Printing Advice (when things go wrong)

[adrianwalsh]

Hi Everyone

I am looking for advice on some printing I recently did for a client.

My client was after some stationery, Letterheads and some business cards and I decided to try out a new printing company (who for now will remain nameless). They were promised to arrive last Thursday, so to be safe I told my client they would arrive Friday as they needed them before they flew abroad on the Monday. They arrived 11am Monday morning, not a good start.

The main issue however is the quality of the letterheads, these have been printed, to my eye out of tolerance, the blacks have printed muddy greys (60-70% black) and my client is very unhappy with them as I am. I have contacted the printers and explained my concerns and they don't want to know. The printers insisted I pay before sending them any artwork, however my client is refusing to pay for these, as I would be myself. I have asked the printer for a full refund and to collect the letterheads or for a reprint to a satisfactory standard. Both options they don't appear to be cooporating. Is there any advice anyone can give me or anything I can do to force the printers to play ball?

Thanks in advance.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

Yes, it is called the judicial system. Tell the printers that the goods are unnacceptable, and unless they rectify the matter you will immediately go to court against them.

 

[adrianwalsh]

Excellent news! Thank you for your help - this will be my next tactic.

 

[business123]

Are they a member on here?

 

[adrianwalsh]

I am not sure to be honest?

 

[thejoshm]

are they a BPIF member?

 

[Printing Deals]

They are not from Germany.. aren't they?

 

[reggiemental]

Hi Adrian

Is it just the letterheads that are poor quality, or where the cards also sub standard?

If you'd like to email me the file (pdf?) that you supplied the printer with, I'd be happy to take a look and see if there's an obvious reason for the poor results.

PM me if you're interested and need my email address.

Paul

 

[adrianwalsh]

Hi all - they are a UK based company. I am still awaiting a satisfactory response from them.

Cannot see anywhere the BPIF logo, which is something I didn't actually consider when ordering. The Business Cards are actually okay, the client did mention they lacked in sharpness, but looking at them, I can't really complain about them, they seem quite satisfactory to me, the letterheads however are just way out of tolerance, the printers are claiming that it is the uncoated stock they have used, but this is just them trying not to take responsibility. Comparing these with a previously printed letterhead I did elsewhere they are a million miles off.

If I do not get a satisfactory result I will name and shame! ;-)

 

[reggiemental]

So the printer is blaming the uncoated stock for the problem. This sounds like a really lame excuse, and if the stock did cause a problem then he'd have a legitimate issue with his paper supplier and should be telling you that a reprint is imminent, as opposed to doing nothing.

 

[Call Tracker]

They should admit their mistake (we all make them) and re-print for you FOC (just the letterheads) and give you a discount for next time. It amazes me how problems are handled, we go out of our way for clients to rectify problems as I think you can salvage a situation if you face up to it and get it sorted.

 

[OCP]

Hi Adrian,

Paper stock is a lame excuse for poor print quality, its surely upto the printer to ensure the inks he uses match the paper he has purchased. Its rather like a taxi driver putting petrol in his diesel ceople carrier and then blaming his passengers when he breaks down.

It sounds like they are trying to back out of a sub standard print job. If you printed offset did you send the file CMYK, did the printer use a process print or did you provide him with pantone references.

If the file was created and sent in RGB and the printer converted to CMYK to print this can cause colour variation also, generally in reds and pastels though as it tends to dull the colours.

As there seems to be a admission already of poor print quality from the printer this doesn't look to be the case here.

if you want to email me the file over i'll take a look at it for you.

Ian
[email protected]

 

[Printing Deals]

Well, I don't think its lame excuse, it happens when you use coated pantone colours on uncoated papers, colour tend to change, mostly to dull and defusing.

Also for black if you use 100% black that also sometimes print dull black which looks dark grey sometimes. Rich black is solution for sharp black.

Good luck with your settlement with printer.

 

[OCP]

Well, I don't think its lame excuse, it happens when you use coated pantone colours on uncoated papers, colour tend to change, mostly to dull and defusing.

Also for black if you use 100% black that also sometimes print dull black which looks dark grey sometimes. Rich black is solution for sharp black.

Good luck with your settlement with printer.

What you say is correct, however it is still a lame excuse .that is why i asked if it was a process or pantone print. The printer should know which paper to use

 

[adrianwalsh]

The printing was 4 colour process, the print job was sent correctly in CMYK.

 

[OCP]

If the artwork was correct then it is a problem with the print, do you have any idea on the makeup of the black used ? what percentage of C M Y and K make up the black in your design?

 

[adrianwalsh]

It was just 100% Black, I did this due to the black being used mainly on text as I was concerned with using rich black due to registration issues.

 

[OCP]

It was just 100% Black, I did this due to the black being used mainly on text as I was concerned with using rich black due to registration issues.

This could actually be the cause of the problem, i recommend 100% K, 40% CMY to get a good solid black especially on uncoated stocks. On board it would not be as obvious as it would on leaflets as the inks wouldn't soak up as much. Try to keep ink coverage between 200 and 300% when drawing up designs , this allows for a good coating of inks to the paper.

( above 300% you could experience cracking however , especially on dark colours )

 

[Midas Creative]

Hi Adrian,

i hope you got this sorted. To be honest any printer worth their weight would offer to reprint this no questions asked even if it wasn't their fault. An unhappy customer never returns and the cost to them would be minimal on a normal print run.

To be honest though, if you read small print on alot of printer websites unless you request pantone colours (costs alot more) then they have a get of jail free card. Alot allow for differences in colours by quite a degree.

In future if you do anything further always ask for a colour correct printed proof. These should be offered free. That way you can compare what you have agreed to against what gets printed. No help now though

 

[OCP]

Hi Adrian,

i hope you got this sorted. To be honest any printer worth their weight would offer to reprint this no questions asked even if it wasn't their fault.

Does that mean a designer is responsible for spelling mistakes when the text has been sent by the customer, does that mean if the customer leaves the product out in the rain the printer should replace them because they are wet and damaged. Does it also mean that if the flyers or leaflets dont bring in any extra work the customer should get a refund?

Obviously no it doesn't and like wise any printer worth his salt would not replace products free of charge if the client has made a mistake.Its a sure fire way to go out of business very quickly. At best we would do a reprint at cost, this would be a favour and not a cop out. I sympathise with Adrian, indeed i have tried as you can see above to help.

I also feel though that not all mistakes are the printers fault, a printer is their to print files, obvious mistakes by the client are picked up by most printers but printers are there to print, hence the name printer, uncanny isn't it.

It is the designers responsibilty to ensure artwork is correct to print, that is why many printers choose to deal only with trade as they know inevitably that someone will make a mistake with the artwork and they will try to pass the blame.

We accept artwork from designers, other printers and general public alike although we understand that Joe Bloggs doesn't understand the print process and his artwork would be checked more thoroughly. That said designers rightly expect a better price which they often get. A good designer is a pleasure to work with as coupling a good design with good print gives amazing results.

 

[Lasting Designs]

And not to mention that when ordering print, getting somebody having with some insurance against this type of thing is something to consider when choosing your print broker/designer/agent. Most designers I know, use rich black as their choice by default, switching to the pantone blk for the jobs where they know the single colour will suitable.

 

[Midas Creative]

Does that mean a designer is responsible for spelling mistakes when the text has been sent by the customer, does that mean if the customer leaves the product out in the rain the printer should replace them because they are wet and damaged. Does it also mean that if the flyers or leaflets dont bring in any extra work the customer should get a refund?

Obviously no it doesn't and like wise any printer worth his salt would not replace products free of charge if the client has made a mistake.Its a sure fire way to go out of business very quickly.

OCP, you took what I was saying out of context, of course a printer isn't always at fault. I was responsding to Adrian's comment about a black printing grey. I understand that if the file where sent in the wrong CMYK breakdowns etc etc this could happen but to the man on the street black is black.

One thing in the print and design industry (probably most other industries too) that I find laughable is that most businesses today like to pass the buck when it comes to issues. You mentioned is a "designer responsible for spelling mistakes" partly yes. The designer is supposed to be there to advise, they are supposed to be the experts in what they do. This includes making sure what you produce for the client is as correct as possible even if they have supplied spelling mistakes.

 

[neildigital]

To put my bit into this thread, I do believe one big issue for all printers is that pricing now gives printers no margin for errors, which forces them to find others to blame.

With prices beaten down so much that we make a fiver here or there, unfortunately us printers have made a bit of a rod for our own backs. Saying that I am always aware my reputation runs on how I handle the problem jobs more than the good jobs, whether I have to accept the lose or not.

Neil

 

[Lasting Designs]

OCP, you took what I was saying out of context, of course a printer isn't always at fault. I was responsding to Adrian's comment about a black printing grey. I understand that if the file where sent in the wrong CMYK breakdowns etc etc this could happen but to the man on the street black is black.

But some black, is blacker, its rich black where the black has in effect been laid onto a base coat and giving it depth...

One thing in the print and design industry (probably most other industries too) that I find laughable is that most businesses today like to pass the buck when it comes to issues. You mentioned is a "designer responsible for spelling mistakes" partly yes. The designer is supposed to be there to advise, they are supposed to be the experts in what they do. This includes making sure what you produce for the client is as correct as possible even if they have supplied spelling mistakes.

And what if they won't pay for proof reading? As much as do correct mistakes if I see them, I won't be taking responsibility for those mistakes when:

• They opt out of a service I consider vital but don't do myself.
• They choose not to see a colour correct proof
• They have left the dialogue so late that it has to go to press without any time to make the changes required

As a matter of course, I advise clients that I don't do proof-reading, but I know people who do, I don't even charge extra for this, prefering to give clients VFM, all I charge for is the time I use and any actual expenses incurred in their name.

I also advise they get a CC proof done and not rely on PDF ones, as with printing deadlines and the impact of ignoring them. If practical, I tend to build-in a couple of days leigh-way to avoid these problems, but that's not remarkable, just a way of avoiding stress for everybody.

It's as much about working smarter than it is to work hard...

 

[adrianwalsh]

To give everyone an update. After much debate with the printer they agree with your comments with my error in not using a rich black. I have therefore made this a rich black and they have given me a 20% discount on the reprint cost.

I guess it is just one of those expensive mistakes!

Thanks for all your comments and help.

 

[OCP]

OCP, you took what I was saying out of context, of course a printer isn't always at fault. I was responsding to Adrian's comment about a black printing grey. I understand that if the file where sent in the wrong CMYK breakdowns etc etc this could happen but to the man on the street black is black.

One thing in the print and design industry (probably most other industries too) that I find laughable is that most businesses today like to pass the buck when it comes to issues. You mentioned is a "designer responsible for spelling mistakes" partly yes. The designer is supposed to be there to advise, they are supposed to be the experts in what they do. This includes making sure what you produce for the client is as correct as possible even if they have supplied spelling mistakes.

i dont think i took this out of context, (see post 21 )you said any printer worth his salt would reprint free of charge even if they WERE NOT at fault.

i still disagree, please let me know what comapny you work for and i'll send over all of my tricky jobs just incase theres a problem with them, of course i'll expect a full reprint free of charge if we get the artwork wrong

 

[OCP]

Sorry meant post 19