Potential xerox lease - where to source the paper so we can work out costs?

[LeafletsInLincs]

Hi,

Firstly i have read previous threads & realise most suggest getting print from a trade supplier. We already do this however cannot compete on turnaround without it being expensive & need to do some of it in house as we turn a lot of work away currently.

We're looking to get a lease on a xerox, have been offered a 550 on lease for £6k over 5 yrs + 4p a colour click (is this good or bad?)

It has 300k on the meter.

Also we're struggling to find a paper supplier, we'd mainly be specialising in flyers so 150gsm gloss would be the norm for us, however from what we've found so far it all seems quite expensive.

Any tips on this would be great.

Cheers

 

[Kev2017]

Sorry I cannot directly help, what I can do is let you know what we did and what to avoid!

We ordered 400gsm A5 gloss paper through a UK website. Rates were good but not unbelievable. They were a drop shipper for a foreign company. After customs problems and many hours emailing and phoning, they arrived and the quality was poor. I would strongly recommend checking where the supplier is getting stock from and ensure that they have what you need in stock.

 

[DavidWH]

Antalis - Although we've stopped using them as they keep moving goal posts on delivery.

We tend to use Rosefox, they're independent, but part of a buying group. Take look for the Lumi ranges of paper. It runs through our 550 no problems.

See if there's a local AIMS member near you http://aimsgroup.org.uk/our-members/

 

[LeafletsInLincs]

Thanks for this info. Paper seems a bit of a minefield cost wise & as a 5 yr printer lease is a fairly big commitment we're trying to get the numbers right.

Having looked at Antalis, i find these prices hard to fathom as the paper alone is twice what we usually charge for flyers. I know the Litho we get is bound to be cheaper.

I suppose we could increase prices for the faster turnaround.

Thanks again

 

[DavidWH]

Expect frequent increases in paper. You should certainly be charging more for a quick turnaround... there's also the time guilotining the flyers down.

One thing to remember is the registration when duplexing isn't anywhere near as good as a litho press, expect 1-2mm of movement, not a problem with well designed artwork, but a PITA when it's not.

 

[richofwombwell]

Why are you leasing and not purchasing the printer outright ?

You can normally save 20/30% if you buy outright and source the cartridges yourself.

Have you looked at other printer options ?

 

[DavidWH]

Because it's a high volume production press, and Xerox provide an excellent maintenance package. The cost per click covers all the toner consumables & maintenance.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Hard to imagine you can make your own Flyers cheaper than a mainstream printer

 

[DavidWH]

You can beat lead times, and on some jobs you can be cheaper if you've the finishing gear. There's also variable data printing, something a litho press would struggle with.

 

[richofwombwell]

Have a look at how much it is to buy the toner and work out the cost per click yourself. Much cheaper.

The colour cartridges cost around £120 and the black toner is 69.95 and do 35.000 pages each.

That works out at a colour cost per click of 1.1 P

So that means your paying 3/4 of the cost for maintenance. . . or 2.9p per print for maintenance alone.

It costs £60 to call an engineer out and £100 for a service.

How many pages are you predicted to be printing a month ?

 

[DavidWH]

We've had replaced:

Feed rollers for high capacity feeder
Motor unit for finishing unit
Colour drums
Fuser units
Fiery RIP rebuilt 3 times.

All fixed same day, or next day latest, with parts shipped from all over the globe.

I'll stick to my contract... it will cost us more in down time than the savings in a bit of toner.

 

[richofwombwell]

Drum units work out at 0.01p per page, fuser units work out a similar cost, second hand 550 costs 2400. Work out 5 services @ 500 total plus average page count of 20,000 per month your looking at saving over 30,000 over 5 years.

Maintenance contracts are for convienece not savings trust me this is my field.

You stick to your contract I'll stick to saving people money.

 

[richofwombwell]

All reputable printer engineer firms operate on next day terms and they acquire the parts for you. You dont really think Xerox use there own staff for maintenance do you ?

They subcontract it out to maintenance firms, makes sense to talk to the maintenance firms direct to me !

 

[DavidWH]

Our Xerox engineers are employed by Xerox. They visit the xerox stores on Trafford Park, manned by Xerox Staff, they're certainly xerox engineers.

 

[richofwombwell]

Well that would be a surprise as alot of the engineers that are subcontracted don there suppliers attire but that's need to me !

 

[DavidWH]

Definately Xerox engineers, used to live near their NW depot. I know other suppliers have their own engineers.

How long Xerox will have their own engineers I don't know as they're all of a certain age

 

[richofwombwell]

Hmm

 

[Nsarah6]

Wow yes that rate is very high at 91 per thousand over 5 years. I can do you a much better rate than that - I work for a leasing company. Will send you a PM with my contact details.

 

[DavidWH]

And yes the lease sounds high, we're paying less than that, and ours has Fiery EX rip, high capacity feed & finisher.

Check what the minimum quarterly clicks are, you may find you have to buy so many per 1/4.

 

[DontAsk]

The colour cartridges cost around £120 and the black toner is 69.95 and do 35.000 pages each.

Take any claims like that with a large dose of Sodium Chloride. What was on each of those 35,000 pages?

 

[LeafletsInLincs]

We have sourced the paper now thanks to help on here.

We would buy but from what i've read a pay per click lease is better as we wouldn't have to be always paying for toner & it can be unpredictable how many pages you get from a cartridge i've read.

However we will be looking into trying to get a better click charge, that was my other concern.

Any printer leasing businesses feel free to contact us

Hard to predict our volume as we turn a fair bit iof work away due to not being able to meet peoples timescale expectations without being pricey. We source around 20,000 a5 a month for people currently but i'm certain this would go up shortly after getting a machine (due to our leaflet distribution clients)

Thanks for your thoughts, it's been very helpful

 

[richofwombwell]

Take any claims like that with a large dose of Sodium Chloride. What was on each of those 35,000 pages?

The manufacturers original specifications. Thats what all lease providers provide out. How anyone can think leasing a machine, paying per page and maintenance and think they are not adding a massive margin bewilders me !

They are not charitable organisations (Myself included) and there is a margin involved !

If you had 40k would you lease a car or buy outright ?

Rich

 

[richofwombwell]

@DontAsk I think the OEM specifications is 5% coverage to provide that estimated yield. @LeafletsInLincs you need to make sure your contract doesnt have a coverage clause / over usage clause either.

If you want a bit of advice regarding printers in the future give me a shout ! I don't use this platform for sales so i'm all up for giving a little impartial advice !

One thing you find with specific providers is they always have an agenda to push through dealer based promotions. Independent dealerships/hardware MPS providers can give you more options and different solutions rather than. "Heres a copier that we have been told to push this month".

Rich

 

[richofwombwell]

We would buy but from what i've read a pay per click lease is better as we wouldn't have to be always paying for toner & it can be unpredictable how many pages you get from a cartridge i've read.

That's completely true and that's why the leasing companies add a 50-60% margin on all click charges.

 

[STDFR33]

If you had 40k would you lease a car or buy outright ?

Rich

It depends how much working capital you need.

 

[DontAsk]

If you had 40k would you lease a car or buy outright ?

I certainly would never spend 40K on a car.

If I needed the certainty of always having a car available, having someone come collect it for servicing, providing a replacement in the meantime, etc., etc., ... then I would consider leasing, but, again, not a 40K car.

 

[BristolBiz]

We lease (or buy) from Xerox & others.

Totally agree that a pay per click maintenance is the way to go. We pay 5p per click on Xerox, but its a different machine - I'd also recommend looking at the C60, cracking piece of kit and you can buy new relatively cheaply if you know where to look. It will do the volumes you are looking for no probs.

One thing - make sure you pay the same click for A3 as A4. Also watch for out for annual increase rates (RPI is good!)

A fine toothcomb is advised when looking at the agreement, sharp rocks everywhere, caveat emptor etc etc.

 

[STDFR33]

I certainly would never spend 40K on a car.

Not even on a Frontera?

 

[DavidWH]

As mentioned above - Check there's no extra charges for oversized (SRA3) sheets, we have seen that from some suppliers.

The cost per click is fairly fixed, depending on the volume you commit to. It's the lease on the machine I'd look to negotiate

If ever I was inclined to drive a £40k car, I'd look to lease it. Why on earth would I take the hit on the depreciation? Keep it for the duration on the warranty, and pass it back. I know someone who bought a 10year old BMW on finance, when they could have leased a more suitable car for less without all the expensive issues they've had

 

[LeafletsInLincs]

If I bought a machine outright, do companies exist that will cover the toner & maintenance for a fee? Or is that just not something that people do?

Also what are people's thoughts on buying from auction sites? I see most listings say it's been maintained by Xerox since purchase which makes me wonder if it's a goer.

We've been offered a low meter km6000 but the finance adds £6k to the price (21k over 5 yrs+clicks)

Most competitors have some form of Xerox & outsource the big jobs so im not going for that.

Its interesting to see the click charge lease Vs buy & source toner yourself debate. I will consider this further, I suppose I'd not be able to tell how long inks last without getting a machine first


Thanks again

 

[DavidWH]

Yes, we bought our first Xerox outright, and had it on service contract.

We had to pay for an FTR, which is basically an inspection of the machine prior to the machine being accepted by them, and the cost of any parts required to bring up to their serviceable standard.

It's a bit of a gamble if you don't know the machines history.

 

[BristolBiz]

I've tried most variations of buying, leasing, new, used & my recommendation would be to talk to a reputable concession (preferably to several) and take a used but relatively up to date machine that they are prepared to offer a service contract on. Konica are also worth talking to, not quite the quality of Xerox, but good value and perfectly adequate quality for business printing.

Buying is always the best option, its the best way of avoiding some of the "fine print" pitfalls of leasing.

The only way I've managed to get down to the "real" price of a machine is to have the dealers competing against eachother.

 

[richofwombwell]

It depends how much working capital you need.

This !

That's true. For financing and depending on initial capital invested.

That is the only reason I see leasing a viable option.

 

[richofwombwell]

Buying is much cheaper, I just supplied 52 machines to my largest customer on a managed print service which is saving them £40,000 a year now in printing.

 

[richofwombwell]

If I bought a machine outright, do companies exist that will cover the toner & maintenance for a fee? Or is that just not something that people do?

Also what are people's thoughts on buying from auction sites? I see most listings say it's been maintained by Xerox since purchase which makes me wonder if it's a goer.

We've been offered a low meter km6000 but the finance adds £6k to the price (21k over 5 yrs+clicks)

Most competitors have some form of Xerox & outsource the big jobs so im not going for that.

Its interesting to see the click charge lease Vs buy & source toner yourself debate. I will consider this further, I suppose I'd not be able to tell how long inks last without getting a machine first


Thanks again

Look at the page life on the cartridge,

There are some wicked machines out there to be honest with you.

Send me a PM with the type of machine your looking for or if you have bought it the specs and I will do some digging for you.

 

[LeafletsInLincs]

We got a lease on a xerox 550, bustled fiery, OHCF, booklet maker for £250 monthly on a 3 year lease. At 5k colour clicks a month.

We discussed this at length so i'm happy no dodgy clauses exist (free installation, no installation charges etc)

We went for this as it includes a lot of training on how to use it properly & as newbies to in house printing this is useful to us.

We're getting it shortly but don't have to pay anything until the new year which is great while we train up on it.

 

[LeafletsInLincs]

Just updating this thread based on our experience of having a production printer now...

Some were saying it was insane to consider leasing a printer & buying refurbished outright was the best way to go but we got a machine that had very low clicks & had been treated very well in a university.

It arrived & the toner was low & there was a slight issue with printing solid colours (banding cyan).

Our contact asked us how we were finding the machine, i mentioned this, thinking it was just due to the machine being moved a fair bit recently & without hesitation a full set of toners & drums was on the way.

Buying these from Xerox directly would of cost £3888.13 so in my opinion paying a few pence per click to cover that is definately the way forward & we're commited fans of the click charge now.

Cheers, Karl

 

[DavidWH]

Glad you got sorted.

May be worth getting a small stock of consumables in, our machine is now on AMR & ASR, which in theory should see us get consumables when the machine needs them, yes we've had to scrounge toner from a local printer to tide us over.

 

[richofwombwell]

If your struggling on the cash flow then they help but I think you'll find if your paying £3881 your cost per clicks will cost £8000 as they do it on a 50% margin. That being said cost per click is a good way to spread the initial outlay if you don't have the capitol to front up and save.

If your provider isn't getting toners across to you in time there is a major issue there and you need to have a word with them !

I send consumables when the customers machine hits 20% so they are never out !!

I think there sending you compatibles leafletinlincs, upload pictures of the stock if they are compatibles your receiving they do not cost 3999 they would only cost £90.

 

[LeafletsInLincs]

We didn't have to pay anything for the replacements, this was included in our 5p clicks.

These were received within 36 hours & they're definitely official xerox & not compatibles as they have the security stickers & I had a ton of official looking emails regarding it.