Problems At Work

robin1

Free Member
Aug 4, 2010
2
0
Hello,

My name is Robin and I work in the Civil Service. Up until 12 months ago, all was fine at work until a new Line Manager came along. This new Line Manager happens to be a military Line Manager.

On the 1st July of this year, he called myself and my colleague into what seemed to be a harmless section meeting. However, I have always felt uncomfortable where my Line Manager is concerned and my colleague feels exactly the same way as I do.

At one point during this meeting, already feeling edgy and uncomfortable, my Line Manager begun to talk about an issue, what it was escapes me now but I made the mistake of interrupting him and his voice raised to a level that I personally deemed to be unacceptable and I got out of my seat, told him that I wasn't going to be spoken to in such a way and left the room.

I admit I was wrong to interrupt him, but there was no need for him to raise the tone of his voice. I feel threatened by his presence, regardless of what occurred during the meeting and he is extremely intimidating. I am a man of a certain nervous disposition and I do feel threatened or intimidated by some people because of the way they come over in their behaviour toward me.

When this section meeting had finished, my Line Manager sent a letter to myself and my colleague, explaining we would be having a meeting to decide whether or not to instigate us both on restoring efficiency. The Line Manager during the meeting actually made up his mind before the meeting begun what he was going to do, which was a shade unfair as the judgment was made without either myself or my colleague being able to give a fair judgment first about our work performance. My Line Manager decided we were to go on restoring efficiency and that was that, but the reasons were very laughable and our Trade Union may even quash this. They seem to be on our side as the restoring efficiency might not be safe in the terms it was awarded and secondly, our Line Manager may not be even qualified to manage us.

I did send my Line Manager an email, explaining to him that at the last meeting I had before this particular meeting, I felt intimidated by his methods and also I did feel threatened. My Line Manager explained to me that threatening behaviour is when you act through a physical means. I don't believe this as I believe it can be done verbally as well. What needs to be remembered is that people have certain limits and that whilst one person may tolerate being spoken to in a direct and authoritarian manner, it might make someone else feel uneasy and make them feel threatened or intimidated, as it does myself.

Nevertheless, I received an e-mail from my Line Manager, saying he wanted to see me in the SWO's office at 1130am on 3rd August 2010. Some of the email text had been emboldened and not long before the meeting begun, I found out that my Line Manager had taken in two independent witnesses. At this point, I knew it wasn't going to be good news. Anyhow, I went along with all the will in the world and basically, when I was in there, my Line Manager told me that I had accused him of going against Equality and Diversity and he even begun to get out a dictionary and ask me what the terms intimidation and threatening actually meant. At this point, I found the situation demeaning and humiliating and asked him not to. He was basically saying he was within his rights to do what he did and was criticising the way in which I acted toward him.

My Line Manager told me I was also wrong to go behind his back and go to the PPPA about matters which concerned me from the first meeting and said I should have come to him.

I seemed to recall during the original meeting on the 1st July that he did mention the fact he needed to adopt a certain tone when speaking to his staff but my Line Manager denied this. I could almost swear he said it but I suppose its my word against his on that point.

My Line Manager then said he had to respond to the email I sent to him, even though I asked him not to do so originally before the meeting regarding the restoring efficiency because I just wanted him to reflect on the way I interpreted the meeting on the 1 Jul 2010, as I thought it was just a simple email to express my feelings on the matter. After the restoring efficiency meeting, I assumed that was that. On 3 Aug 2010, I received an email about going to his office to have the meeting to discuss the email I sent to him.

As far as I know, harrassment can come in many forms and its not at all always physical, it can be mental, verbal or indeed, you can feel threatened just by being in somebody's presence. Therefore, I believe my Line Manager is wrong on this aspect and he cannot turn around and say that he wasn't intimidating because when Line Managers speak to their staff, they sometimes don't realise that the way they speak to their staff has a very negative effect on them, even if they think they are speaking in a way that they deem acceptable because not everyone likes a direct, authoritarian approach and I happen to be one of those people.

Equality And Diversity is where people are treated unfairly - well, if my Line Manager can turn around and say I've made false allegations against him, I can certainly put in a case for the way he treated me when he wanted to discuss the email I sent to him as he humiliated me and left me feeling uneasy, especially the business when he got out the dictionary and asked me if I wanted to look up the meaning of intimidation and threatening.

What are your views on this and what do you think I should do?
 

clairewhite

Free Member
Jul 9, 2010
21
5
Wales
You have been treated disgustingly by that pathetic excuse for a 'manager' you need to go to HR first and relay your problems - they are required by law to see these concerns through. Also if you google Employment Law you will get more information on what constitutes bullying - which can be verbal, mental or physical and if the person expericening it or any other person who witnesses it deems it to be bullying then that is what it is.
Good luck
 
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robin1

Free Member
Aug 4, 2010
2
0
Hello,

Thank you for your time on this matter. I agree the Civil Service does get a lot of time off during the year. I am not actually at work today.

I am feeling very unwell due to stress at the moment, having considered what has happened to me at work in the last two days, but there are some very interesting points here, indeed.

I think I'll mull over these comments and see what happens tomorrow but you all have certainly made me sit up and think with these comments you have replied with.

Now I think it might be time to take action.

Thank you,

Robin
 
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KidsBeeHappy

Free Member
Oct 9, 2007
7,371
1,573
Sunny Troon
Robin, with the greatest of respect, you would be better posting this on an employee related forum. The main body of members here are small business owners to whom the employment law requirements, the equality and diversity, etc are an overbearing system that occupies disproportionately large amounts of both time and cost, and is one, if not the major, reason that small employers are reluctant to take on employees. The members here also have to operate commercial businesses in a world that requires far higher levels of efficiency and productivity than the public service does, and as such we are non to sensitive to public sector issues such as restoring efficiency (ie - we've never had the luxury of being able to loose it in the first place!)

You are much more likely to get a far more sensitive discussion of your situation on an employee based forum, I don't know of any, but I guess that someone over at Money saving expert will point you in the right direction.
 
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I still remember a letter in the Times last year, which read to the effect of:

"Stress? Stress is running out of fuel over the Channel in your Spitfire whilst having a couple of Messerschmitts up yer bum!"

I don't think the author would be au fait with the modern public service definition....
 
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maxh

Free Member
Apr 15, 2010
1,115
313
Robin.

Might I suggest that you man up?

Now don't get me wrong, a manager shouldn't shout at you. But that's no reason to make a big fuss about it.

You should have dealt with it then, or to his face.

I do think that you are in the right here, but in all seriousness, you need to man up.

You took the day off because someone shouted at you?!

What good are you going to be if all it takes for you to crumble is someone raising their voice?

Storming out of a meeting with your knickers in a bunch is not a good way to handle things.

I suggest you look into, and find out why, you are so easily intimidated. Because its a big scary world out there, and if you're going to walk around being the biggest pushover on the planet then guess what? You're going to get pushed over.

Take it from me, someone who has been in your situation of blaming other people for my own short-comings.

Its your fault you got intimidated so easily

Its your fault you couldn't handle the meeting

and its your fault that you took a day off work for it!!!
 
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B

Billmccallum

Robin.

Might I suggest that you man up?

Now don't get me wrong, a manager shouldn't shout at you. But that's no reason to make a big fuss about it.

You should have dealt with it then, or to his face.

I do think that you are in the right here, but in all seriousness, you need to man up.

You took the day off because someone shouted at you?!

What good are you going to be if all it takes for you to crumble is someone raising their voice?

Storming out of a meeting with your knickers in a bunch is not a good way to handle things.

I suggest you look into, and find out why, you are so easily intimidated. Because its a big scary world out there, and if you're going to walk around being the biggest pushover on the planet then guess what? You're going to get pushed over.

Take it from me, someone who has been in your situation of blaming other people for my own short-comings.

Its your fault you got intimidated so easily

Its your fault you couldn't handle the meeting

and its your fault that you took a day off work for it!!!

Quote Willams LesterNo wonder the whole civil service needs restructuring! The whole lot of you need to be first for redundancy, how about getting on with some real work instead of posting on a forum during office hours.


I thought the first post from Willams Lester was ill-considered, but the post from Maxh is almost laughable if it were not so hurtful in its conception.

Although this may not be the best forum for this post, I find it hard to believe that another human being can feel the need to respond in this manner.

I can only assume that Maxh is not easily intimidated and can "stand his ground" when confronted, but its not so easy for everyone and we should try to understand the level of pain that this can cause.

As for the OP, I feel sure that your union will deal with this in an appropriate manner, so don't let it get you down.

As for Maxh and Willams Lester... I doubt it.... but I hope you both feel ashamed of you behaviour and I sincerely hope you dont come up against this type of thing yourself.

Yet again, I feel a little disappointed in my fellow man.
 
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Williams lester

As for Maxh and Willams Lester... I doubt it.... but I hope you both feel ashamed of you behaviour and I sincerely hope you dont come up against this type of thing yourself.

Yet again, I feel a little disappointed in my fellow man.

Certainly not....I stand by every word I wrote. The average civil servant could not survive in "real" employment, its about time the less capable and hopelessly inept of them were weeded out and fired.
 
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As for Maxh and Willams Lester... I doubt it.... but I hope you both feel ashamed of you behaviour and I sincerely hope you dont come up against this type of thing yourself.

Yet again, I feel a little disappointed in my fellow man.
I think you are being over sympathetic considering what we have been told Bill.
All we know is that the OP's boss is trying to increase efficiency, nothing wrong with that.
Followed by:
"his voice raised to a level that I personally deemed to be unacceptable"
Followed by:
"Trade Union may even quash this"
"They[trade union] seem to be on our side as the restoring efficiency might not be safe"
"our Line Manager may not be even qualified to manage us"
"[email to boss saying]I felt intimidated by his methods and also I did feel threatened"
"[allegedly accused boss]of going against Equality and Diversity"
"harrassment can come in many forms and its not at all always physical"
"I can certainly put in a case for the way he treated me when he wanted to discuss the email"

The OP escalated what was at worst a 'bollocking' into a full blown union dispute and then complains that he is "a man of a certain nervous disposition and I do feel threatened or intimidated by some people"
But not so meek that he can't explore an array of legal possibilities to get his boss off his back,apparently.

If being so easily intimidated is such a life changing problem get some help from a professional.

What are your views on this and what do you think I should do?
You should do what your boss tells you to do and complain if and when he 'boll***s' you after you have satisfactorily done this.
 
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clairewhite

Free Member
Jul 9, 2010
21
5
Wales
Robin
I thik that yes it is a harsh world out there. But some people forget that as a manager you should have people skills and empathy whilst being firm and a figure of authority. If he was a good manager he would be able to get this balance without ruling through fear. A good manager earns respect through being fair and firm when he needs to be not losing the plot and screaming at his staff.
That's my opinion anyway, maybe i'm wrong
 
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I am writing this having been employed as both a junior manager and also having spent 11 years in the Civil Service.

What I can't understand is why this was posted in a business forum? It has nothing do with business, which suggests to me that the OP has not considered his actions carefully. Why is he discussing it in here if he has already spoken to his union or staff association? Would they be happy that he is doing so? Does he think he is going to get a better response in here than he is getting from his union?

What we need to remember is that there are three sides to this story, his side, the manager's side and the actual truth. All we are hearing is his side. He may not have been treated fairly but who are we to say that the manager was not in the right? We are not really qualified to offer advice or judgement without knowing the full facts.
 
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ManWithBagOverHisHead

Free Member
Aug 3, 2010
42
6
I am not actually at work today.

I am feeling very unwell due to stress at the moment, having considered what has happened to me at work in the last two days

Looks like the efficiency drive has got off to a rather poor start then...

I do agree with the other posters here that you need to just show a bit more backbone and get on with it. He sound's like an a-hole, but life is full of them. You've got to cope with these sorts of things.

I'm waiting for the Apprentice episode where a candidate takes a day off sick because Alan had a bit of a shout at them, and then claims unfair dismissal when he fires them.

As another poster said, this probably isn't the right place to come for sympathy. Most of us run small businesses - but we still have a boss - the client. Occasionally clients shout and are unreasonable and rude - I can't take the day off if they do until I get over it, no one pays me when I take a day off, and certainly not the taxpayers who have no choice. But if the client is regularly out of order, we part company with them. Have you considered leaving?
 
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maxh

Free Member
Apr 15, 2010
1,115
313
To qualify my statement, which I still stand by and if anythign I was not harsh enough, I have been in Robins position.

I have been the guy that got scared when someone raised their voice at me and I have been the helpless weedy coward that he appears to be.

I didn't overcome that by finding legal ways to outsmart other people. I didn't overcome that by running to others for help.

I overcame that by 1. realising that I should not take things so personally 2. learning to stand my ground and calmly 'tell off' people who acted inappropriately towards me and 3. realising that everything in my life is my responsibility.

There is NO WAY IN HELL I would ever employ someone who took time off because someone shouted at them!!!

To me that reads as "Daddy shouted at me becase I wanted all the read balls but he said I had to share so I'm going to not play with anyone today to teach him a lesson"

This is not how a job works, or should work!

You are there to add value to your company and be rewarded accordingly. How is he adding value by causing a massive union dispute over nothing THEN taking time off because he got his feelings hurt?!

You're lucky you're in the public sector because if you were working for a real company you would be gone.

Quote Willams LesterNo wonder the whole civil service needs restructuring! The whole lot of you need to be first for redundancy, how about getting on with some real work instead of posting on a forum during office hours.


I thought the first post from Willams Lester was ill-considered, but the post from Maxh is almost laughable if it were not so hurtful in its conception.

Although this may not be the best forum for this post, I find it hard to believe that another human being can feel the need to respond in this manner.

I can only assume that Maxh is not easily intimidated and can "stand his ground" when confronted, but its not so easy for everyone and we should try to understand the level of pain that this can cause.

As for the OP, I feel sure that your union will deal with this in an appropriate manner, so don't let it get you down.

As for Maxh and Willams Lester... I doubt it.... but I hope you both feel ashamed of you behaviour and I sincerely hope you dont come up against this type of thing yourself.

Yet again, I feel a little disappointed in my fellow man.
 
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bovine

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Aug 23, 2007
1,273
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Various posts about how good the manager is and how he shouldnt have shouted. The OP stated the manager is from the military, so is managing how he has been taught. If you interrupt your commanding officer, what sort of reaction is that going to provoke? And lets face it, military men of a certain type are very good at projecting their voice with authority. OP isnt used to it and has had a bit of a turn.

And I also wondered why this is in the forum.
 
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