It's the natural degradation of a capitalist society; those collected at the bottom of the heap increase in number as the wealth is shared out amongst fewer and fewer of the ruling elite. Capitalism breaks when the wealth becomes unobtainable to the majority, and we are not a million miles away from that now.
Hence, those at the bottom vent in ways we in the middle find outrageous and disgraceful.
To understand why it happens is not excusing it; they should all be publicly flogged along with their useless parents, but the reasons for it happening are not going away any time soon.
Hence, those at the bottom vent in ways we in the middle find outrageous and disgraceful.
To understand why it happens is not excusing it; they should all be publicly flogged along with their useless parents, but the reasons for it happening are not going away any time soon.
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Beachcomber
- Original Poster
- #46
True - but one of the major misconceptions is that it is only those 'at the bottom' who behave in this way. They are just the first to go.
It really doesn't take much for even the most respectable people to turn feral in a very short period of time given the right circumstances.
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I disagree, I think we are an apathetic / forgiving lot who have the capacity to accept a high volume of stuff we don't like or disagree with as long as we have the necessities in life (Porsche, champagne, pork scratchings etc
). Only if me or mine where physically threatened would I turn feral and I suspect its the same for the majority.
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- Original Poster
- #51
this well worth a read
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...ring-costs-ndash-but-so-do-riots-2333991.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...ring-costs-ndash-but-so-do-riots-2333991.html
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Who made them?
That's handing the responsibility of their actions back onto "us".......whoever "us" is.
None of my kids would ever get involved in this stuff..........nor did my father who was brought up in far worse conditions than the majority of the people involved. I was brought up with people who thought it was right to throw bricks and petrol bombs at the police and army - all of them had the same problems and opportunities that I had and nobody forced them to do what they did.
Each and every one of the people who are involved decided to do it. They are not a product of their environment nor circumstances. If they are silly enough and gullible enough to get involved then it's not "us" that are to blame but "them".
Personal responsibility stops right at the person (unless there's a fundamental mental problem which thankfully the vast majority of us do not suffer from). Responsibility of instilling values in your children and teaching them that looting and rioting is not the answer lies with the parents.
"We" are not responsible for any kid who throws a brick or loots or riots.
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Parthelan
- Original Poster
- #56
Maybe you did, but I certainly didnt.
I would absolutely LOVE to know how me, and the tens if not hundreds of thousands like me, working hard and paying our dues all our life, setting an example for our kids and those around us, funding and running youth activities, bringing up a large family to respect themselves and all those around them, instilling a sense of community and belonging in both our kids and those who are classed as ''at risk'' that I/we work with, always giving a high profile to the value of education and initiating and supporting commuinity projects both here and abroad in ANY WAY makes me or the tens of thousands like me responsible for the ''making'' of those ferral scumbags.
Time to stop scapegoating and put the blame squarely where it lies: THEIR parents and THEM !!!!!!!
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Yes I did and although it is well written I have to disagree with some of the fundamentals and some of the exaggerations.
"It's not one occasional attack on dignity, it's a repeated humiliation, being continuously dispossessed in a society rich with possession. Young, intelligent citizens of the ghetto seek an explanation for why they are at the receiving end of bleak Britain, condemned to a darkness where their humanity is not even valued enough to be helped."
That's basically saying that the people who get involved are "victims" who are at the receiving end. Well that is their choice to decide to listen to their peers who state this. I know it is hard......I had to listen to those who wanted to recruit for organised violence but you and I as individuals need to decide what to listen to and what to choose. It is not automatic to become a "victim". You either decide to work your way out or to live within the problems or else to become a "victim"........that's your own choice.
Yes there must be things that can be done to lessen the problems and to get people some hope and self-respect but when there is much more money to be made, fro example, selling drugs then that temptation is there.
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Agree. Education is one of the key things but there are a lot who don't want to learn. I know this sounds bad but we need to stream them by their capabilities. Our schooling system suits the more intelligent kids who can handle maths etc. but there are a lot who just can't and these fall by the wayside. In the "old" days kids left school at 14 and went into apprenticeships where they learnt a trade.........now they sit on the internet all night loathing school. I don't know if this is the answer but I'd rather see each and every kid have a plan for their future which excited them.
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Beachcomber
- Original Poster
- #62
"Us" is our society in which we live.
Yes they are - because environment and circumstances are only 2 important aspects. If there is not a proper set of moral values instilled in a person then they will have the potential to do these things.
You obviously had these values, hence why you did not behave the same way as some of those around you - and you are totally right regarding parental responsibility, the responsibility for instilling values has been taken away from parents, the continued interference of the nanny state has absolved parents of all responsibility to the point where parents can blame the schools / government for their kids turning out bad and can absolve themselves of all blame.
Trouble is, this is all happening in the society in which we live - and unless we are going to reintroduce and redefine a class system then these people have to be classed as "us"
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Beachcomber is right - what is needed is a return to the personal responsibility and morality that has been eroded by the rise of political correctness over the last 30 years. This has seen the rule of law gradually breakdown, as people stop fearing punishment.
Cameron was talking yesterday about how people convicted of offences will feel "the full force of the law". But in practice these people will get a nice community service sentence, maybe a short custodial sentence (which they will do little more than half of) or maybe get a small fine (that will be spread over several months if they are on benefits and which they probably wont bother paying anyway).
Until people fear the law, and the consequences of breaking it, we are always going to run the risk of things like what is happening now. The police service needs to become a police force again, and magistrates and judges need to be able to "punish" offenders (and if that means that sentences for other crimes have to be increased as well, so be it).
Heres hoping that the Parliamentary debate tomorrow will mark the start of the fightback, and our politicians (and, maybe more importantly, the media), will have the courage to stop listening to the media elite and take the action that is required to return this country to the people who actually make a positive contribution to it.
Cameron was talking yesterday about how people convicted of offences will feel "the full force of the law". But in practice these people will get a nice community service sentence, maybe a short custodial sentence (which they will do little more than half of) or maybe get a small fine (that will be spread over several months if they are on benefits and which they probably wont bother paying anyway).
Until people fear the law, and the consequences of breaking it, we are always going to run the risk of things like what is happening now. The police service needs to become a police force again, and magistrates and judges need to be able to "punish" offenders (and if that means that sentences for other crimes have to be increased as well, so be it).
Heres hoping that the Parliamentary debate tomorrow will mark the start of the fightback, and our politicians (and, maybe more importantly, the media), will have the courage to stop listening to the media elite and take the action that is required to return this country to the people who actually make a positive contribution to it.
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Whilst I don't disagree with most of your post there are a few things to take into consideration.
Prison to a lot of these people is seen as a badge of honor and 3 square meals a day so not really a great deterrant.
Secondly the country simply doesn't have the money or resources to lock up every offender.
I don't know the answer to these problems or even if there is an answer.
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Which is why the prison system needs to be reformed. Firstly, when you go to prison, you go for a long time (rather than a couple of weeks), disrupting your place in your social groups.
And when you get there, it is a sufficiently grim experience that regardless of any social cachet attached to having been to prison you don't want to go back. None of this en suite facilities business, 3 square meals a day and playing on the playstation....
This would also address some of the problems with the huge costs of keeping people in prison.
Yes, the country is facing tough economic times, but we have to break the cycle that is keeping people in the underclass. If nothing else, the costs of maintaining this underclasss through the benefits system is one of the reasons that we have the economic problems we do.
I have not seen much evidence over the last few years that being nice and pandering to the underclass has worked. It is time to try something different.
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I think we basically agree (although it may not sound like we do). I don't see how anything took away parental responsibility. I think that if any parent claims that they don't have the ultimate responsibility for educating their children (morals/values etc.) then they are not fit to be parents. Yes it can take years off your life and yes teenagers can have a mind of their own but in my opinion us parents must prevent other "idiots" instilling the wrong values in our kids' heads. The buck stops at us the parents.........nowhere else.
All I can do is to teach my kids that it isn't right to beat up an OAP just because it is easy money and to "fight" against those who want to "teach" my children otherwise. The most important thing that my parents gave me was their teaching of what was right and what was wrong and I will carry that to my grave. I'm not trying to pretend that this is easy especially in "deprived" areas but it has to be done if you really love your kids........you cannot hand over their minds to the thugs.
Well "us" if you mean those parents who don't seem to give a toss what their kids are up to.
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scribe
- Original Poster
- #69
No i didn't, and no-one is morally superior, just pissed off that this government and past governments have done sod all other than panda to Euro toss pots and there human Bill of rights which is OK if your your a
lowlife piece of scum similar to what is roaming our street's at present.
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1) Make parents legally responsible for the actions of their children (not just up to the age of 18 but until the young person is earning and paying taxes).
2) Issue tasers to the police force to be used in extreme circumstances. Bad police decisions sometimes result from fear for personal safety.
3) Fine those who take videos of youths robbing others while doing nothing to stop it from happening.
4) Use technology to identify every rioter caught on camera and ensure they (and the parents of minors) are brought to trial.
5) Force those who damage a small business to work for that business until their debt is paid off.
6) End the welfare state and entitlements and instill once again a sense of personal responsibility.
7) Privatize all schools, because government schools have failed our young people for far too long.
8) Oust politicians who promote class warfare by constantly claiming that the rich don't pay their fair share (they already pay a disproportionately large amount in taxes).
9) Invest in our young people: youth clubs, sports facilities and leagues, marching bands, army reserves, etc. If we don't invest in our future, we can't complain when it's bleak.
10) Recognize that the current penchant for attacking religious faith has consequences. When right and wrong becomes relative, all hell breaks loose.
2) Issue tasers to the police force to be used in extreme circumstances. Bad police decisions sometimes result from fear for personal safety.
3) Fine those who take videos of youths robbing others while doing nothing to stop it from happening.
4) Use technology to identify every rioter caught on camera and ensure they (and the parents of minors) are brought to trial.
5) Force those who damage a small business to work for that business until their debt is paid off.
6) End the welfare state and entitlements and instill once again a sense of personal responsibility.
7) Privatize all schools, because government schools have failed our young people for far too long.
8) Oust politicians who promote class warfare by constantly claiming that the rich don't pay their fair share (they already pay a disproportionately large amount in taxes).
9) Invest in our young people: youth clubs, sports facilities and leagues, marching bands, army reserves, etc. If we don't invest in our future, we can't complain when it's bleak.
10) Recognize that the current penchant for attacking religious faith has consequences. When right and wrong becomes relative, all hell breaks loose.
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The political elite seems to have lost all kind of religion, they secret religious nuts, but publically athiest and it causes confusion. Pick a religion and stick with it.
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Rhyl Lightworks
- Original Poster
- #75
Sticking plaster solutions that are now being proposed will ensure this problem occurs in this and other countries every few years. It is all very well for the right to demand punitive measures and the left to blame government cuts, but society has become polarised over many years, and we have allowed this to happen. I largely blame capitalism and irresponsible advertising, abdication of parental responsibility brought on by a culture of 'me, me, me' and the rot has gone too far to know of a quick fix solution.
It will take many decades, if at all, to eridicate this.
And what example is being showed to the looters? This is summed up succintly in a letter in today's Guardian:
'When the dispossessed take what they like and no one can stop them it's called looting. When bankers take what they like and no one can stop them, it's called a bonus'
Barrie
It will take many decades, if at all, to eridicate this.
And what example is being showed to the looters? This is summed up succintly in a letter in today's Guardian:
'When the dispossessed take what they like and no one can stop them it's called looting. When bankers take what they like and no one can stop them, it's called a bonus'
Barrie
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T
thisthatandtheother
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