PRS/PPL has got to be the biggest scam going

Norman Bailey

Free Member
Aug 12, 2015
79
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LIncoln UK
We are a small business of 5 people. We have a small open plan office. It is not open to the general public.

We have a radio on in the background playing the local BBC radio station.

We have a TV licence to cover the premises just in case anyone watches the TV over the internet, this also covers the use of the radio. In addition we are chased every year for a PRS for Music and a PPL licence. Between the three of them that amounts to around £700 a year to listen to the radio. We get phone calls and written reminders from the PRS and PPL every year that threaten us with legal action if we do not have one of their licences.

If I am going to pay to listen solely to the local radio then surely I should only have to pay TV Licensing as they have already paid PRS and PPL?

I agree that licences should be issued in places like village halls, shops and pubs where money is being made for playing the music.

To me it seems like one of the biggest rip-off scams that could ever be imagined.
 
D

Deleted member 226268

£ 700 a year :eek: to be forced to suffer listening to a constant river of inane moronic drivel
from XYZ radio !!!!

Why don't you insist that everyone brings in their own i-music-phone, or CD player WITH headphones.
Each of you can then listen to whatever you personally prefer to listen to .... for Free. :D
 
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Norman Bailey

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Aug 12, 2015
79
7
LIncoln UK
You develop software, so presumably believe that people should be paid for their intellectual property.

So why would this apply to you and not musicians?

As I hold a qualification in intellectual copyright I believe I am able to tell you.

When I write software the customer pays me, they don't pay an extra bill from the company which produced the programming language or from the supplier of the operating system that it runs on. I pay a licence fee to the programming language supplier and that cost is passed on indirectly to the customer.

The Beeb pays a substantial amount to play the music. They then charge me in the form of a TV licence. I then pay an additional fee to PRS and another to PPL. Notice that I say that we pay? So we are already in the 10% minority that are completely legal.

I believe the cost is rather excessive and consider that it's three bites at the same cherry.

I wouldn't have a problem with it if we ran a shop to which the public had access or openly broadcast it. Just five blokes in an office with a single radio running quietly in the background. You tell me what the real difference is between five blokes listening to a single radio which does require PRS/PPL and five blokes listening to the same station on headphones which doesn't?

I suppose it will be the same reason why you get multi-millionaire musicians and footballers while the guy emptying your household bin gets £6.50 an hour.
 
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As I hold a qualification in intellectual copyright I believe I am able to tell you.

So I'm sure you appreciate that there are different levels of licensing?
If I buy software from you, am I free to sell on multiple copies for example?

And that the BBC does more than just place the music, costs which they have to cover?
And that the PPL and PPR are licensing different things?

I suppose it will be the same reason why you get multi-millionaire musicians and footballers while the guy emptying your household bin gets £6.50 an hour.

There is nothing stopping you making your own songs, then PPL and PPR will pay you money.
 
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It's probably costing you more in lost productivity anyway.

"
It must also be noted, that for all the positive effects of listening to music while working there are also some downsides. The wrong music can sometimes serve as a massive distraction, so it’s essential to put some thought into selecting the perfect work tunes. While some individuals may be distracted by music with vocals, others may be distracted by music they strongly like or dislike.

  • Those who listen to their favourite top ten charts on the radio will probably not have the most productive or focused work period. Radio adverts, news bulletins or exciting reports between songs will often interrupt the workflow.

  • Sam Howard argues that songs with well known lyrics can also be counter productive. The brain automatically zones in on the text and before you know it your concentration is lost. Podcasts are also not recommended for those hoping not to get sidetracked.
The solution? Just listen to music without vocals, or songs with less attention-grabbing lyrics. Instrumental music such as classical, electro and jazz are perfect for setting the right conditions to get some serious work done. They are also thought to sustain your focus."

https://jaxenter.com/why-you-should...coding-and-what-kind-to-listen-to-108013.html
 
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TODonnell

Free Member
Sep 23, 2011
1,405
210
London (UK)
I say nix to music at work. And radio, no way.

Your brain is processing this information even if your conscious mind isn't aware of it. It's a distraction.

Also: Most modern media is either drivel or contains negative messages e.g. rebellion, sexual indulgence, narcissism.

You don't want that festering in your sub-conscious.
 
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While I agree its a bit excessive there is also the point that in your home you pay to listen to music:

Youtube music has ads to cover the cost, commercial radio has ads, bbc radio is paid for through licensing and if you want use itunes you pay for the music.

Why should businesses be any different? or why should one business have to pay for it (radio stations) while others don't?
 
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D

Deleted member 252819

I'm a PRS member, and the most I ever earned for one play was £150 (a brief snipped on BBC1). Most small bands earn less. So if you object to funding "multi-millionaire musicians", why not listen to 6 Music or XFM, so you have more chance of your money going to find people who earn very little.

PRS money is the only income some musicians ever get. If you use the radio as a perk in the office, I don't see why you shouldn't pay for it.
 
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paulears

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Jan 7, 2015
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Here we go again. It's a shame that the qualification you hold in intellectual property was clearly awarded without you understanding the basic concepts!

In this world there are things that are supported by legislation.
There are things we dislike or even find unfair.
Agreeing with the second doesn't mean the first doesn't apply.

The BBC license fee is almost universally disliked, however, if you have a TV you need one. You can tell the BBC to F off if you wish - it changes nothing.

The BBC license fee is for domestic broadcasting. It's very clear in the license. If you are being nice, and allow your staff to benefit, then the BBC have NOT paid the intellectual copyright owners and agents for your use, so stop moaning.

The owner of the rights has control of their product. If you have paid the artiste/composer/record company to use it, all is well. If you haven't then any argument you have is totally irrelevant.

You are free to do whatever you wish. The copyright owners and agents are also free to take legal action. Now it's been automated like the county court, it's VERY simple to do.

If you tell PRS or PPL to take a jump, they will assess how much it is going to cost them to try too recover the sums involved and make a decision to act or not. As agents of people like Claire and me, I expect them to do what is best for me.

Frankly, I'm sick of this topic every time it pops up, with people being indignant about them not being liable to pay. Everyone is entitled to do what they want - do 40mph outside a school, fiddle your tax, bypass your electricity meter. People who do these things always have good reasons (in their opinion). The law disagrees, and rarely fails when tested in court.

I have got used to the ignorant treating music differently to other commodities, but I get fed up when they clearly obey the laws they do approve of. I pay my bills from income from music and performance related activities. It's my business.

Perhaps Norman would let me have some of his software for free - it's been paid for by the client who commissioned it, so letting me, and other members on this forum have it for nothing would be ok? I'm sure his client would be fine with it. How about if I get a copy of the programming language Norman pays for, and use it to produce similar stuff, but cheaper than Norman. Is that fair?

Course not - I think the blasé way people treat music, as if it doesn't matter is what really niggles.

It's a bit Orwellian - why are some people's rights more important than others?

If you use music you should pay. Somebody the other day said that access to water was a human right. Bypassing your water meter is ok then?
 
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smo

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Apr 3, 2010
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Devon
If you use music you should pay. Somebody the other day said that access to water was a human right. Bypassing your water meter is ok then?

"USE" music???

Listening isn't using for commercial gain, an employee doesn't give commercial gain by putting the radio on in the office so that argument is null and pointless. Even playing it in a shop doesn't actually give commercial gain but that slightly different.

Water is totally different, legally even if you don't pay your bill you will never be disconnected, its the only protected service everyone has access to despite being provided by private companies.

If you don't like people not paying the scam artists that are PRS/PPL don't put your music in the public domain. It will never be treated the same as other commodities and its completely unenforceable and unrealistic to think otherwise.
 
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paulears

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Jan 7, 2015
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I HAVE to put music in the public domain, because honest people pay me.

The correct official term for using music is actually "Consume" - every time you listen to a piece of music, you consume it. Listening to music is the act that triggers the right for a payment if you are at work. It's not an argument it is a fact. Commercial gain has nothing whatsoever to do with it. Call PRS/PPL scam artists if you wish, but they are legitimate agents and the ONLY way I have to get paid for people using music. Of course, lots of times people use it and get away with it, and people like me live with that, but that is how it works.

It's clear that many people have no idea on how rights work, and are protected by law. Ignorance is perfectly fine, but won't protect you in a court. Playing a bit of music in your shop, or nicking a photo of the internet for your flyers isn't going to send you to prison, but I have noticed that very often it seems PRS/PPL get somebody to court and there is a small fine. These people laugh, and decide that for the amount they were fined, it was better than paying. However, as a night club owner found out recently, the second time it happens, the judges take a very dim view and the fines go up spectacularly. Damn good technique! One intellectual property judge decided that the person in front of him had blatantly flouted the law - and blatant means BIG money.

Carry on being dishonest, I do understand your ignorance and distorted opinion. I've heard it so many times before, and people like me will never convince the "free" brigade. It's only music, it's only a small shop, only a few people probably heard it etc etc etc.

It's silly - but even the Prison Service understand the problem. Prisoners can listen to the radio, but the Prison Service do not pay PRS for their staff, so a prison officer cannot listen to a prisoners radio - which is practically very difficult to do.

I'm also involved with music used during theatre shows - music the audience don't even notice. I have to record the titles and exact running times. A pain for me to do, but I have to do it. Not liking or agreeing with it is unimportant.
 
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"USE" music???

Listening isn't using for commercial gain, an employee doesn't give commercial gain by putting the radio on in the office so that argument is null and pointless. Even playing it in a shop doesn't actually give commercial gain but that slightly different.

Water is totally different, legally even if you don't pay your bill you will never be disconnected, its the only protected service everyone has access to despite being provided by private companies.

If you don't like people not paying the scam artists that are PRS/PPL don't put your music in the public domain. It will never be treated the same as other commodities and its completely unenforceable and unrealistic to think otherwise.

What you are saying is that goods and services that have zero marginal costs should be free.

There are many people who think that IP should be free. Music is IP. It is as much property as a patent, a logo, a film, a computer programme, or a picture and all have zero marginal costs. You may not like the idea, but IP of ANY sort just is somebody else's property and is not free!

But here's the kicker -

The music industry, despite all the glitz and glamour that it tries to generate, is about as close to complete bankruptcy as an entire industry can be. The only exception is live music and that position is being eroded by festivals and charity events that think they can beg free performances in exchange for exposure.

If you saw what musicians really earn, if you were able to look at the books of even some of the so-called top stars, you would be amazed. If you were to look at the returns for ordinary jobbing musicians, you would shake your head in disbelief. Many brilliant people earn absolutely nothing. The very little that they do earn is eaten away by having to pay for instruments, drive to gigs, etc.

What you and others want to get for free is a by-product of a passion that some people have to make music and share that creation with others.

Other people have other passions that they turn into useful careers, such as building houses, studying the law or planting crops. Just because somebody loves the process of building a house, you don't think that it is right to take that house from him for nothing. Just because a lawyer loves the intricacies of contract law, you would not expect him or her to draft a contract for you for free. Just because a farmer takes enormous pride in growing a field of strong and healthy wheat, hardly gives you the right to take some and give him nothing in return.

But in today's digital world, music has zero marginal cost, so it's OK to take it and give the musician nothing. At least, that is what some people think.

Going by that logic, software also has zero marginal cost and should be free. Films have zero marginal cost and should be free.

Going by the crazy logic of "Well, it didn't cost anything to produce, so why the hell should I pay for it!" we must take a fresh look at marginal costs altogether!

Cars have a marginal cost of about one eighth of RRP, so a new Mercedes should set you back £5,000 and no more. A VW Golf, brand spanking new, should cost just £2,500. After all, that's what it costs to build the damn thing, so why should I pay more?

"Ah! Now that's different!" you would say. "They have substantial development costs that run into hundreds of millions! They, the car companies, need a return on investment, otherwise they would not build any new cars and we would all be driving around in Austin A50 Cambridges!"

Bingo!

The same applies to the music business. It costs at least £50,000 to record a commercial CD. Most popular music costs a great deal more than that to record. Classical music is often off the scale. I was once in a London studio control room during an orchestral recording for a film and asked the studio manager what the place cost for one day. She told me £3,600, plus VAT and extras.

"That's nothing!" said the musical director. "That orchestra is costing us £82,000 a day."

But back to popular music - having recorded our great hit, we have to market the damn thing and that means making a video, sending out copies to programme managers and getting agents to hawk it round radio stations and getting it onto play-lists. For a single territory, such as the UK, that will typically cost about £250,000 or more. For the US, think in low millions. Now multiply by all the territories you want/need to hit.

Because of downloads and digital distribution that pays little or nothing, the labels (or what's left of them) hope to make back a large part of their investment through live gigs, except we now have cheap-skates like Glastonbury undermining what little is left, by paying only 10% of an artist's listed fee for 'name' acts and nothing for unknown acts.

So please, SMO, Norman and all the others, think, before you say that playing music in a commercial environment, be that an office, restaurant, shop or anywhere else, should be free.

The zero marginal costs argument has damaged the music industry, probably beyond repair. It is the first casualty in this battle of zero marginal costs.

What are you going to do, when it takes your industry away?
 
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paulears

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Jan 7, 2015
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To the Byre - thank you!

I manage professional theatre productions. Over the years the musicians have been a major expenditure. They have a strong union, and whatever your thoughts on unionism, the union does work hard for them, and keeps their rates high compared to others - Equity, who represent actors are hopeless, and losing members rapidly.

Ten years ago, the 20 plus shows we run al had live bands. The smaller venues had maybe 4, with an orchestra pit full in the larger venues because there are more seats, and occupancy high. The small venues now have tracks, and an empty pit. The bigger venues may now have 5-7 musicians. It's a choice. Music is important, but it has a real cost. Last year I received a memo - make sure there is no Disney and no Abba. Why? The rights holders are not collecting their fees through PRS and PPL, they are dealing direct, meaning it's paid for by the minute at full cost, because at the moment, business wise, this generates more income that the usual agencies can provide. It's a commodity. PRS have a clause in the contract - 7F, and it allows rights to be taken back for direct dealing. If people don't like PRS knocking on the door, with their limited resources, imagine taking on the mighty Disney Corporation. This is how serious rights holder protect their works.

Here's the fine details for the nightclub I mentioned.
http://www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/...-nightclub-Llandudno-high-court-ruling-18-000
This guy got a suspended prison sentence
http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/ne...sentence_for_illegally_playing_music/?ref=trn
 
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A

Andrew Chambers

Trouble is many people don't understand what they are buying when they get their TV licence. It's simply a licence to use equipment that can receive live broadcasts at a set address. It has nothing to do with content and the fact it funds the BBC is irrelevant.
 
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TODonnell

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Sep 23, 2011
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Speak for yourself!

We're being propagandised all the time, and personally, I'm tired of it.

You think Magic FM in the morning is harmless? It's not. It's pitching drab Mary Adminstaff unhealthy desires which she'll assuage by buying herself treats.

Luv,
Romance,
Sex,
Beauty,
Pride,
Acceptance,
Friendship,
Excitement and .....
Feeeeeeelllings.

Very clever people work to bypass her conscious mind to get her to buy shiny happy goods, by associating it with basic desires.

Her cupboard will be full of junk food, her heart full of lust and her closet full of last-years 'must-haves'.

She doesn't know where the money goes.

She'll wake up at 40, 4-stone overweight, with babies by a man she's estranged from and be very bitter, tired and cynical.

Where did it all go wrong?

It went wrong when she reached for glittering, sexy lie, in the fullness of her youth.
 
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TODonnell

Free Member
Sep 23, 2011
1,405
210
London (UK)
Re: PRS and all that:

Behold Kim Dotcom, bloated avatar of the 'information must be free' brigade. Made millions from other people's sweat and didn't pay them a cent for it.

He's a hero to keyboard warriors, I understand. [shakes head].

Music use is about licensing. You either get what licensing is, or you don't.
 
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SugarCubeProductions

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Feb 13, 2014
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Call PRS/PPL scam artists if you wish, but they are legitimate agents and the ONLY way I have to get paid for people using music. Of course, lots of times people use it and get away with it, and people like me live with that, but that is how it works.

This is part of the problem, thats a lie. There's many other ways that artists can get paid then using those companies. They ARE scam artists. They charge a fortune for licence fees and keep most of the money themselves. If you need proof on these find the reports where they sue people who play music they composed and performed themselves, the bands who sign up and then have to pay PPL royalties to perform their own songs at their gigs, and various other instance where they arrest/sue people who have done nothing wrong.




However back to the original point of the topic. If you read here: http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one/business-and-organisations you'll notice that the TV licence doesn't cover radio, only live TV so you don't need it if theres no TV in the office. Thats £150 saved, you're welcome.
 
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D

Deleted member 59730

My favourite story about PRS is of an obscure musician in Africa who worked in a cold storage warehouse and played in their workers' dance band. He wrote a tune which was covered by masses of other bands. Thanks to PRS he and his family benefited hugely from his worldwide success. Hardly anyone has heard the original version but you can look up the covers here....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skokiaan
 
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simon field

Free Member
Feb 4, 2011
6,856
2,691
We're being propagandised all the time, and personally, I'm tired of it.

You think Magic FM in the morning is harmless? It's not. It's pitching drab Mary Adminstaff unhealthy desires which she'll assuage by buying herself treats.

Luv,
Romance,
Sex,
Beauty,
Pride,
Acceptance,
Friendship,
Excitement and .....
Feeeeeeelllings.

Very clever people work to bypass her conscious mind to get her to buy shiny happy goods, by associating it with basic desires.

Her cupboard will be full of junk food, her heart full of lust and her closet full of last-years 'must-haves'.

She doesn't know where the money goes.

She'll wake up at 40, 4-stone overweight, with babies by a man she's estranged from and be very bitter, tired and cynical.

Where did it all go wrong?

It went wrong when she reached for glittering, sexy lie, in the fullness of her youth.

Crikey, you've been listening to the wrong stuff.

Try a bit of Radio 6 music, maybe you'll chill out a bit?
 
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paulears

Free Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,653
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Suffolk - UK
Call PRS/PPL scam artists if you wish, but they are legitimate agents and the ONLY way I have to get paid for people using music. Of course, lots of times people use it and get away with it, and people like me live with that, but that is how it works.
This is part of the problem, thats a lie. There's many other ways that artists can get paid then using those companies. They ARE scam artists. They charge a fortune for licence fees and keep most of the money themselves. If you need proof on these find the reports where they sue people who play music they composed and performed themselves, the bands who sign up and then have to pay PPL royalties to perform their own songs at their gigs, and various other instance where they arrest/sue people who have done nothing wrong.
This just shows your not a musician. We all know there alternatives, and many of us, me included, use them. I have a fairly busy audio download site, where people download and pay for specialist music, but this music would not be used, with a few exceptions, on the broadcast mediums where payments are much higher because of the numbers of listeners. PRS/PPL is the only method I have to generate income from users I do not know about. That is the key. Somebody somewhere who is honest, uses my music. I get something. Sure, PRS/PPL cost to be part of, but every electrician who wants to put lights in kitchens and bathrooms has to pay to belong to a society who license his work.

The so called proof you used is total rubbish! The reason artistes pay to play their own music is a contractual one where they SOLD their rights to their product. It's not the system, their record company sold the rights to somebody else. That's a legal problem. Nothing to do with PRS or PPL. Courts can rectify these issues if they agree. The concept of buy out has been with us for ever. The bass player who wrote the hook line on walk on the wild side took a fee for the session not a share. Millions of radio plays, no money. That's how the music BUSINESS works. Paul McCartney's record company sold the rights, now he owns them again. Michael Jackson thought buying them was a good deal?

I will say it again. Rights are a tradable commodity. If you hear the guy in your local pub singing his own songs, and like one. Buy it. Market it. Sell the product. Make money. Make sure you register it with PPL and they will give you a percentage of national airplay income too. How would you know a radio station in Scotland were playing it over and over again if you live on the south coast? All my music has the embedded metadata that triggers payments. I discovered one of my specialist tracks had been used in a porn movie in California. This triggered the US rights collecting agency to report it to the UK rights people, and then I got a random payment. I'm sure they all took a cut. Who cares?
 
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R

Root 66 Woodshop

By PPL & PRS Standards "Everyone" should be paying to play music

There reasoning for businesses to pay to play is simple... if you play it, you have to pay for it... therefore by that reason alone whenever you switch on your radio in your car you MUST pay to play.

The only reason that we don't is because it would be ludicrous to attempt to fine every single person in the world for playing their radio's.

Simple matter of fact is this... the OP shouldn't need to pay to play because his office is not open to the public.

Going off the "rules" set by PPL and PRS if you play music to the public you have to pay... well, the OP said it himself there are 5 office workers not members of the public in the office.

Simple, stop paying and enjoy the fact that you're saving some money.

Or if you're that bothered by it ... click here

http://www.ppluk.com/smallworkplaces

£44 per annum for a joint licence for SMALL OFFICES of 4 employee's or less... the OP himself stated that there are 5 staf members, one or two of them must be the employers... therefore bringing them into the right category for the above.
;)
 
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paulears

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It's not really the public that is the problem -many places do pay PRS for the license to let the public hear music. The snag is that if you provide music for employees, that is NOT the public, so needs an additional license. Ironically while we're talking about this my wife comes home from work because our local hospital has just banned staff from listening to the radio, because for a busy large hospital with thousands of staff, it is just a bit more than £44, and they can't afford it. Of course, the staff a furious the patients can listen to music, but they can't. They of course don't understand it at all, and are blaming the penny pinching bosses!
 
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Alan

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  • Aug 16, 2011
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    I don't really get it. So the radio station has the right to play music to the public, but the public doesn't have the right to listen to it, if it comes through the loudspeakers owned by a business,but do it it comes through their headphones?

    Wouldn't it be simple to charge the radio stations ( slightly ) more and do away with massive, costly system chasing businesses for playing radio stations.

    Of course very different for employers playing recorded music (they then are in effect radio stations and should pay)
     
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    simon field

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    It's not really the public that is the problem -many places do pay PRS for the license to let the public hear music. The snag is that if you provide music for employees, that is NOT the public, so needs an additional license. Ironically while we're talking about this my wife comes home from work because our local hospital has just banned staff from listening to the radio, because for a busy large hospital with thousands of staff, it is just a bit more than £44, and they can't afford it. Of course, the staff a furious the patients can listen to music, but they can't. They of course don't understand it at all, and are blaming the penny pinching bosses!

    ???

    So if a patient has a radio on, do the staff have to plug their ears?
     
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    kulture

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    The whole system is absurd and full of contradictions. I have a shop and live behind it. If I play music in my house then I do not need to pay PRS/PPL, if however I walk into the shop with a speaker playing, even when it is closed, and play the same music then I have to have a have a PRS/PPL. If however I leave the speaker behind in the residential bit and turn the volume up, again no PRS/PPL.

    Now this is licensed, paid for music. The artist has been paid by me so I can enjoy their music. So why should I have to pay again just because I walk ten paces into a different room?
     
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    KM-Tiger

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    Now this is licensed, paid for music. The artist has been paid by me so I can enjoy their music.
    As will also be the case for the majority of visitors to your shop. Why should more be paid because it's heard in your shop rather than at the visitors' homes?

    Seems to me that royalties are appropriate where there is a commercial entertainment enterprise, but not in other workplaces.
     
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    kulture

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    As will also be the case for the majority of visitors to your shop. Why should more be paid because it's heard in your shop rather than at the visitors' homes?

    Seems to me that royalties are appropriate where there is a commercial entertainment enterprise, but not in other workplaces.

    Not strictly true. When you deliberately play music in a shop, "mood" music, then it is to encourage people to stay and spend, or some similar reason. This is a commercial use and needs to be paid for. Quite rightly so. I was pointing out the absurdity of me working late at night. If I did the paperwork in my dinning room with the radio on I need no PPL/PRS but if I did the same paperwork on the shop counter I would need PPL/PRS even though its my home and no public were there.
     
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