Postage & Laws

[ROLtd]

I would appreciate a comprehensive site that outlines the legal responsibilities for sellers and not for buyers. We must have some rights somewhere when posting goods.
We use Royal Mail and considering the number of parcels we send out a week its not too bad, but getting compensation for lost parcels is virtually impossible to do effectively.

The burning question at the moment is a parcel sent Special Delivery to a customer that arrives not the next day as promised but the day after. ie. Royal Mail did not hold up their end of the bargain.....(rarely happens with Special Delivery).The customer was not in when delivered and so it sits at her local post office.
The customer says it no good to her now as the event has passed and will not pick it up from the post office. She wants a full refund.....and also says our customer service is s**t and will be writing this on our Facebook page. I cannot retrieve the parcel from the post office as only the customer can get it sent back before the standard three weeks. She refuses to ring them as all of this is our fault.
What are the sellers legal rights? As far as I can see we fulfilled our end of the contract and the intermediate party (Royal Mail) have wrecked the transaction as well as potentially our reputation, at least for that customer.
How do I resolve this?
To save reputation we can just refund and wait for the post office to send the parcel back........but i would still like to know legally how we stand as a seller.

many thanks for any help and direction.
Lizzie Carr

 

[cholland]

We've had a few customers like this, generally if we refund the customer then goes and picks up the item the next day!

 

[Raw Rob]

Legally, you contact with Royal Mail to deliver the item, the customers contract is with you. So if RM mess up, you have to refund the customer and you have to take it up with RM.

 

[japancool]

Legally, you contact with Royal Mail to deliver the item, the customers contract is with you. So if RM mess up, you have to refund the customer and you have to take it up with RM.

^^This.

But even if this were not the case, the Consumer Rights Directive (or whatever it's called) means that customers can cancel orders within 14 days for any reason whatsoever. You do only have to refund the cost of your standard delivery though.

 

[japancool]

We've had a few customers like this, generally if we refund the customer then goes and picks up the item the next day!

We had a customer a few days ago who said a signed for parcel (which had been tracked as signed) had not arrived. I said I'd check with Royal Mail but I couldn't get through to the right department and was sat on hold on an 0845 number, so I told her I'd refund her or send a replacement. She asked for a refund, which I did immediately. The next day, she said the refund had arrived but so had the parcel, said she was very impressed with our customer service and was happy to pay for the goods again.

Restores my faith in humanity slightly.

 

[e-vulture]

Assuming the customer paid extra for the special delivery, you don't have to refund the special delivery part of the transaction, under the new consumer #''£afsd whatever they're called.

 

[ROLtd]

Thank you for your responses. Sounds like I should refund her, but surely not before I have the stones returned? And only she can get them returned to me, unless I wait for Royal Mail to return then refund her.
As japancool says we have had many customers where we replace immediately and then when the parcel does turn up are happy to send back or pay for second lot. This case is different as the customer knows they are sitting in her local post office and will not help us retrieve the parcel.

 

[japancool]

Well, the law says that you have to refund within 14 days from receiving notice of cancellation, not from when you get the goods back.

The obligation of the customer is to make the goods available for return. Arguably, she's not doing this.

 

[ROLtd]

Thank you japancool. I didn't realise folk could cancel an order after it has been posted.....I presume we only refund cost of item not postage and again, if the parcel is on its way first class its going to arrive in their letter box. So they need to post it back. If you refund immediately then you are at their mercy to send it back. Am confused.
Do you know of a place where all the laws are detailed? Then I can put a much more comprehensive postage notice for customers.
Many thanks

 

[japancool]

Thank you japancool. I didn't realise folk could cancel an order after it has been posted.....I presume we only refund cost of item not postage and again, if the parcel is on its way first class its going to arrive in their letter box. So they need to post it back. If you refund immediately then you are at their mercy to send it back. Am confused.
Do you know of a place where all the laws are detailed? Then I can put a much more comprehensive postage notice for customers.
Many thanks

No, you have to refund postage as well. You only have to refund your standard postage costs though, so if she paid extra to have it delivered the next day, you wouldn't have to refund the extra cost.

It's not their responsibility to send it back - they just have to make it available for return. If your terms and conditions say the customer is responsible for the cost of the return, then you can charge them for it, otherwise you have to pay the return cost.

 

[japancool]

You may find this useful:
http://www.out-law.com/topics/commercial/consumer-protection/the-new-consumer-rights-directive/

 

[japancool]

Aha, looking at this:
http://ec.europa.eu/justice/consumer-marketing/files/crd_arc2014_factsheet-consumer_general_en.pdf

It says, and I quote: "Regarding goods, the trader can postpone the reimbursement
until the goods are returned by the consumer or the consumer
provides evidence that these goods have been sent to the trader"

So you can wait until you've got the goods back! At least according to that document.

 

[ROLtd]

So if the parcel is sitting on their door mat they don't have to send it back? Implying I need some sort of courier, that will go fetch the parcel for us? Does Royal Mail do this? and what would the costs be like. Everything seems very much loaded in the buyers favour.

 

[japancool]

So if the parcel is sitting on their door mat they don't have to send it back? Implying I need some sort of courier, that will go fetch the parcel for us? Does Royal Mail do this? and what would the costs be like. Everything seems very much loaded in the buyers favour.

That's right - it's your responsibility to get it collected and returned to you. I think RM (or maybe it's Parcelforce) has a returns service, but I don't know the details. I seem to vaguely remember seeing it on their website.

The customer's responsibility is just to make it available for collection by your agent.

 

[japancool]

By the way, I hate to tell you this, but the returns policy on your website is invalid. As noted above, you must refund the cost of postage. Also, you're giving the customer 7 days to cancel, but the cancellation period is 14 days. In addition, because you've not specified otherwise, you are liable for postage costs. Your returns policy can be more generous that the CRD provides for, but not less.

 

[ROLtd]

Thank you japancool, will go check out the links. To be fair the awkward situations do not occur often but are a headache when they do. It does seem ridiculous that a person can order stuff, then get it refunded as well as have the goods and not be responsible for their error in ordering! What is the logic behind this? Whatever, so long as we know the business can adapt to these few occasions with a confidence in knowing the legal obligations of both parties.

 

[japancool]

Also, are you aware that Royal Mail compensation does not cover jewellery unless sent by Special Delivery?

 

[ROLtd]

and I will revise my postage info.....its actually quite old!

 

[ROLtd]

rhinestones are classed more as beads not jewelry. I don't sell jewelry. parcels are often less than £5 and so folk do not want massive postage costs.

 

[japancool]

rhinestones are classed more as beads not jewelry. I don't sell jewelry. parcels are often less than £5 and so folk do not want massive postage costs.

Cool. Although the compensation issue doesn't actually affect the end customer - if the item doesn't arrive or is damaged in transit, it's your responsibility to refund the customer or replace, and then claim it back from RM or the courier.

 

[14Steve14]

If you don't follow to the letter the new returns regulations its not 14 days but 1 year and 14 days. Make sure you get it right including all the forms and paperwork that you need to send or make available. Also get someone that knows these regulations to confirm that your T&Cs are right. There are many links on the internet about the new rules and regulations you really need to read and understand them.

As I understand them, the onus is now on the customer to return the items or at least to notify you that they are being returned and give proof that this will happen. No attempted return then no refund, and it has to happen within another 14 days I think.

 

[Newchodge]

Surely, if the customer paid for next day delivery, and did not get next day dlivery, you must refund the cost of that as well, as a straightforward breach of contract? It would be a bit rough on the buyer if they paid for a particular service, in order to receive an order for a specific event, did not get the service, therefore had no need for the goods, but still had to pay for the service.

 

[deniser]

Surely, if the customer paid for next day delivery, and did not get next day dlivery, you must refund the cost of that as well, as a straightforward breach of contract? It would be a bit rough on the buyer if they paid for a particular service, in order to receive an order for a specific event, did not get the service, therefore had no need for the goods, but still had to pay for the service.

Yes I agree. You in turn can then get the entire postage amount refunded by Royal Mail because they failed to honour their next day delivery pledge.

I have had similar problems to you with special delivery items not arriving the next day so I no longer offer next day delivery; I offer 1-2 working days and that has got me out of a hole many a time. I tell my customers that I am putting it on a next day service but they always need to allow an extra day in case things go wrong. I would say that RM only fails about 1 in 100 times but the couriers have a much lower success rate - probably only 95 out of 100 times - which could lead to a large amount of disgruntled customers over the course of a year. Better to underpromise.

 

[ROLtd]

If royal mail fail to deliver next day for special delivery then we would refund the customer the excess postage cost. If they no longer needed the item we would ask them to send back for a full refund. This particular customer will not fetch the parcel from the post office. I actually haven't heard from her for over two weeks now. I am still waiting for the return, and no she hasn't picked it up.
I would like any helpful links to the new regulations and then will redo my T&C etc.
Really appreciate all your knowledge and experience, there does seem to be a lot of different interpretations and would like to get a consensus eventually.

 

[Newchodge]

You started off asking about the laws that protect sellers, rather than buyers. In fact you are the buyer in this scenario - you bought a service from Royal Mail, which they failed to supply. You claim against them.

I think you are entirely wrong in expecting your aggrieved customer to spend time going to the post office, queuing, collecting the parcel and then spending money to send it back to you when your customer is the aggrieved party. You have failed to honour your contract with your customer (even though the reason is beyond your control). Why should your customer do anything to retrieve the situation? Refund them in full, and apologise.

 

[japancool]

I agree with Cyndy. The customer's relationship and contract is with you, not the delivery company, and until the point where the goods have been delivered, responsibility for the goods lies with you, not them.

 

[ROLtd]

There is a history here. The customer did not want the parcel sent special delivery as she would not be in. So we split into two parcels and sent them first class against our better judgment, but to provide a good customer service. Unbelievably the customer tells us neither arrived....however I guess it happens and so we resent special delivery on our insistence at at our cost. This parcel was a day late and is the one now sitting in her local post office. If we could retrieve the parcel we would. The whole thing has already cost us a fortune and when we have it back she will get a full refund. Otherwise we have lost two lots of goods and then the refund.......(unless we do get the second parcel back.)
I have been reading the links sent to me about online sales and it seems the customer does have some responsibility on getting the goods back to the vendor in the case of cancellation. We as yet still have not got any of the three parcels back amounting to around £500.

 

[japancool]

I think you're in the wrong here. The customer has not taken delivery of the parcels, so they have no responsibility for them. It's the delivery company - Royal Mail, that has responsibility for them.

As far as the customer is concerned, you haven't fulfilled your contract and they do not have the goods, so they have no obligation to you regarding them.

 

[Newchodge]

I think you're in the wrong here. The customer has not taken delivery of the parcels, so they have no responsibility for them. It's the delivery company - Royal Mail, that has responsibility for them.

As far as the customer is concerned, you haven't fulfilled your contract and they do not have the goods, so they have no obligation to you regarding them.

Agreed. The customer hasn't cancelled. You have failed to fulfill your contract.

 

[ROLtd]

I really don't understand. Royal Mail tried to deliver and left her the card. Royal Mail or any other Courier can only try ad give them to her. If se is not there and won't fetch them what is one supposed to do. She didn't want them sent to work, understandably. So what can we do to actually fulfill our end of the contract.

 

[ROLtd]

I have also rung Royal Mail and the local post office who have actually told me they can only communicate with the addressee, I cannot direct them at all.

 

[Newchodge]

I really don't understand. Royal Mail tried to deliver and left her the card. Royal Mail or any other Courier can only try ad give them to her. If se is not there and won't fetch them what is one supposed to do. She didn't want them sent to work, understandably. So what can we do to actually fulfill our end of the contract.

By the time Royal Mail tried to deliver you were already in breach of contract, as you contracted to deliver the day before, when she was there to accept delivery.

 

[deniser]

If it were me I would just wait until the parcels arrive back with me and then issue the refund. If the customer complains in the meantime I would tell her that she can expedite her refund by being more co-operative ie. telling the RM that she rejects the parcel so it can be returned to sender.

I'm fairly sure that the new regulations tackled the issue of having to refund before the goods came back and that you don't have to unless the goods either come back or the customer can prove that they have been sent so without written evidence that they are on their way back to you you can just wait.

 

[ecoleman]

The new regulations state that you have to refund within 14 days of receiving the goods or receiving proof that the goods have been returned. The ball is in the customers court, she can wait for RM to return to sender or she can collect them and return them to you.

 

[14Steve14]

If she does nothing about getting the items returned and you wait for RM to send them back and it goes over the 14 days cancellation period, do you have to give a refund or can you tell her that her items are with you and they will be stored until she arranges collection.

 

[Hash and Bash]

I think the point here is the item has not been delivered to the customer.
As such, the seller is obliged to fulfil the delivery of the item within 30 days otherwise the customer can consider the contract at an end and the seller would immediately need to make a full refund.