Quick question about gas work

[Lee Jones Jnr]

Is it a legal requirement for someone to provide a gas safety certificate on any work they do?

 

[Lee Jones Jnr]

Someone...?
Anyone....?

 

[Stuart Walker]

it is not a requirement to provide a cert for a general customer, however as the last engineer on site you have to be happy that the install is sound when you leave, this is simply done buy a pressure test, we always provide certification on the appliance we have worked on and the supply system, but not to any other item within the property unless requested(chargeable), with a rented property it should always be done as the landlord has a duty of care, but some people think differently

 

[skyhi2]

Not unless you have requested one.

Skyhi2.

 

[G. Lasagne]

The only legal requirement for a gas safety check is for rented properties which must be done annualy, of which the landlord is responsible.
Normal gas work does not require a gas safety check but can be done at an extra cost.

Can i ask why?

 

[Lee Jones Jnr]

You can ask why!

I have just had a little bit of work done on a house I am renovating and my usual engineer wasn't able to come until next week, but as I am trying to get on pretty quickly I just got someone else to come and do it. It seemed odd to me that he wanted to charge me extra to certify his work as safe as nobody has ever done so before, they have just issues a certificate as if it were standard practice.

 

[Bri]

I'm in a different industry, I understand your engineers point of view,he's covering himself and his work, quite why he wants to charge you for the cert is beyond me as he would be required to carry out checks to make sure its a) safe to work on in the first place b) with gas, safe to walk away from after the work.

After the work we do we provide documentation that gets you to sign after you've witnessed that we have left the system as we have described and that you are happy.Its a bit more involved than that, I've just paraphrased it for you.

 

[Lee Jones Jnr]

I'm in a different industry, I understand your engineers point of view,he's covering himself and his work, quite why he wants to charge you for the cert is beyond me as he would be required to carry out checks to make sure its a) safe to work on in the first place b) with gas, safe to walk away from after the work.

After the work we do we provide documentation that gets you to sign after you've witnessed that we have left the system as we have described and that you are happy.Its a bit more involved than that, I've just paraphrased it for you.

So surely you don't understand the engineers point of view...?

 

[Bri]

So surely you don't understand the engineers point of view...?

....trying to say in that comment. Yes I dont understand why he wants to charge you extra for something he should be doing as rote on any job he's done or doing.It should be included in the price.

 

[saxondale]

....trying to say in that comment. Yes I dont understand why he wants to charge you extra for something he should be doing as rote on any job he's done or doing.It should be included in the price.

included but not for free ........................... obviously someone has asked for a breakdown of costs

 

[G. Lasagne]

....trying to say in that comment. Yes I dont understand why he wants to charge you extra for something he should be doing as rote on any job he's done or doing.It should be included in the price.

No it shouldnt, the ONLY time a gas safety check has to be done is when a landlord rents out a property and requires a gas safety check, i never ever do one with an install, i fill out the LEGALLY REQUIRED comissioning sheet at the back of the MI.

No engineer has to carry out a safety check unless:
A paid to do so and B when carrying out an inspection of a landlords property, no other circumstance requires one, regardless of what you may think or what your last plumber done.

 

[Bri]

here we go again....Its simple rule one is it safe for me to work on, has everything that needs to be isolated been done so. Anyone who has worked on a permit site will know these checks, transfer them to what youre doing. Oh and by the way its an extra £25.00 for me to give you the necessary paperwork. Steve, your Nacoss the call forms you have to fill in and give to the client surely youre not telling me you charge them for it.I sincerely wouldnt have thought so.

Now its a different matter if that person was called in to purely certify a system, yes there is a specific charge.

Lets be honest, how many times do you and me included inspect the whole system as laid down in BS after an activation, its just not practical, but we cover ourselves by issuing certificates of testing the area in question and sign it.

 

[SST]

I part ex'd my house against a new build and had to have a full gas safety check done and get a certificate before the house builder would agree to the part ex. The gas engineer was a family member and did it for nothing, but his company do charge, if its just a check and certificate issue they have a set charge, if its part of say an install or repair and the customer wants one they still charge a small fee ontop of the install or repair cost, but its all factored into the job as one fee for the lot, if that makes sense.

 

[Bri]

No it shouldnt, the ONLY time a gas safety check has to be done is when a landlord rents out a property and requires a gas safety check, i never ever do one with an install, i fill out the LEGALLY REQUIRED comissioning sheet at the back of the MI.

No engineer has to carry out a safety check unless:
A paid to do so and B when carrying out an inspection of a landlords property, no other circumstance requires one, regardless of what you may think or what your last plumber done.

...and agree with what you say. However, and I now feel I need to reread the OP as I may have interpreted it incorrectly, but do you not as an engineer after every job you do you leave a company headed document saying what you have completed and system is safe?

 

[saxondale]

here we go again....Its simple rule one is it safe for me to work on, has everything that needs to be isolated been done so. Anyone who has worked on a permit site will know these checks, transfer them to what youre doing. Oh and by the way its an extra £25.00 for me to give you the necessary paperwork. Steve, your Nacoss the call forms you have to fill in and give to the client surely youre not telling me you charge them for it.I sincerely wouldnt have thought so.

Now its a different matter if that person was called in to purely certify a system, yes there is a specific charge.

Lets be honest, how many times do you and me included inspect the whole system as laid down in BS after an activation, its just not practical, but we cover ourselves by issuing certificates of testing the area in question and sign it.

seems your confusing a certificate and a work docket ...............

 

[G. Lasagne]

...and agree with what you say. However, and I now feel I need to reread the OP as I may have interpreted it incorrectly, but do you not as an engineer after every job you do you leave a company headed document saying what you have completed and system is safe?

Your confusion your industry with mine, just because you do things a certain way does not mean that other industries do, our registration with gas safe cover customers no documents are needed.

This is for the majority of HEATING companies if not all, please do not tell me the way you think it should be done as thats what you do, your not a heating engineer

boiler/heating repair - no certificate
install - no certificate
servicing - no certificate (if any a service certfificate or service card)
flushing/radiator/pipework - no certificate

wait for it...................

landlord inspection - certificate

no buts, no "well thats not how we do it", no "its bad practice"

Thats the way it is, thats the rules, thats the score.

So if you want a certificate for anythig other than a landlord inspection then expect to pay

 

[Bri]

seems your confusing a certificate and a work docket ...............

...but I have always called them a certificate.My work dockets(sic) state British Standard clauses for relevant parts and we have to qualify each part before we leave site.

Seems we all have different phrases for what paperwork we provide Steve.I always work from the covering thine arse school.

 

[ORDERED WEB]

Well when you come to sell a house, as a selelr, you need to stump up certificates, along with guarantees, and service reports... or the solicitors rightfully get really twitchy

 

[G. Lasagne]

Well when you come to sell a house, as a selelr, you need to stump up certificates, along with guarantees, and service reports... or the solicitors rightfully get really twitchy

Yes and if thats the case you pay

the only certificates you need when selling a house are:

Notification certificates for installation work
and a report on headed paer/safety chek if the surveyor feels the boiler looks a bit iffy.

All the above (except notification) you pay for.

 

[ORDERED WEB]

Yes and if thats the case you pay

the only certificates you need when selling a house are:

Notification certificates for installation work
and a report on headed paer/safety chek if the surveyor feels the boiler looks a bit iffy.

All the above (except notification) you pay for.

sold a house recently?

 

[saxondale]

sold a house recently?

I have yes

 

[Lee Jones Jnr]

Wow people get stroppy and argumentative at the end of the week!

I don't know what is and isn't required regarding 'odd job' gas work which is why I asked, it seemed odd to me that a safety certificate wasn't issued but if that is normal then that is normal. For rented properties when all I want is a check and a cert I expect to pay. Regardless I will never be using that particular engineer again.

 

[skyhi2]

I think G.Lasagne meant " Gas Wise " Place Of Design.

We all know you need HIPs packs Etc Etc.

If the Buyer wants a gas cert,then the seller will have to stump up for one.

Skyhi2.

 

[G. Lasagne]

i havent sold a house recently, but i do work in the heating industry and have done 100s of checks for sellers and buyers, have you? i know what it entails, when it should be done, what the legal requirement is etc etc

 

[ORDERED WEB]

forget gas, they now want alarm service certificates, gas service certificates, guarantees on 3 replaced tiles, electrical inspection certificates the list is endless

 

[skyhi2]

As in,referring to

Skyhi2.

 

[Bri]

Your confusion your industry with mine, just because you do things a certain way does not mean that other industries do, our registration with gas safe cover customers no documents are needed.

This is for the majority of HEATING companies if not all, please do not tell me the way you think it should be done as thats what you do, your not a heating engineer

boiler/heating repair - no certificate
install - no certificate
servicing - no certificate (if any a service certfificate or service card)
flushing/radiator/pipework - no certificate

wait for it...................

landlord inspection - certificate

no buts, no "well thats not how we do it", no "its bad practice"

Thats the way it is, thats the rules, thats the score.

So if you want a certificate for anythig other than a landlord inspection then expect to pay

...if you do a job for me, the customer I expect you to leave me with paperwork, end of. It guarantees that you have carried out the work that I have asked you to do, it also guarantees me the knowledge that I can be happy that the work has been carried out to my satisfaction, and it covers you in the event of any query.

Any contractor who walks away from a job without leaving any sort of paperwork, doesnt matter what industry, deserves what they get.

Steve(Saxondale) and I both know, in our industry, the possible implications of not carrying out this very, very, simple task.Now apply that concept to a gas engineer and the outcomes are the same.

I will supply you with a personal example, when I was a service engineer for a well known national company,I attended a House of Fraser store in North Wales to install a vital piece of equipment. when I got there with the kit, the ancillary eqpt hadnt been installed by another contractor which meant I couldnt finalise the job. That night a fire broke out and the building was raised to the ground.I was summoned, that night by managers in the early hours to explain why this happened. Fortunately for me I had paperwork signed by the customer which explained why I couldnt finish the job.This saved the company millions of pounds in a law suit. So why are we bickering about whats needed and whats not.

You just make sure your arse is covered on every job you do, and if thats the way you want to work you'll never do a job for me.

 

[MASSEY]

Originally Posted by G. Lasagne
Yes and if thats the case you pay

the only certificates you need when selling a house are:

Notification certificates for installation work
and a report on headed paer/safety chek if the surveyor feels the boiler looks a bit iffy.

All the above (except notification) you pay for.

What is in a HIP

See an example HIP


The HIP is made up of required (compulsory) and authorised (optional) items.
There shouldn't be any marketing or advertising material in the pack, so make sure it contains official information only.
From 6 April 2009, the HIP must be available and contain the following documents on the first day a property is put on the market:

• Home Information Pack Index
• Property Information Questionnaire (PIQ)
• Energy Performance Certificate (EPC) or Predicted Energy Assessment (PEA)
• sustainability information (required for newly built homes)
• sale statement
• evidence of title

If the following documents are unavailable when marketing begins, they should be added to the HIP as soon as they are available. These documents must be included within 28 days of the date the property was first placed on the market:

• standard searches (local authority and drainage and water)
• a copy of the lease for leasehold properties
• commonhold documents, where appropriate

Just a bit of help for when you get round to selling your next house.

 

[skyhi2]

Try this Bri,if i may :-

boiler/heating repair - no certificate ( Invoice/Paperwork/Guarantee left with client )
install - no certificate ( Invoice/Paperwork/Guarantee left with client )
servicing - no certificate (if any a service certfificate or service card)( Invoice client )
flushing/radiator/pipework - no certificate ( Simple job-Simple Invoice to client )

Unless any of the above is rented accommodation,then Paperwork to the landlord.

No gas inspection certificate would be issued for any of the above works unless it is requested,then chargeable.

Chargeable because there might be another 4/5/6/7 seperate appliances in the property ( cooker or hob/oven,balanced flue fire/s,fridge,multipoint,meters, Etc Etc ) and all these would need to be taken into consideration.

Remember also,let`s say there was a leak on the supply to the Hob,that would have to be rectified before issuing the certificate,and guess what,that would be chargeable too.

Skyhi2.

 

[Bri]

Try this Bri,if i may :-

boiler/heating repair - no certificate ( Invoice/Paperwork/Guarantee left with client )
install - no certificate ( Invoice/Paperwork/Guarantee left with client )
servicing - no certificate (if any a service certfificate or service card)( Invoice client )
flushing/radiator/pipework - no certificate ( Simple job-Simple Invoice to client )

Unless any of the above is rented accommodation,then Paperwork to the landlord.

No gas inspection certificate would be issued for any of the above works unless it is requested,then chargeable.

Chargeable because there might be another 4/5/6/7 seperate appliances in the property ( cooker or hob/oven,balanced flue fire/s,fridge,multipoint,meters, Etc Etc ) and all these would need to be taken into consideration.

Remember also,let`s say there was a leak on the supply to the Hob,that would have to be rectified before issuing the certificate,and guess what,that would be chargeable too.

Skyhi2.

...with what you've written there,with the exception of point 4, I would leave a service report as well.Thats all I was trying to get across is that we should all leave the customer some form of paperwork signed by us saying we've done the work and signed by them accepting we've done the work and it was what we were asked to do.

And more importantly for Gas safe and Niciec approved companies its an audit trail of your competence.

As engineers we always trust what the customer tells us, our experience tells us otherwise.

Although we pontificate a bit I also agree that Saxondale, G.Lasagne, myself should charge extra for our services if over and above what we've been asked to do. I'm going to stand my ground on paperwork.

 

[G. Lasagne]

Originally Posted by G. Lasagne
Yes and if thats the case you pay

the only certificates you need when selling a house are:

Notification certificates for installation work
and a report on headed paer/safety chek if the surveyor feels the boiler looks a bit iffy.

All the above (except notification) you pay for.

What is in a HIP

See an example HIP


The HIP is made up of required (compulsory) and authorised (optional) items.
There shouldn't be any marketing or advertising material in the pack, so make sure it contains official information only.
From 6 April 2009, the HIP must be available and contain the following documents on the first day a property is put on the market:

• Home Information Pack Index
• Property Information Questionnaire (PIQ)
• Energy Performance Certificate (EPC) or Predicted Energy Assessment (PEA)
• sustainability information (required for newly built homes)
• sale statement
• evidence of title

If the following documents are unavailable when marketing begins, they should be added to the HIP as soon as they are available. These documents must be included within 28 days of the date the property was first placed on the market:

• standard searches (local authority and drainage and water)
• a copy of the lease for leasehold properties
• commonhold documents, where appropriate

Just a bit of help for when you get round to selling your next house.

The thread is about GAS WORK, im not talking about hips, read the thread the only GAS GAS GAS certficates you need are etc etc etc,

 

[Bri]

The thread is about GAS WORK, im not talking about hips, read the thread the only GAS GAS GAS certficates you need are etc etc etc,

...thats what happens in threads, it gets hijacked or diverted. Glad someones here to bring it back.

Hijack alert: I havent heard the term GAS GAS GAS for donkeys years, when I was in the TA in Catterick NBC training.

Anyway, hijack over, back to what we were discussing.

 

[saxondale]

...if you do a job for me, the customer I expect you to leave me with paperwork, end of. It guarantees that you have carried out the work that I have asked you to do, it also guarantees me the knowledge that I can be happy that the work has been carried out to my satisfaction, and it covers you in the event of any query.

Any contractor who walks away from a job without leaving any sort of paperwork, doesnt matter what industry, deserves what they get.

Steve(Saxondale) and I both know, in our industry, the possible implications of not carrying out this very, very, simple task.Now apply that concept to a gas engineer and the outcomes are the same.

I will supply you with a personal example, when I was a service engineer for a well known national company,I attended a House of Fraser store in North Wales to install a vital piece of equipment. when I got there with the kit, the ancillary eqpt hadnt been installed by another contractor which meant I couldnt finalise the job. That night a fire broke out and the building was raised to the ground.I was summoned, that night by managers in the early hours to explain why this happened. Fortunately for me I had paperwork signed by the customer which explained why I couldnt finish the job.This saved the company millions of pounds in a law suit. So why are we bickering about whats needed and whats not.

You just make sure your arse is covered on every job you do, and if thats the way you want to work you'll never do a job for me.

but thats still not a certificate is it, thats just "paperwork" - our certs cost us £25 a time from the regulator, the certificates we see from the fire guys are printed at home on A4 ................... see?

 

[ORDERED WEB]

I think my point has been missed. As a customer I wouldnt normally give a Hoot. However, as we are selling our house RIGHT NOW and dealing with 100's of stupid queries about garruntee certificates, regulation certificates, imdemnity insurances to negate the lack of certificates. In light of this, I would recommend hitting the customer with all the paperwork possible, and telling them to file it explaining that replacement copies will be chargeable

We have brought and sold a few houses, and never met this level of "needing paperwork". i can only report it how it is, which is since the advent of the hip pack, solicitors are delighting in making a meal out of the rest of the job

If the paperwork is "strictly needed" or not is not relevant... if your buyer is demanding this that and the other, in a tricky economic environment where houses are taking ages to sell, not stumping up what is asked for is not an option

 

[Bri]

but thats still not a certificate is it, thats just "paperwork" - our certs cost us £25 a time from the regulator, the certificates we see from the fire guys are printed at home on A4 ................... see?

...and as Ive said to you before its a money making scheme for others, charging you £25.00 for the priviledge of having a badge on it, never mind about your experience and knowledge. So what if people use A4 printed certs, I can get a 4 pads of triplicate headed sheets from a printers for less than you pay NSI or Nacoss Cets and citing the relevant British Standard clauses. Doesnt mean I do less of a job. Dont get me started on badges and accreditation again Steve.

I agree with the poster, it is getting a bit out of hand in the house selling market.I'm doing some work for some friends at the moment who have their houses for sale, just little odd jobs that they cant manage in order to satisfy the HIPS. More money for a badge.

 

[saxondale]

...and as Ive said to you before its a money making scheme for others, charging you £25.00 for the priviledge of having a badge on it, never mind about your experience and knowledge. So what if people use A4 printed certs, I can get a 4 pads of triplicate headed sheets from a printers for less than you pay NSI or Nacoss Cets and citing the relevant British Standard clauses. Doesnt mean I do less of a job. Dont get me started on badges and accreditation again Steve.

I agree with the poster, it is getting a bit out of hand in the house selling market.I'm doing some work for some friends at the moment who have their houses for sale, just little odd jobs that they cant manage in order to satisfy the HIPS. More money for a badge.

as you say - your certs are worthless because anyone can get one, which IS the point i`m trying to make ........... but please don`t worry about it any longer.

you never explained why you sign on on a Thursday - ready yet?

 

[skyhi2]

@ saxondale,you mean £25.00 for a refill pad ?

Skyhi2.

 

[Bri]

as you say - your certs are worthless because anyone can get one, which IS the point i`m trying to make ........... but please don`t worry about it any longer.

you never explained why you sign on on a Thursday - ready yet?

What would you like to discuss first....
http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=109996.

I'm flattered yet again that you pay so much attention to me and my personal life Steve. Hey folks I have my very own stalker.I certainly dont hide the fact that I sign on, I certainly dont hide the fact if you're referring to this post:

http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=135410.

I havent told anyone how my business or my business interests are doing and none of you have asked either,I've made brief mentions along the way, although Avril (OWL1) on here is probably the closest person to know me and my day to day goings on, and Steve White, another UKBF member who was around when we had the shop .I've also asked and received advice on here as well as giving it, even you have PM.d asked me for advice Steve since you thought were being tucked up by one of your subbies.

I am actually allowed to sign on as long as I stay in the parameters of what the law lays down and I do declare what I do,I actually do not receive anything from the DWP and never have received anything as I dont qualify. I work to their rules and abide by them. I'm not robbing anyone if thats what your implying,I actually work for what I earn as that between my other halfs wages and the kids houskeeping keeps us going.Is that enough information.

Also If I want to print worksheets on A4 pad, I can and I will. I work to the letter of the law, I've been around the industry far too long. I qualified as an electrician in 1976, was trained in fire systems during that time, huge relays in panels, a four zone panel fitted a wall that a twelve /24 zone panel occupies now with frog eye lamp indicators and wet cell chargers and have constantly stayed up to date with legislation and technology ever since, I've installed and serviced every type of system and manufacturer you care to mention.

Steve if youre trying to pee me off you're not succeeding, is that part of your strategy is stray off the argument point and character attack someone. As for your comment about not worrying about it any longer, why would you think I would be worried I am merely stressing a point about paperwork, we merely have differing attitudes towards it, and its something that we are going to have to agree to disagree on.

And if he was alive my dad is bigger than your dad

 

[saxondale]

@ saxondale,you mean £25.00 for a refill pad ?

Skyhi2.

nope - i mean the actual certificate we issue costs us £25.00 each - the difference between Gas, our industry and Bri`s .............gas is legally regulated, we`ve voluntered for regulatation but Bri`s is self regulated, thats why he`s having such a hard time getting the point.

 

[skyhi2]

Sorry saxondale,i just can not get my head around the price of your certs,or is it me being thick :|

Surely they would cost you no more than 30p Max ( 50 @ around £14 or so ).

Unless i am missing something.

Skyhi2.