Refusal of Flexible Working & Appeal Queries

[MsB]

My daughter's (additional) maternity leave finished on 1st April 2013. Prior to this (28/02/13) she had a meeting with the company's business manager to request flexible working (the Company/Organisation has it's own flexible working policy) and on 7th March received a letter refusing the request (stating textbook business reasons). An appeal letter was sent on 20th March giving a legitimate challenge for each reason plus additional points such as the company's well publicised news on being a fair employer who supports flexible working.

On 4th April 2 letters were received, 1 from the business manager asking what her 'intentions pending appeal' were regarding coming back to work and another letter from the district manager saying that he had received her flexible working request and would arrange a meeting within 20 working days to discuss her request ! (Obviously a lack of communication despite both letters being signed by the same person)
Both letters were replied to the same day - the one to the District Manager requesting clarification as to whether he meant 'application' or 'appeal' as he had stated 20 days and also querying the allowance of a work colleague or Union Representative accompanying her to the meeting as the Company had publicly de-recognised Unite and have no affiliation or workers union.

No replies from either Managers until yesterday 29/04 - (though dated 25/04) a letter arrived from the District Manager stating that he had received her appeal against the refusal on 25th March (by my reckoning he is somewhat over the 14 day guideline) and would like to meet to discuss the appeal TOMORROW !! (today) not at her place of work but at another of the company's properties 1/2 an hour away, stating that she is entitled to be accompanied by a work colleague or trade union representative who works for the organisation (remembering that the Company is well known for not recognising trade unions and do not have any affiliation to one but he had obviously read the queries sent to him regarding union reps)

Needless to say that both the District Manager & the Business Manager were telephoned immediately to be told that there was no way at such short notice she could attend the meeting, only to be told that the reason for the short notice was that they were both going on annual leave as from the end of this week !!!

The main questions I really could do with some help on are ..... time-scale: they have obviously broken time limits - what can be done (if anything about this)
She has no work colleagues who are willing to get involved and obviously no union rep so therefore no-one to accompany her to a meeting and I know for a fact that they will rip her to shreds if she is on her own so is there any legislation/guidelines on someone else being allowed to accompany her ?

For a large national company/organisation they just don't seem to know what the right hand is doing while the left dances to it's own tune, so any help and/or advice on which way to go now would be very much appreciated

p.s. She has already spoken to the CAB who sadly couldn't be of any help

 

[Chris Ashdown]

How about talking to ACAS

 

[sjbeale]

Potentially she could claim indirect sex discrimination in an employment tribunal There is caselaw emerging where employers have been challenged in their refusal to allow flexible working. The timescales of the flexible working legislation are legally required. The company does not have to recognise a trade union to allow someone to be accompanied by an external union rep.

It might be a good idea to lodge a grievance about the situation as a first step and hope it is dealt with quickly.

She could talk to ACAS about the situation or alternatively I would be happy to give some advice.

 

[TotallySport]

If she is supposed to be working during the time of the meeting, why couldn't she attend?

the offer of having someone there is proceedure, and even union reps etc aren't allowed to do anything except take notes.

Sounds like you have just prolonged the procedure even longer.

how many other people are working flexi time? and can we ask what the job is and why they refused?

 

[pen2670]

If she is supposed to be working during the time of the meeting, why couldn't she attend?

the offer of having someone there is proceedure, and even union reps etc aren't allowed to do anything except take notes.

Sounds like you have just prolonged the procedure even longer.

how many other people are working flexi time? and can we ask what the job is and why they refused?

Just what I was thinking...

Out of curiosity could she genuinely not go or were you both too aggrieved at the shortness of the notice?

Did you re-arrange whilst on the phone to them - you said they were on annual leave after this week so maybe they could see her another day this week?

Are you able to take it down a notch or two and tell them she feels vulnerable on her own so would they allow you to attend? As pp said this would need to be in the background, not answering for her. Or alternatively could she ask to record the meeting so if she feels "ripped to shreds" she can easily take it further.

Just some thoughts...

 

[MsB]

In reply to Pen2670 & TotallySport - the meeting was not at her place of work it was over 1/2 hour away and was genuinely unable to go as she couldn't sort childcare at the last minute (plus she is on annual leave) - the meeting was arranged in a rush due to time-scales (they have broken the 14 day rule plus the manager was going on leave) - we are not trying to draw anything out & the sooner things are sorted the better as far as we are concerned. She could have just walked away and got another job but she is not the first person to work for the organisation to return from maternity to be refused, the others have walked away but we feel that a stand needs to be taken.

Her job is as a 'deputy chef manager' to give it the proper title, when she first applied for the job as a kitchen assistant it was on flexitime as a job share (1 at 16hrs & 1 at 24hrs) she went for the 16hrs but was talked into doing the 24hrs, they never filled the 16hr slot and she went to 32hrs as time progressed which has always been on a flexitime basis & she has requested to do 16-24 hours again over 2 or 3 set days. The company/organisation actually promotes flexible working in it's literature and employees are given a handbook on it with their contracts.

The 4 'business' reasons they gave for refusal were as below:
"We would not be able to reorganise work among existing employees"
"We would not be able to recruit extra employees"
"It would affect the quality of the service"
"There is not enough work during the hours you have asked to change to"
All of the above were legitimately & reasonably challenged giving good reasoning for appeal.

I have spoken to ACAS and now have a few clarifications:
Firstly they can not state that only a union rep who works for the company can attend - any union rep can (she can request to have an external person but it is more than likely that they will refuse this request (ACAS's words not mine))
Secondly it is unreasonable for them to request that the appeal meeting is at another place 1/2 hour away and not at her place of work especially considering each letter has come from her place of work so she can request that it is held at her place of work.
Thirdly due to the time-scale of receiving her appeal letter and the letter received arranging the meeting they have broken the 14 day time limit.

At the moment I have arranged to give all of the paperwork (inc. contracts etc) to a HR Consultant who is going to go through it all and help with the next move forward

 

[TotallySport]

In reply to Pen2670 & TotallySport - the meeting was not at her place of work it was over 1/2 hour away and was genuinely unable to go as she couldn't sort childcare at the last minute (plus she is on annual leave) - the meeting was arranged in a rush due to time-scales (they have broken the 14 day rule plus the manager was going on leave) - we are not trying to draw anything out & the sooner things are sorted the better as far as we are concerned. She could have just walked away and got another job but she is not the first person to work for the organisation to return from maternity to be refused, the others have walked away but we feel that a stand needs to be taken.

Her job is as a 'deputy chef manager' to give it the proper title, when she first applied for the job as a kitchen assistant it was on flexitime as a job share (1 at 16hrs & 1 at 24hrs) she went for the 16hrs but was talked into doing the 24hrs, they never filled the 16hr slot and she went to 32hrs as time progressed which has always been on a flexitime basis & she has requested to do 16-24 hours again over 2 or 3 set days. The company/organisation actually promotes flexible working in it's literature and employees are given a handbook on it with their contracts.

The 4 'business' reasons they gave for refusal were as below:
"We would not be able to reorganise work among existing employees"
"We would not be able to recruit extra employees"
"It would affect the quality of the service"
"There is not enough work during the hours you have asked to change to"
All of the above were legitimately & reasonably challenged giving good reasoning for appeal.

I have spoken to ACAS and now have a few clarifications:
Firstly they can not state that only a union rep who works for the company can attend - any union rep can (she can request to have an external person but it is more than likely that they will refuse this request (ACAS's words not mine))
Secondly it is unreasonable for them to request that the appeal meeting is at another place 1/2 hour away and not at her place of work especially considering each letter has come from her place of work so she can request that it is held at her place of work.
Thirdly due to the time-scale of receiving her appeal letter and the letter received arranging the meeting they have broken the 14 day time limit.

At the moment I have arranged to give all of the paperwork (inc. contracts etc) to a HR Consultant who is going to go through it all and help with the next move forward

according to your OP, the company stated they could bring a fellow member of staff or a union rep, not just a union rep, did you mention that the acas? its not normal for just anyone to attend, especially family members as they can get emotional.

Out of interest when you rang them to say you couldn't attend, how did they respond, and whats happening now?

 

[MsB]

according to your OP, the company stated they could bring a fellow member of staff or a union rep, not just a union rep, did you mention that the acas? its not normal for just anyone to attend, especially family members as they can get emotional.

Out of interest when you rang them to say you couldn't attend, how did they respond, and whats happening now?

Hi, yes I did mention that to Acas, the company first stated that it could be a fellow staff member or a union rep, then when questioned on the union rep attendance the next letter stated that it had to be fellow worker or a union rep who worked for the organisation. (sorry probably me confusing things)
Acas said they weren't allowed to insist that the rep had to work for the company and also that it was unreasonable (although the co-worker would be paid) to expect them to travel to another premises. Acas said that she could request another person (rather than worker or rep) attend but they could refuse it, as is their right.

To be honest when I spoke to her business manager (I left a message for the district manager) to say she was unable to attend (& why) she was absolutely fine and said that as far as she knew the reason for the rushed meeting was due to the district manager going off on leave a couple of days after.

The latest is... we have a date of the 17th May for the next meeting, the HR Consultant we are talking to is going to request that the meeting be held at the premises where my daughter works rather than the other site and also whether they will allow her to attend the meeting with her.

 

[TotallySport]

Hi, yes I did mention that to Acas, the company first stated that it could be a fellow staff member or a union rep, then when questioned on the union rep attendance the next letter stated that it had to be fellow worker or a union rep who worked for the organisation. (sorry probably me confusing things)
Acas said they weren't allowed to insist that the rep had to work for the company and also that it was unreasonable (although the co-worker would be paid) to expect them to travel to another premises. Acas said that she could request another person (rather than worker or rep) attend but they could refuse it, as is their right.

To be honest when I spoke to her business manager (I left a message for the district manager) to say she was unable to attend (& why) she was absolutely fine and said that as far as she knew the reason for the rushed meeting was due to the district manager going off on leave a couple of days after.

The latest is... we have a date of the 17th May for the next meeting, the HR Consultant we are talking to is going to request that the meeting be held at the premises where my daughter works rather than the other site and also whether they will allow her to attend the meeting with her.

Thanks for the update, TBH the company does seem to be playing far, and trying to make an effort.

I hope you get it sorted soon.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

So they turned her down for flexi work and asked to have a meeting 30 mins away in another office

Sorry this is getting silly she cannot travel for 30 min in working time and getting paid and giving the company the bill to get there

What exactly are you hopeing will happen at the meeting?

Is she presently at work doing here normal hours or still on maternity leave?

 

[MsB]

So they turned her down for flexi work and asked to have a meeting 30 mins away in another office

Sorry this is getting silly she cannot travel for 30 min in working time and getting paid and giving the company the bill to get there

What exactly are you hopeing will happen at the meeting?

Is she presently at work doing here normal hours or still on maternity leave?

Sorry Chris but why should she have to travel to another premises ? All letters have come addressed from one premises and the district manager covers the property. Both Acas & the HR Consultant have agreed that she shouldn't have to travel just because it's convenient for the district manager.

We are hoping that they will either accept her request or at least offer her another position on the same terms (as said previously this is being done not only for her but for future employees as it's too late for the ones who have already been cast aside following requests post maternity by the company)

At present she is on annual leave using up her days owed from last year as agreed with her business manager whilst the appeal is ongoing.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Could it also be that all records and the HR department are at the other office or some other reason, so the records could be available if required or more senior people again if required

Very nobel looking after new comers but basically nothing to do with the case.

Sounds like your looking for a fight rather than a solution, and whilst some jobs can be shared etc it does come at a large cost to most companies in training, holidays, days off sick etc where somebody has to sort it out with twice the workload rather than one individual

 

[MsB]

No, they want the meeting held there purely for the convenience of the district manager

Ahh the joys of sarcasm - it is relevant to the case - it is her right to be offered another position if hers is no longer viably tenable (rather than the feeble text book excuses that were given). The organisation has in excess of 10,000 employees, she is a small fish in a big pond and if she can come out of this still having a job then it will give hope to other's that it is possible to not be not to be in the increasing 1 in 7 who return from work after maternity to find that they no longer have a position.

A quick solution is preferable (as she is as such is in limbo at the moment) I fully understand the logistics of job sharing etc from the employers position but it is the case that there are a number of 'bank' staff who do irregular hours/days to fill in who are already trained (in fact my daughter has trained a number of them) but the organisation do not seem to be willing to look at this possibility or talk to the other staff (including her immediate manager) to find out whether they think it is a viable option or not

 

[TotallySport]

Sorry but from your OP, you said your daughter requested a job change, not that the job was no longer available, so are you saying her current job isn't available at all, or she no longer wants to continue with her old job in the same way?

 

[MsB]

Sorry but from your OP, you said your daughter requested a job change, not that the job was no longer available, so are you saying her current job isn't available at all, or she no longer wants to continue with her old job in the same way?

Sorry - she requested flexible working hours ;-) She loves her job so wants to continue but on less hours (due to childcare etc)

I think I confused things by throwing in about offering her another position etc

 

[ethical PR]

Chris the OP stated that she was on annual leave and couldn't attend at short notice as she couldn't arrange childcare cover. That's not an unreasonable I think.

 

[lesliedocherty]

this is why we just bin CV's from woman, men only

 

[MsB]

this is why we just bin CV's from woman, men only

And comments like that reveal why after creating man God said
"I can do so much better"