Refund Advice + Timeframe

[brothwell]

Hi,

I run a small clothing company that specialises in bespoke sportswear for the UK University/Schools/Sprots Clubs market.

Recently we had a fairly large order for some items, and processed the order as normal. Our T+C state that delivery normally takes 6 weeks 'wherever possible' i.e. there are no guarantees. Our supplier in this instance was based in Pakistan and as such celebrated Ramadan over the last month, and so our delivery has been pushed back about 4 weeks.

So now, 10 weeks after order (with delivery due imminently) the client has requested a full refund (and has threatened indeed to take us to court. What are our rights in regards to this, I would have thought our T+C indemnify us against this claim due to the fact that the stated delivery time is only on a 'wherever possible' basis and Ramadan is a reasonable cause for a delay.

As an aside, the client has paid 50% deposit but has not yet paid the 50% remaining amount, which it is quite explicitly stated in our contract needs to be paid before delivery - this I would suspect would hold up in a court.

If it looks like we have to give a refund, would I be right in thinking we have 28 days in which to give a refund ... i.e. we are under no obligation to 'fast track' the refund request, rather let it follow our standard accounting process.

 

[Antonia @limeone.com]

It is impossible to advise you on this without seeing your terms and conditions. You mention no guarantees but is this clear in your terms in outlining your responsibilities to the client? It may be, if your terms are well drafted that you do not have to provide a refund and can demand the additional 50% to complete the order.

That can be done in legal terms if the terms are secure in the drafting. However from a customer service viewpoint the needs and concerns of this client need to be taken into account and if mention was made of say a need for these items promptly then this would need to be taken into account.

 

[brothwell]

Relevant bits...

3 PRICE AND PAYMENT

3.1 The price of the Goods shall be that stipulated in the Seller's current List Price/on the
Seller's website/as contained in the Seller's Quotation (as applicable) at the date of order
or as agreed between the parties. The price is inclusive of VAT and exclusive of any delivery
charges.

3.2 Payment of the total purchase price (including VAT and any delivery charges) must be
made in full before dispatch of the Goods.
3.3 A deposit of 50% must be paid upon acceptance of the order.

4 DELIVERY

4.1 Delivery of the Goods shall be made by the Seller notifying the Buyer that the Goods are
available for collection at the Seller's premises or for delivery to such place and on such
terms as agreed between the Seller and the Buyer at the time the order is placed.

4.2 All Goods, wherever possible, will be delivered within 6 weeks of the order being placed
and the Buyer shall make all arrangements necessary to take delivery of the Goods whenever
they are tendered for delivery.

4.3 The Seller shall use its reasonable endeavours to meet any date stated for delivery. In
any event time of delivery shall not be of the essence and the Seller shall not be liable for
any losses, costs, damages or expenses incurred by the Buyer or any third party arising
directly or indirectly out of any failure to meet any estimated delivery date.

4.4 Some Goods may not be in stock at the time the order is placed. In the event that the
Seller is unable to deliver the Goods within the time specified in Clause 4.2, the Seller will
contact the Buyer to advise of the situation and the Buyer shall be entitled to cancel the
order and receive a full refund or agree a later delivery date.

4.5 Title and risk in the Goods shall pass to the Buyer upon delivery of the Goods.

8.2 The Seller shall not be liable under any circumstances to the Buyer or any third party for
any indirect or consequential loss of profit, consequential or other economic loss suffered
by the Buyer howsoever caused, as a result of any negligence, breach of contract,
misrepresentation or otherwise.

9 FORCE MAJEURE

Neither party shall be liable for any delay or failure to perform any of its obligations if the
delay or failure results from events or circumstances outside its reasonable control, including
but not limited to acts of God, strikes, lock outs , accidents, war, fire, breakdown of plant or
machinery or shortage or unavailability of raw materials from a natural source of supply, and
the party shall be entitled to a reasonable extension of its obligations.

 

[Antonia @limeone.com]

Ok So 4.4 allows a cancellation but makes no reference to time frame of the refund. Presumably you have a clear written request for a refund? As your terms are silent as to length of time required then it is a question of what is reasonable. Given a refund has to be given I would say in the case of a consumer 7 days refund time is reasonable, in a business then 30 days would be considered reasonable.

 

[brothwell]

Its a business that has purchased the goods (well a sports club) so 30 days.

We dont have a written request as yet, just a verbal request.

Is cancellation terms different because the goods are bespoke? Should we amend our T+C to reflect this so we dont come across this in the future.

 

[Antonia @limeone.com]

You should have a clear written request to cancel the order and as the terms do not cover bespoke items and are vague from your viewpoint on refund times they should be reviewed and updated to reflect this problem.

Email them to us and we will quote for the review and rewrite.

 

[brothwell]

Thanks, I will do

 

[steve23]

Hi,

Ok - first off, lets make it clear im not a lawyer or what have you, and im just talking from a laymans point of view, but.....

If I was the customer, I would feel I had a good case to cancel if i still did not have my goods after 10 weeks.

Lets look at the terms and conditions:

As said, they are kinda vague on the time thing, and 7 to 8 weeks might be acceptable, but 10 weeks is missing the 6 week target by some margin.

Ok, thinking legal. It would appear that condition 4.2 protects you.

But...

Reading 4.4 it clearly states that if you cant make the time specified in 4.2 then you'll let me know and I can cancel.

Whilst it may be surrounded by terms such as 'wherever possible' the only time stated in 4.2 is 6 weeks - its pretty clear - 6 weeks.

And I would ask, if you dont feel 4.4 relates to the time period of 6 weeks, then what time period would it relate to?

Also, you knew about the delay Ramadan would cause, why not inform the customer?

Again surely your in the wrong against clause 4.4?

Please realise im trying to help here, and not knock you in any way - this is a really interesting situation and maybe some real qualfiied persons could comment.

Fingers crossed im wrong and way off the mark!

All the best

Steve

 

[Cred-X]

I'm afraid that I would have to agree with Steve on this.
Your terms do give the impression of delivery within 6 weeks regardless of the location the goods are made, otherwise a customer may cancel.
If the customer did not know about or agree to a 10 week delivery time then you shouldn't expect them to just accept such a long delay. If I order then I don't care where the goods come from, I just expect them to be delivered on the promised date at the promised price and in the promised condition. If a supplier cannot supply for what ever reason then they have to tell me at the time I place the order, allowing me to then decide whether to continue with the order or not.

As a matter of interest, why has the customer cancelled? Has it passed a deadline that was important to them? Will the goods now be useless to them? eg - was it for a particular event?

 

[INDIZINE]

Another point - if they have to pay the remaining 50% before delivery, and they were (it would seem) expecting their order by week 6, why have they not paid this other 50% before now? Surely by week 5 you would have been chasing them knowing week 6 was upon you...or did you know by week 5 that you would not delivery by week 6 and at that point you contacted them, explained it would be 4 weeks late and they agreed to wait? Was there any communication when you reached the point at which your T & C truly kick in?

I would change the T & C (through a lawyer) and have a non refundable deposit for any bespoke costs if possible, and perhaps extend the delivery times. However that said, 2 wk, 6wk whatever, at the point you know its going to be late, its fair to contact the customer and agree a way forward to avoid resorting to the T & C and retain your customer.

It would not seem unreasonable to request a refund after being so late unless they knew about it and agreed to wait when you informed them BEFORE week 6. I think the fact Ramadan caused a delay is irrelevant, as anything can cause a delay. Ramadan is known to happen each year with dates set well in advance, many other things are unknown, so I doubt if that would stand up as the reason for delay after the order was placed.

 

I would have to aqree with posts 8-9
your terms though pretty vague do give indication of how long a delivery will take but 4.4 is quite clear that you would contact whereby the buyer could either cancel/get refund or agree to a later date.

post 10 The balance remaining payable (50%) would have been payable before despach there is no term for payment strictly before week 6. but yes, there should have been contact, although I would have thought the seller would be obliged to do this as soon as they realised the 6 week delivery period could not be met.

 

[INDIZINE]

".....As an aside, the client has paid 50% deposit but has not yet paid the 50% remaining amount, which it is quite explicitly stated in our contract needs to be paid before delivery - this I would suspect would hold up in a court."


He does say here that the balance should be paid before delivery (which is stated to be within 6 weeks).

 

In the event that the Seller is unable to deliver the Goods within the time specified in Clause 4.2, the Seller will contact the Buyer to advise of the situation and the Buyer shall be entitled to cancel the order and receive a full refund or agree a later delivery date.

Very explicit, the goods could not be provided within the timescale, there should have been contact from the seller when it was known the date could not be met.

I think this would stand up in court.
If a test of reasonableness was applied with the t&c's as are I feel the paying in full before 6 weeks you mentioned would possibly fail, it states before dispach/delivery but there is a 'whenever possible' which brings in vagueness. as the goods were not in stock, hence they could not be dispached, this would surely mean that no final payment would be due. (I am assuming of course that no contact has taken place before the 6 week)

The T&C's are not explicit enough and as previous postings, they need to be clearer espescially if supplying bespoke goods.

 

[brothwell]

Thanks for your advice. We have advised the client of our willingness to provide a refund, as we felt that this was right anyway. The client will wait until the end of this week for the goods to arrive before persuing a refund.

He is claiming that he is entitled to some form of compensation. We have given him the goods at a discounted price due to the lateness (indeed we have given him 50% off) - I cant imagine we are liable for anything elsE?

 

[GeorgeM]

Customers don't like surprises generally.

So for the future, if you are aware that there might be a delay when an order is placed then I would always recommend letting the customer know immediately.

There's a risk that you may lose that order if the production time is too long, but you may also be able to gain customer agreement to the delay without the need to give a discount. The customer will appreciate your honesty and hopefully put more business your way.

If the discussion starts to focus on T&Cs, then you've lost the relationship with the customer, which should always take top priority.

Regards

 

[Antonia @limeone.com]

Just make sure the discounted cost is accepted in full and final settlement on this one. Due to the terms being vague in one area I make an assumption that there is no limit set on damages in another area. Probably time to get them tighter now this problem and the time it takes to resolve has raised its head.

 

[Cred-X]

Brothwell,

Good for you. I think you have responded really well to the problem.

 

[.Spiralling.]

just out of interest, why would the fact that it was Ramadan mean the goods were late? Ramadan is a month long (one full cycle of the moon) festival of fasting during day light hours, but normal work carries on during this month.

Incidentally, Ramadan is the name of the month during which the festival takes place, and it moves forward in our calendar each year as it is set by the moon. Ramadan finished this year on October 11th.