Racial Differences in Job Applications

[Draugen]

A slightly tricky topic perhaps...

First and foremost, I feel I should point out that I do not seek to employ any specific race nor exclude any. However, I run a business which has a site located in a predominantly Asian area, where I have a huge number of Asian (primarily of Pakistani origin) job applicants. On the whole, the Asian/White split of my applicants is roughly 70/30, however, I employ almost an entirely white staff based upon the strongest applicants.

What I find, is that the majority of Asian applicants do not make an effort on their application forms. Work experience, education and references are frequently left blank, as are the "other skills" and "interests" sections. Naturally, if someone doesn't give me a reason to interview them, they never get a call, however I then find that these are the people who persistently question why they did not get the job.

This isn't to say I only get wonderful applications from white people, or any other ethnic group for that matter, far from it! It does concern me however that I very rarely see a worthy application from the huge number of applications I receive from Asian people.

This all sounds very non-PC I know, but it is niggling at me and I just wondered if anyone else has experienced anything similar?

 

[swbcanning]

oooh this is always a difficult subject to discuss without coming across as the "r" word which no one on here is at all. As far I see it if it just so happens that the strongest applicants of of one particular ethnic group be it white or asian then that is the applicant you choose. As long as you are only going by the strength of the candidate and nothing else as I am sure you are there is no problem. Though I can see where your frustration and fears lie. Hvae you considered conatcting some of these unsuccessful applicants and asking them for the missing detais. I know this could be seen as going out of your way it could help bring a better level of proportional represenation to your business. You could also contact the local working group or association for that particular ethnic group and explain your concerns.

Hope this helps.

 

[safia]

Having filled a number of applications in the past, and one fairly recently, I have to ask how simple your application form is? A number of forms are incredibly complicated. A large number of application forms seem very complicated at first glance and can be very daunting, particularly if English is not your first language, examples may help. Would you be able to place an example of how you wish the form to be completed on your website and direct applicants to it.
Safia

 

[Draugen]

Thanks for the responses.

To be honest, the application form is as simple as they come. Literally, your personal details, your education, work experience, other skills, interests and references. Without wishing to sound harsh (or even racist), if someone is unable to understand this they are not suitable for the job.

I'm not after rocket scientists, these are minimum wage jobs, but despite being in the minority, it is the white applicants who make the effort to ensure they get the job.

 

[swbcanning]

... A large number of application forms seem very complicated at first glance and can be very daunting, particularly if English is not your first language ...
Safia

Excellent point Safia.

I have just been thinking and as far as i'm aware (feel free to correct me if i';m wrong any legal experts on UKBF) but you don't need to put the race on your application form. You could not have that as an option and instead wait until they come for an interview and have them fill it in then.

Regards.

 

[swbcanning]

Thanks for the responses.

To be honest, the application form is as simple as they come. Literally, your personal details, your education, work experience, other skills, interests and references. Without wishing to sound harsh (or even racist), if someone is unable to understand this they are not suitable for the job.

I'm not after rocket scientists, these are minimum wage jobs, but despite being in the minority, it is the white applicants who make the effort to ensure they get the job.

(Sorry for the double post but edits gone on this and you posted whilst i was typing )

Well if this is the case then I don't think you have anything at all to worry about.

 

[Draugen]

you don't need to put the race on your application form. You could not have that as an option and instead wait until they come for an interview and have them fill it in then.

I actually don't ask applicants to state their race, however it is usually obvious from the name and also (if they fill it out) their education, work or other skills. Of course there is an element of assumption here, but one that is usually correct.

 

[swbcanning]

I actually don't ask applicants to state their race, however it is usually obvious from the name and also (if they fill it out) their education, work or other skills. Of course there is an element of assumption here, but one that is usually correct.

I know where you coming from here and think its just an unavoidable situation.

 

[Draugen]

It does seem that way, thanks for the replies!

It is something very awkward that I wish I didn't have to contend with, but I am confident I employ the right people, regardless of race. It just does baffle me why such a high percentage of one ethnic group submit such poor applications. :|

 

[Zeno]

I am curious as to why you deem interests important on the application?

(Apologies that this has little to do with your original post)

 

[sandralewis]

It might be to do with culture as well. In Germany for example, the CV is very short until you have more experience and after that it becomes huge, with large detailed sections and references from all employers. In the UK our CV tends to be pretty large as well. Maybe the Asian culture requires that schooling etc does not need to be the main focus on a CV. Maybe you could run a class for one night in the community giving advice about how to write a good CV, one which would give people the best chance of an interview. Word might spread and the applications might be become better?!

 

[swbcanning]

It does seem that way, thanks for the replies!

It is something very awkward that I wish I didn't have to contend with, but I am confident I employ the right people, regardless of race. It just does baffle me why such a high percentage of one ethnic group submit such poor applications. :|

It is very puzzling and I wonder if anyone else encouters thi? Would be interesting for us to learn more about this.

 

[swbcanning]

I am curious as to why you deem interests important on the application?

(Apologies that this has little to do with your original post)

I belive interests is key on a application as it helps you to build a picture of the type of person you are dealing with.

Regards.

 

[swbcanning]

It might be to do with culture as well. In Germany for example, the CV is very short until you have more experience and after that it becomes huge, with large detailed sections and references from all employers. In the UK our CV tends to be pretty large as well. Maybe the Asian culture requires that schooling etc does not need to be the main focus on a CV. Maybe you could run a class for one night in the community giving advice about how to write a good CV, one which would give people the best chance of an interview. Word might spread and the applications might be become better?!

WOW!

What an idea!

 

[BootCamp]

I am white, but I refuse to fill in any form of racial profiling. I do not understand what the benefits to it are unless it is to discriminate.

 

[Zeno]

I am white, but I refuse to fill in any form of racial profiling. I do not understand what the benefits to it are unless it is to discriminate.

Good point. I might see about changing my name to Ahmed O'Reilly Chang-Goldberg. Let's see the b*stards profile me then!

 

[stevon]

As long as you can justify why you've hired whites instead of Asians (ie. keep the application forms) you'll be legally sound. If an Asian applicant complains that you only hire whites and goes so far as to take you to court then all you'll have to do is slap across the application forms and it'll be thrown out.

Positive discrimination is as illegal as any other type. Don't just hire an Asian because you want to be seen to be PC - hire the strongest applicants (which you say you've been doing) and you'll be sound. At the end of the day, you can always give a reason for hiring one person over another - experience, education, personality, etc. Just make sure it's job related if you ever get pulled up.

I employ 6 people, who are all Nigerian bar one. I didn't hire the Nigerians because I wanted big black bruisers (although they are and other companies do) but because they sent the best CVs in, turned up to the interview on time, kept in touch with me throughout the whole process and I felt they were the best people for the job. I've had another two members of staff; one of them, a White/Welsh female, quit after the first night (she couldn't sell, so made minimum wage when the rest took home £10+ an hour, basically) and the other was White/English and a thief (see my thread for the story). I wouldn't hesitate hiring a Welsh or an English person again - I hire who I think will fit the job best and that's the way it should be. I don't care if they're white, black, yellow or purple. If anyone ever questions me about 85% of my staff being black, I'll show them the CVs, application forms and recall they were the best applicants - do the same.

Out of curiosity - what would you say your customer base is? Always advisable for your staff to reflect them, supposidly.

 

[sm1]

I actually don't ask applicants to state their race, however it is usually obvious from the name and also (if they fill it out) their education, work or other skills. Of course there is an element of assumption here, but one that is usually correct.

I know that you say usually, but it can often be the case from the name you can be mistaken. I know that if you certainly go by my first name you won't guess ethnic origin. Also, my interests and personality go in the opposite direction to the 'schema'.

(Always one that has to be difficult )

 

[cmcp]

I haven't got a sign on the door that says 'white people only'.

I don't care if you're black, brown, yellow...

...Orientals make very good workers.

David Brent, 2001

 

[seasonsonline]

I actually don't ask applicants to state their race, however it is usually obvious from the name and also (if they fill it out) their education, work or other skills. Of course there is an element of assumption here, but one that is usually correct.

I don't really understand why you are making a big point on this issue, but I have an idea that might help you with dealing with your conscience.

You could assign a highly trusted member of your business with the job of simply checking all application forms, before you even ever see them.- You could pre-determine which notes you would like making about the applications and which notes you would like excluded. I.e, notes could simply be based on the relevant attributes required for the job, and don't need to include names, age etc. This way, when your trusted member passes you the applicants details you have the information that really matters!

 

[billie1]

It may be the sector you're in. When I worked in recruitment I found that the higher quality CV's were from Asian candidates. But then the sectors were in banking, law firms, insurance etc. They were the ones who had the degrees in Business, Law, Accounts, Economics etc.

It may also be down to where you advertise.

 

[deniser]

This is an interesting thread.

If these are minimum wage jobs and the Asian applicants are not born in this country then they may have difficulty with the application form. Is writing English necessary for the job? If not, then why not dispense with the written form and give the applicants a basic telephone interview instead?

My husband (born overseas) who has lived here for over 20 years finds writing English difficult - he is not used to the letters as his language has different characters.

In fact he never writes anything, I have always filled in all necessary forms. I think he would struggle with an application form. He speaks English fluently though, is very intelligent, a hard worker and would make a great candidate for any job that didn't involve writing English. He has always run his own businesses so it's never been a problem but it would be if he had to find a job.

 

[Zeno]

I am not an expert in this, but some bleeding heart ambulance chaser might be able to make an indirect discrimination case out of this.

It seems to me that you are being perfectly fair however thats not what counts these days.

 

[Mister B]

FWIW, as far as I can see you're not discriminating at all. I also see no reason at all why you should a) Ask as to why certain sections of the application form were not filled out and b) Why you should allow telephone interviews/applications. Surely, you need to do what's best for your business.

Before I get shot down, I appreciate that there are issues with racial integration in the marketplace, primarily because of the valid points such as those that Deniser makes. However, I don't think that it's something which local businessmen should be looking to resolve, more of a local government/community issue.

Just my thoughts.

Mister B

 

[safia]

I take it that litigation is not the only factor concerning you. You are looking for reasons why you are not getting the required applicants from certain ethnic minorities. There have been loads of good points made about communication difficulties. I think that and cultural issues may be the key here. Do you have the time to research this using your previous applicants?
Safia