accept this new garbled message & go ahead with the update to the new RTI software & carry on with wages as normal? or wait until i receive at least 1 successful submission email??
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K
keithr
I am in pretty much the same situation - I am glad I am not alone (I didn't think I would be!). No matter what I do I get "you have already filed an original return" but my submissions both online and through the Basic PAYE tools have all failed.
I have gone ahead with the RTI, which actually worked (although you cannot load the backup from Basic Tools 2012 into the new RTI software unless you have made a successful return which I cannot do!). So I am now stuck making the P35/P14 submissions for last year.
I will not hold my breath for an answer to the email I sent to HMRC and usually they just reply telling you to phone them - something that I haven't time to do (from past experience that takes hours for them to answer the phone).
Keith
I have gone ahead with the RTI, which actually worked (although you cannot load the backup from Basic Tools 2012 into the new RTI software unless you have made a successful return which I cannot do!). So I am now stuck making the P35/P14 submissions for last year.
I will not hold my breath for an answer to the email I sent to HMRC and usually they just reply telling you to phone them - something that I haven't time to do (from past experience that takes hours for them to answer the phone).
Keith
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Well, following on from earlier post, I did call Sage to clarify the message being seen from within the software when the YE submission fails: the wording of this has in fact changed, and is different now from what it said on Sat/Sun (that's in Instant Payroll, which I use).
They confirmed that to begin with they (Sage) were blocking submissions from their software till they'd successfully made a test submission themselves; but that's now changed and it's no longer being blocked.
If our submissions aren't going through now it's purely because the HMRC Gateway is busy and we must "try again later". I'll try again later on tonight when it may have quietened down, and hope for the best
They confirmed that to begin with they (Sage) were blocking submissions from their software till they'd successfully made a test submission themselves; but that's now changed and it's no longer being blocked.
If our submissions aren't going through now it's purely because the HMRC Gateway is busy and we must "try again later". I'll try again later on tonight when it may have quietened down, and hope for the best
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unsuccesful submission emails are just starting to come through now, i expect there will be quite a few...
i have now downloaded new basic paye tools & have been able to transfer employer/employee data ok. it's completely different to previous years tools but i'm sure all will become clear once i start using it.
do you think that this will be the last year end fiasco now that RTI is here?
no, i won't hold my breath either!
Keith, i'd try submitting again like i did. i'm sure you'll get thru now or later (out of normal best i think at the moment), i did straight away. good luck
i have now downloaded new basic paye tools & have been able to transfer employer/employee data ok. it's completely different to previous years tools but i'm sure all will become clear once i start using it.
do you think that this will be the last year end fiasco now that RTI is here?
no, i won't hold my breath either!
Keith, i'd try submitting again like i did. i'm sure you'll get thru now or later (out of normal best i think at the moment), i did straight away. good luck
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as long as you've had a successful submission email, you should be sorted. i really think it's been the delay in acknowledgement that has let the system down. without the confirmation at HMRC end, their own software didn't know it had gone though ok until you tried again.
i'll be phoning HMRC towards the end of the month just to double check (just to let some of the dust settle before i try calling them!).
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