Rising energy costs

[SillyBill]

not so...the stock market is not part of the free market, it is and always has been a toy for the masters. They know what the market will be in 5 years. 2 months, tomorrow, they make the market. Price discovery is simply a weird thoery of some crazy Lord

Doesn't sound as if you've had a positive experience. A significant part of my own income since I was, say about 30, when the size of pot began to accumulate, has been stock market dividends, very rarely sell anything so hardly a difficult pursuit to follow. Buy good companies, earn a share of their profits. Working class background, didn't start with anything, been doing it since I was 18. No "master" of anything. 25-50%+ of my annual income has gone into the market, year in year out. Have done all my own pension planning (SIPP) since I was in my mid 20s too as I don't need to pay these "masters" for the privilege of earning less than I can. If there is a conspiracy theory out there, I'm happy to hear it. There is no unadulterated free market in anything IME either, the state and its cronies has differing levels of involvement from outright ownership to regulatory oversight to market steering (subsidies, tax advantages for whatever they want to promote) across all aspects of the economy. Every day in business, I am trying to second guess our government, which seems to get larger every year.

 

[DontAsk]

Google search "stock market manipulation"
30,100,000 results in 0.49 seconds

I've done very well out of it over the past 37 yrs, thank you. That, and house prices, and good financial common sense.

 

[japancool]

The value of your currency has also reduced since 1985, about 70%, so factor that into the basket and then deduct inflation

Umm - that IS inflation.

 

[DontAsk]

In which case you self invested and self managed the portfolio

No.

as the data since 85 across a basket of shares does not provide a substantive return.
House price inflation is just that, yours goes up, so does everyone else's.
The value of your currency has also reduced since 1985, about 70%, so factor that into the basket and then deduct inflation, on the FTSE and the stock market has not performed at all.

Rubbish.

 

[japancool]

Devaluation vs. Inflation — What’s the Difference?

Devaluation lowers a currency's value vs others or commodities, set by authorities. Inflation is rising prices reducing purchasing power.

www.askdifference.com

just so you can understand the difference

Oh, you mean Black Wednesday?

However, devaluation only matters if you intend to convert your money internationally. Yes, devaluation causes imports to cost more, and you know what that is? Inflation.

 

[DontAsk]

only 20 of the original companies listed in 1985 still exist...

And your point is?

 

[NewTime]

Away from the impact on business, the impact on households has been indifferent.

My Dad uses pre-payment for his gas and electric because he's old and old fasioned. But his bills are nowhere near £5k/year. His gas has gone up by £5/week. But he fortunuately has got a lot of help through the COL benefits as he receives pension credit, meaning he doesn't feel it. Effectively an increase of £400/year and he has got £1k+ in these benefit schemes. Fortunate for him.

But also does it not feel that prices are going up for the sake of going up? I bought something for £1 3 months ago, it's is now £1.25 - really 25%? A discount shop I use, EVERY item has an increase.

I think right now the government needs to force these companies to non-profit until things get better.

 

[UKSBD]

My Dad uses pre-payment for his gas and electric because he's old and old fasioned. But his bills are nowhere near £5k/year. His gas has gone up by £5/week.

If it went up £5 in April it's likely to go up another £12 a week in October and then another £5 a week in January

 

[WaveJumper]

Someones doing ok out of the turmoil

Saudi Aramco: Oil giant tops own record with $48.4bn quarterly profit

The staggering profit comes amid soaring oil prices in the aftermath of Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Not a subway]

Away from the impact on business, the impact on households has been indifferent.

My Dad uses pre-payment for his gas and electric because he's old and old fasioned. But his bills are nowhere near £5k/year. His gas has gone up by £5/week. But he fortunuately has got a lot of help through the COL benefits as he receives pension credit, meaning he doesn't feel it. Effectively an increase of £400/year and he has got £1k+ in these benefit schemes. Fortunate for him.

But also does it not feel that prices are going up for the sake of going up? I bought something for £1 3 months ago, it's is now £1.25 - really 25%? A discount shop I use, EVERY item has an increase.

I think right now the government needs to force these companies to non-profit until things get better.

Discount shops operate on margins of 2-3%. What profits are you talking about?
And if they didn't take a profit they would just take a higher salary.
That's capitalism and That's Dallas!

 

[NickGrogan]

I think right now the government needs to force these companies to non-profit until things get better.

27 suppliers went bust when this all started. The ones that remain are those that make money on the generation side and lose money on the supply side. Those that don't generate are just losing money.

The margin in domestic energy is set by Ofgem, currently at 1.9%

"The price cap only allows for a 1.9% supplier profit margin point to prevent excess retail profits"

Ofgem confirms changes to the price cap methodology and frequency ahead of new rate to be announced later this month

Ofgem has confirmed that the energy price cap will be updated quarterly, rather than every six months.

www.ofgem.gov.uk

EDF had to be fully nationalised by the French Government because it was losing too much money. Bulb, effectively owned by the UK Government, lost £5B last time they updated. The current figure is far higher.

Things aren't going to get better for a long time.

 

[japancool]

27 suppliers went bust when this all started. The ones that remain are those that make money on the generation side and lose money on the supply side. Those that don't generate are just losing money.

But BP and Shell are UK companies and are making excess profits. Could slap a bigger windfall tax on them and use it to subsidise the price cap.

 

[Newchodge]

But BP and Shell are UK companies and are making excess profits. Could slap a bigger windfall tax on them and use it to subsidise the price cap.

I don't understand how 'energy suppliers' who don't produce energy can be considered suppliers. They are re-sellers, do they actually have a real function?

 

[NickGrogan]

I don't understand how 'energy suppliers' who don't produce energy can be considered suppliers. They are re-sellers, do they actually have a real function?

All energy suppliers are resellers. They may or may not have a generation arm. That's how the market is set up and regulated.

From Ofgem

Generation is incentivised mainly on their success in operating and maintaining their power plants and other generation assets.

Trading is focused on executing trades and hedges on behalf of Generation and Supply, with any proprietary trading activity that they undertake on their own behalf kept separate from these transactions.

Supply is primarily concerned with sales to customers, including forecasting demand, sales strategies and marketing.

Three separate legal entities whom are required to trade at arms length,

As an aside, your electricity meter is owned and read by another company, which may or may not be connected to any of the other 3.

The cable/pipe coming into your house is owned by another company, if you're on a new estate that is like to be a different company to the one that owns the cables/pipes that come down your street.

Does Amazon, Tesco or John Lewis have a real function, they're resellers too.

 

[UKSBD]

I don't understand how 'energy suppliers' who don't produce energy can be considered suppliers. They are re-sellers, do they actually have a real function?

A lot of the time the directors of energy companies are also directors of multiple consultancy businesses.

I dare say the energy companies who are about to go bust have to get advice from consultants and pay a lot of money for this advice before all their reserves are spent.

 

[Picture Bute]

All energy suppliers are resellers. They may or may not have a generation arm. That's how the market is set up and regulated.

From Ofgem

Generation is incentivised mainly on their success in operating and maintaining their power plants and other generation assets.

Trading is focused on executing trades and hedges on behalf of Generation and Supply, with any proprietary trading activity that they undertake on their own behalf kept separate from these transactions.

Supply is primarily concerned with sales to customers, including forecasting demand, sales strategies and marketing.

Three separate legal entities whom are required to trade at arms length,

As an aside, your electricity meter is owned and read by another company, which may or may not be connected to any of the other 3.

The cable/pipe coming into your house is owned by another company, if you're on a new estate that is like to be a different company to the one that owns the cables/pipes that come down your street.

Does Amazon, Tesco or John Lewis have a real function, they're resellers too.

Hardly a valid comparison, is it ?

 

[UKSBD]

All energy suppliers are resellers. They may or may not have a generation arm. That's how the market is set up and regulated.

From Ofgem

Generation is incentivised mainly on their success in operating and maintaining their power plants and other generation assets.

Trading is focused on executing trades and hedges on behalf of Generation and Supply, with any proprietary trading activity that they undertake on their own behalf kept separate from these transactions.

Supply is primarily concerned with sales to customers, including forecasting demand, sales strategies and marketing.

Three separate legal entities whom are required to trade at arms length,

As an aside, your electricity meter is owned and read by another company, which may or may not be connected to any of the other 3.

The cable/pipe coming into your house is owned by another company, if you're on a new estate that is like to be a different company to the one that owns the cables/pipes that come down your street.

Does Amazon, Tesco or John Lewis have a real function, they're resellers too.

Where do the switching companies come in to it?

Is it the small suppliers who pay the switching companies to generate the customers?

 

[NickGrogan]

Where do the switching companies come in to it?

Is it the small suppliers who pay the switching companies to generate the customers?

Mainly the larger ones, they have the finances to afford it and are focused on retaining volume.

 

[NickGrogan]

Hardly a valid comparison, is it ?

Aren't they resellers?

If I go on amazon and buy a product from a third-party supplier, what is amazon actually doing?

What did Tesco do with my Heinz beans apart from selling them to me?

 

[Newchodge]

Aren't they resellers?

If I go on amazon and buy a product from a third-party supplier, what is amazon actually doing?

What did Tesco do with my Heinz beans apart from selling them to me?

Well, at the very least they got them to a point where I could access them. What, precisely, do the elctricity resellers do?

 

[Picture Bute]

Aren't they resellers?

If I go on amazon and buy a product from a third-party supplier, what is amazon actually doing?

What did Tesco do with my Heinz beans apart from selling them to me?

Do you have to buy Heinz beans ? Is there anything you actually have to buy from Amazon ?

I think you'll find, unless you live in a treehouse, that electricity and/or gas and water could be classed in this century, as essential. The other things you list are not.

 

[NickGrogan]

They track how much energy you've used and provide a way for you to pay the generator/trader for the energy you've used.

They estimate the demand and buy energy on your behalf and give you a fixed price so that you know what your bill will be before it comes - the wholesale price of electricity changes every 30 minutes - 17,520 times per year.

They collect various taxes, levies and other fees that are due to companies like the National Grid (they own big pylons)

They also provide customer support,

 

[NickGrogan]

Do you have to buy Heinz beans ? Is there anything you actually have to buy from Amazon ?

I think you'll find, unless you live in a treehouse, that electricity and/or gas and water could be classed in this century, as essential. The other things you list are not.

It doesn't have to be Heinz, but food is pretty essential.

How does that change anything?

 

[Picture Bute]

How does that change anything?

If you can't (or won't) see the difference then there's no point in further discussion

 

[Newchodge]

They track how much energy you've used and provide a way for you to pay the generator/trader for the energy you've used.

They estimate the demand and buy energy on your behalf and give you a fixed price so that you know what your bill will be before it comes - the wholesale price of electricity changes every 30 minutes - 17,520 times per year.

They collect various taxes, levies and other fees that are due to companies like the National Grid (they own big pylons)

They also provide customer support,

LOL

 

[simon field]

If you can't (or won't) see the difference then there's no point in further discussion

Do you think there should be a price cap on food (an essential), or an open, capitalist-stylee market?

 

[Picture Bute]

Do you think there should be a price cap on food (an essential), or an open, capitalist-stylee market?

Different argument, given I never said there should be a price cap on energy either.

If you want to have that discussion, then my view would be that energy generation in the UK should never have been privatised and neither should water (in England).

 

[NickGrogan]

Different argument, given I never said there should be a price cap on energy either.

If you want to have that discussion, then my view would be that energy generation in the UK should never have been privatised and neither should water (in England).

So what actually is your argument? I'm confused

 

[simon field]

Same here.

 

[NewTime]

Again, off topic, but curious to know people's responses.

We know energy costs are going crazy, but shouldn't there also be some help out there for families that will struggle to help them try and manage their energy costs effectively?

I went to one of my family members house last week and I was astounded how much mis-use of energy there is. THey cook meals as singles, when they could put their food in the oven together, all four hobs on when they could have done it with two. Some stupid electric features in their house that they don't neen, all switches on.

And they are a pretty poor family to be honest - is anyone getting the message out there of how to manage your energy better?

 

[Newchodge]

Again, off topic, but curious to know people's responses.

We know energy costs are going crazy, but shouldn't there also be some help out there for families that will struggle to help them try and manage their energy costs effectively?

I went to one of my family members house last week and I was astounded how much mis-use of energy there is. THey cook meals as singles, when they could put their food in the oven together, all four hobs on when they could have done it with two. Some stupid electric features in their house that they don't neen, all switches on.

And they are a pretty poor family to be honest - is anyone getting the message out there of how to manage your energy better?

Yes, but only to people who listen.

 

[UKSBD]

Again, off topic, but curious to know people's responses.

We know energy costs are going crazy, but shouldn't there also be some help out there for families that will struggle to help them try and manage their energy costs effectively?

I went to one of my family members house last week and I was astounded how much mis-use of energy there is. THey cook meals as singles, when they could put their food in the oven together, all four hobs on when they could have done it with two. Some stupid electric features in their house that they don't neen, all switches on.

And they are a pretty poor family to be honest - is anyone getting the message out there of how to manage your energy better?

Yes, but then you get people saying that it is patronising.

Why shouldn't the poor be able to cook when they want, but the rich can

Why should the poor only use 2 rings on their hob when the rich don't have to.

etc., etc.

If anyone who isn't liked offers advice, others jump on what they say and use it for point scoring.

Some of these people, companies can't win whatever they say

 

[Fred-smith2022]

I got a call today to renew quote with British gas from one of those utilities agents for my electric, 66 pence per unit and £2 per day standing charge for a 1 year fixed, which is a 450% hike on what i'm paying now, i declined there offer, my question is it worth fixing with a ridiculous price like this now or just to go on variable rate with our current supplier and hope the price goes down.

 

[NickGrogan]

I got a call today to renew quote with British gas from one of those utilities agents for my electric, 66 pence per unit and £2 per day standing charge for a 1 year fixed, which is a 450% hike on what i'm paying now, i declined there offer, my question is it worth fixing with a ridiculous price like this now or just to go on variable rate with our current supplier and hope the price goes down.

What is the out-of-contract rate with your being offered. Rates are very high now, but they will go higher over the winter.

There is a real chance of Europe running out of gas, which will push figures much higher.

 

[bright_future]

i don't believe you can have someone running a country who is a compulsive liar who breaks internationa law at the drop of a hat. and for whom corruption is a way of life.

You've just fallen for the convenient mainstream media narrative here.

Boris caused this mess by pushing Ukraine into this war, supporting energy sanctions which are causing the energy inflation and putting pressure on Ukraine NOT to agree a ceasefire.

He, Truss etc. are Atlantacists, will do NATO's bidding.

Start watching some decent geopolitical analysis like "The Duran" on youtube, and get your head out of MSM who will just push the NATO narrative at the public.

Let them eat cake. Collapsing the UK and German economies

Let them eat cake. Collapsing the UK and German economies

odysee.com

 

[bright_future]

You've just fallen for the convenient mainstream media narrative here.

Boris caused this mess by pushing Ukraine into this war, supporting energy sanctions which are causing the energy inflation and putting pressure on Ukraine NOT to agree a ceasefire.

He, Truss etc. are Atlantacists, will do NATO's bidding.

Start watching some decent geopolitical analysis like "The Duran" on youtube, and get your head out of MSM who will just push the NATO narrative at the public.

Let them eat cake. Collapsing the UK and German economies

Let them eat cake. Collapsing the UK and German economies

odysee.com

quote from the comments in that video (UK has the same sanctions policy as the EU, so when you see EU read "UK and EU"):

"I think the chances of the EU continuing to get Russian gas thru the winter, are pretty close to zero. The EU keeps threatening to cut Russian gas off completely. I think Putin will just beat them to the punch and completely shut down their supply. China and India will take every gram of gas and oil that Russia can produce. The EU has decided to commit economic and social suicide. They are like a second rate cult, drinking poison Koolaid in the vain hope that while they know it will kill them...a miracle will deliver them to energy heaven.

Morons...every one of them. Europe led the western empire for centuries until the US took the throne. Unfortunately for America, there won't be much of an empire to rule in the very near future.

The rest of the world has decided that they don't wish to be lectured to about eating bugs any longer. The moral, economic and social decay of the west is accelerating. The west is a dead empire walking."

 

[Mark T Jones]

Again, off topic, but curious to know people's responses.

We know energy costs are going crazy, but shouldn't there also be some help out there for families that will struggle to help them try and manage their energy costs effectively?

I went to one of my family members house last week and I was astounded how much mis-use of energy there is. THey cook meals as singles, when they could put their food in the oven together, all four hobs on when they could have done it with two. Some stupid electric features in their house that they don't neen, all switches on.

And they are a pretty poor family to be honest - is anyone getting the message out there of how to manage your energy better?

It would be fascinating to see like for like utilisation figures for this year vs previous years (in itself problematic as you'd really need to see an equal temperature, rainfall etc).

I've tried to dig out figures for petrol and diesel but they lag several months behind. My initial guess will be that there has been very little change.

It's not a class/income thing either we were far from poor growing up, but my dad would gave blown his nut if the thermostat went above 20 degrees now 21 is considered the norm/minimum

 

[IanSuth]

It would be fascinating to see like for like utilisation figures for this year vs previous years (in itself problematic as you'd really need to see an equal temperature, rainfall etc).

I've tried to dig out figures for petrol and diesel but they lag several months behind. My initial guess will be that there has been very little change.

It's not a class/income thing either we were far from poor growing up, but my dad would gave blown his nut if the thermostat went above 20 degrees now 21 is considered the norm/minimum

17.5 here (but it is in hall near door), I grew up in a cold farmhouse as did wife (her on dartmoor) so I struggle in others houses and daughter positively melted in a uni hall with always on heating.

I wonder how places like that will cope. Universities already set their hall fees which include all heating/lighting. Their cleaners are going to cost more in wages and all their bills are going up. On top of that the ones which are part of a uni (rather than a separate company) will also have teaching staff getting more pay, many other higher costs but a frozen tuition fee from each student and as far as I know no increased govt money.

What about the cost to the NHS and care homes with all their heating requirements - that will eat a huge slice of the NHS budget uplift (quite apart from the fact the NI rise hits them hardest as the largest employer)

 

[Mark T Jones]

17.5 here (but it is in hall near door), I grew up in a cold farmhouse as did wife (her on dartmoor) so I struggle in others houses and daughter positively melted in a uni hall with always on heating.

I wonder how places like that will cope. Universities already set their hall fees which include all heating/lighting. Their cleaners are going to cost more in wages and all their bills are going up. On top of that the ones which are part of a uni (rather than a separate company) will also have teaching staff getting more pay, many other higher costs but a frozen tuition fee from each student and as far as I know no increased govt money.

What about the cost to the NHS and care homes with all their heating requirements - that will eat a huge slice of the NHS budget uplift (quite apart from the fact the NI rise hits them hardest as the largest employer)

I definitely won't be sobbing for students who have to live in less hot rooms!

There are intrinsic requirements for some - though I strongly suspect the NHS could make some significant energy savings without impacting on service or patient welfare.

Incidentally, this is one area that I do believe that Government intervention maty be required (always remembering that Government intervention is our money, which ha to be diverted from somewhere). BUT with a strong underlying message that the way to pay less for energy is to use less energy.

 

[Newchodge]

You've just fallen for the convenient mainstream media narrative here.

Boris caused this mess by pushing Ukraine into this war, supporting energy sanctions which are causing the energy inflation and putting pressure on Ukraine NOT to agree a ceasefire.

He, Truss etc. are Atlantacists, will do NATO's bidding.

Start watching some decent geopolitical analysis like "The Duran" on youtube, and get your head out of MSM who will just push the NATO narrative at the public.

Let them eat cake. Collapsing the UK and German economies

Let them eat cake. Collapsing the UK and German economies

odysee.com

Please don't tell me what my opinion should be.