Question for those working in SEO

[Sage1974]

Hi

I am at a current cross roads. I have a choice on what to sell next and one of those choices is SEO.

My friend started the company in September last year and now has 80 clients. He has offered me good commission with a residual income as long as the customer is on the campaign. My concern is that the customer does not continue with the campaign on an ongoing basis. Some may pause the campaign after a few months and then take it up again later.

This seems all very unstable to me. My friend has not been doing it long enough for me to see a full track record and be able to do a proper analysis and business plan. I can't even forecast.

Please could you let me know a clearer understanding of the trends when a client is not fixed into a contract? How long do they stay on? Do they mostly come back periodically. What percentage do you lose completely?

Thanks in advance

 

[terryuk]

Hi

I am at a current cross roads. I have a choice on what to sell next and one of those choices is SEO.

My friend started the company in September last year and now has 80 clients. He has offered me good commission with a residual income as long as the customer is on the campaign. My concern is that the customer does not continue with the campaign on an ongoing basis. Some may pause the campaign after a few months and then take it up again later.

This seems all very unstable to me. My friend has not been doing it long enough for me to see a full track record and be able to do a proper analysis and business plan. I can't even forecast.

Please could you let me know a clearer understanding of the trends when a client is not fixed into a contract? How long do they stay on? Do they mostly come back periodically. What percentage do you lose completely?

Thanks in advance

I would say do a good job, and they will come back or tell a mate. Or something along those lines.

For me personally, it's normally a case of me telling them to go away :redface:

80 clients seems stable enough, but all depends upon what you consider a stable job.

 

[redalien]

Despite all the talk there is still a strong market and requirement for SEO services.
As with any industry customers come and go but if clients are seeing value from increased search positions which is making them more profitable then an SEO has delivered their side of the deal.

If the clients are not resigning this may be because:
1) the targeted positions have not been achieved.
2) targeted positions have been achieved and they now want to manage SEO internally.
3) they have been offered a cheaper SEO service.
4) the SEO company has been spamming and customers are starting to be penalised by search engines and quitting contracts.

Going back to your question, white hat SEO is a long term process and you should be working with clients for a minimum of 6 months to see real value from your services so they certainly should leave after just a few months.
Hope this helps.

 

[RedEvo]

80 SEO clients? How many employees does he have?

d

 

[Sage1974]

Thanks. My original intention was to build a client base where clients stay with you for the long term. Few years at least. However the remuneration is attractive, even if the lifespan is 6 months.

What I have now found out can give me some basis for planning.

Thanks again.

Still open to any input anyone else may want to add.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

80 SEO clients? How many employees does he have?

d

Probably 1 , himself, he also has a copy of SENuke <joke>

 

[RedEvo]

Thanks. My original intention was to build a client base where clients stay with you for the long term. Few years at least. However the remuneration is attractive, even if the lifespan is 6 months.

What I have now found out can give me some basis for planning.

Thanks again.

Still open to any input anyone else may want to add.

Is your pal is a one man band with 80 SEO clients?

d

 

[Sage1974]

I never said that he is a one man band.

He has a partner. 1 full time sales guy, and others that pass business on an as and when basis plus 1 full time worker on the SEO

 

[OldWelshGuy]

80 clients divided by 20 days a month = 4 clients per day which = 2 hours per month per client for SEO work. This is whay eyebrows were raised

 

[Sage1974]

80 clients divided by 20 days a month = 4 clients per day which = 2 hours per month per client for SEO work. This is whay eyebrows were raised

I'll repeat. He is not a one man band.

 

[RevaxMedia]

80 SEO clients? How many employees does he have?

d

If this is a usual SEO structure he will be a one man band with an automated software who spams sites such as Pligg, I may be wrong but I know loads of these one man bands with high client volume low retention.

 

[webgeek]

80 clients accumulated in 7 months and 1 person doing the actual SEO.

I'd suggest getting your friend to open up the books and analytics history to see what's transpired. Without an accurate picture, you might as well just throw your money at flippa and cry when the results aren't as promised.

Personally, I'm running with a fraction of that number of clients and a multiple of that number of staff. So, again, I'd be one of those with raised eyebrows too, much like the other experienced marketers here....

 

[Sage1974]

There are multiple people doing the SEO. He doesn't spam and isn't underhanded. Interesting it is mentioned that a "usual structure" spams and are one man bands. I take it then that this means that there are more spamming one man bands than proper ethical organisations?

 

[Annoying Donkey]

I'm a two man band with additional helpers, and I doubt we could effectively handle 80 clients...or anywhere near that...

 

[OldWelshGuy]

There are multiple people doing the SEO. He doesn't spam and isn't underhanded. Interesting it is mentioned that a "usual structure" spams and are one man bands. I take it then that this means that there are more spamming one man bands than proper ethical organisations?

Please don't get all defensive. You have asked a question and appear to be unhappy with the replies

You stated he has 1 full time SEO, the sales people don't count as they are not actually doing the SEO.

So assuming he has a partner, plus him and they spend 50% of their time on SEO, that makes 2 people full time handling 40 clients a piece. that leaves them working on each client for 4 hours a month. do you see what is being said here?

You asked a question, it raised concerns, now how you handle those concerns is up to you, but getting all defensive and into a position to argue is your choice. But ask yourself this. Why have these concerns been raised? They COULD be totally unfounded and he might well have another 4 people doing work for clients that you know nothing about. OR they could be using automated software that Google has worked out and is penalising sites for using.

 

[terryuk]

I think a intelligent person with some help could probably pull it off with the right clients and a whole lot of other factors, but everyone is sprueing all over the shop. Anything is possible, but it could be some low end SEO submission for all we know.

And just because someone or yourself can't do something, doesn't mean anyone else can't :|

 

I suspect it would be possible for a single SEO to maintain 80 sites provided they were not in high competition areas.

I.E for example many of the sites I look after need nothing more than a watching brief,some not having been touched in years.

For high competition sites its a pretty constant battle.

Earl

 

[terryuk]

I suspect it would be possible for a single SEO to maintain 80 sites provided they were not in high competition areas.

I.E for example many of the sites I look after need nothing more than a watching brief,some not having been touched in years.

For high competition sites its a pretty constant battle.

Earl

High competition and your own 80 properties! That is even better

 

[Codefixer]

Problem is, once something goes wrong or needs addressed and it invariably does you then have to go through everything with a fine-tooth comb and this can be so time consuming that you would struggle to service all the other clients.

 

[RedEvo]

These forums are often used to bash people who work in search marketing and this is a result of the many cowboys who operate in this field. The concerns people have shown in this thread stem from this.

We are simply concerned for you. If you work as a sales person for an SEO boiler house (if that's what your pal is doing) this may come back to haunt you. Myself and others are simply suggesting that to service 80 SEO clients in any meaningful way would require a significant staff, and by that I believe 15 to 20 people as a minimum (notwithstanding the watching brief mentioned by Earl). To do it with less suggests automation and this isn't something with any kind of shelf life IMHO.

d

 

[bdw]

You guys are making assumptions about the level of service that is being offered.

.

 

[Suzuki]

You guys are making assumptions about the level of service that is being offered.

.

Well its pretty obvious the level of service thats being offered if its 2 seo's dealing with 80 clients.

If they are all in very easy niches you'll probably get away with it... for a while. 2-4 hours a client per month gets you next to no work done so there is no real option but to use spammy tactics, and scale it across all your clients.

I wouldn't like to work in that office the day after a Panda or a Penguin, when 80 clients are all screaming at you down the phone, what do you do then? Tell some of them their 4 hours is scheduled in 3 weeks from now?

 

[bdw]

Just sayin ...

.

 

[bdw]

I wouldn't like to work in that office the day after a Panda or a Penguin, when 80 clients are all screaming at you down the phone, what do you do then? Tell some of them their 4 hours is scheduled in 3 weeks from now?

In my experience very few people monitor their rankings on a daily basis.

.

 

[Suzuki]

In my experience very few people monitor their rankings on a daily basis.

.

They might not monitor their rankings daily while the phone is ringing and orders are coming in but a complete wipeout like Panda or Penguin potentially delivers is going to be quickly noticeable.

Then all those sites that could coast by on a few hours work a month, probably need 50+ hours each to even begin to fix the damage. But they're all paying for 4 hours a month so how can you even begin to fix it? There isn't enough staff. Which is just as well as there isn't enough money to pay the staff needed, or enough hours in the day

 

[Codefixer]

In my experience very few people monitor their rankings on a daily basis.

Clients that pay for SEO do. Some are quite religious about it and worryingly even go so far as to check them constantly.

 

[chrismartin4u]

It depends on the services you provide to your clients. If your services and behavior are good and friendly for your customer then surely he will come back to you.

 

Then all those sites that could coast by on a few hours work a month, probably need 50+ hours each to even begin to fix the damage. But they're all paying for 4 hours a month so how can you even begin to fix it? There isn't enough staff. Which is just as well as there isn't enough money to pay the staff needed, or enough hours in the day

What damage.?

If you do thing right in the first place ,its unlikely to happen.

People stay with you because you keep them at the top of the rankings and they earn money.

How much work that involves for an SEO can vary from zero to a few hours.

Earl

 

[Suzuki]

What damage.?

If you do thing right in the first place ,its unlikely to happen.

People stay with you because you keep them at the top of the rankings and they earn money.

How much work that involves for an SEO can vary from zero to a few hours.

Earl

What damage? If you were competing in a relatively weak niche, with low budgets only buying a couple of man hours a month then you would have no option but to get spammy.

How many hours does it take to order a few hundred spam links? Now how many multiples of those hours does it take to remove them all, 6 months later? (then multiply that by 6 as you've done it every month).

I wouldn't even really blame the seo there... if you give someone a couple of hours a month to do something then they are going to have to make the most of a bad set of conditions and cut corners.

Its easy to say do it right to begin with and nothing bad will happen, but what if doing it right to begin with would have took 50 hours a month and that would have cost more than the site was making? Some of the site owners will have had no choice but to take risks.

 

[bdw]

Anyone heard of retainer fees?

.

 

[terryuk]

There is a job done, then a job done properly.

An SEO would or should know if (there are any short cuts) it will bring long lasting results.

What takes someone 50 hours, could take someone else just 10? Half the people need to research things before they start because they take on jobs they have no idea about.

I could bet in some a few cases hire someone for 40 hours, hire me for 10 and I'd do a better job :|:| 40 hours twiddling thumbs

 

[Annoying Donkey]

What damage? If you were competing in a relatively weak niche, with low budgets only buying a couple of man hours a month then you would have no option but to get spammy.

Every ones in the same boat. If others in a given niche can do things right then so can you. If I remember correctly Amazon didn't make a profit for many years, but the founder invested large sums to make his name and is now worth billions. You need a long term business plan and if the sums don't add up, you find another business...

Its easy to say do it right to begin with and nothing bad will happen, but what if doing it right to begin with would have took 50 hours a month and that would have cost more than the site was making? Some of the site owners will have had no choice but to take risks.

Again, this is poor business planning. Generally speaking, if you put in the investment for good SEO, it is timeless and the rankings remain through changes to the algorithm. If the investment doesn't give you a return, find another business.

Furthermore, nobody should rely on one form of marketing, especially one as fickle as G.

IMHO there is really no excuse for spam.

 

[bdw]

Furthermore, nobody should rely on one form of marketing, especially one as fickle as G.

It has worked for me since 2001.

.

 

[Annoying Donkey]

It has worked for me since 2001.

.

I seem to remember you saying you got a lot of business by referrals...

 

[Suzuki]

Again, this is poor business planning. Generally speaking, if you put in the investment for good SEO, it is timeless and the rankings remain through changes to the algorithm. If the investment doesn't give you a return, find another business.

Furthermore, nobody should rely on one form of marketing, especially one as fickle as G.

IMHO there is really no excuse for spam.

Google's own business model doesn't allow you to compete unless you want to spam and/or break the rules though.

I agree that if you don't break the rules your seo will remain timeless and your rankings won't change... they'll always be horrendous

The above of course only applies to really competitive niches, big money phrases and so on.

 

[bdw]

I seem to remember you saying you got a lot of business by referrals...

Yes, I do, so what's your point? :|:|:|

.